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So many amazing things about this episode, but one low-key thing I really liked was how the talk between Karli and her friend about how SHE should be Captain America and how Karli dismissed the idea out of hand and said the Shield should be destroyed, and then the talk between Karli and Sarah where she says she doesn't give a drat about who Captain America is because she's not part of America by America's will, ergo she doesn't care who their mascot is. The way everyone basically agrees that the Shield and thus the Cap mantle represents America but how that in turn makes it Schrodinger's Symbolism because none of these characters can look at America without being warped by the baggage its left them with is really fun stuff. Everyone can only see one slice of the picture because that slice is all that's relevant to their lived experience. One of the reasons Steve worked (both in and out of universe) as Captain America was that he was both an incredible idealist and an incredible realist, he had total clarity on what American is supposed to be but never let himself turn a blind eye when he saw things incompatible with that vision, regardless of what it would cost him to say "No, YOU move." Now we have all these people who each have a piece of the puzzle but none of them can bring it together because they're just too damaged. And then of course, you have Sam, who had a ton of good moments in this episode, but the cherry was maybe the most important thing he's said in the entire show: "You know, my sister's waiting for that exact same answer." In other words, while every other Super Soldier in this show is having their ideals warped by their scars, Sam's problem is that he can't settle on what he believes. His moral compass is the only one out of the lot of them that hasn't been completely broken by personal tragedy, but rather than use it like Steve did he's done nothing but demure and stay in his comfort zone. I have to imagine that Episode 5 is going to be when he finally sits down, probably with Isiah, and really answers why so he can either find his way past it or synthesize something from all the directions he's getting pulled in and become who all these broken people need him to be
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Apr 11, 2021 11:11
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A) I think a full bore decapitation loses some of the intensity of caving a man’s face in with the shield. Actually cutting someone’s head completely off is the work of a serial killer. Beating a man to death because they just murdered your closest (only?) friend makes way more sense. The implication of ultra-violence and the bloodstained shield are Way Way more impactful than seeing some poor dudes head rolling around on the pavement. B) Also reading this interview with Wyatt Russel and he’s making it sound like Mackie and Stan are ultra-BFF who are constantly prancing each other and making up silly lies about each other for interviews but playing it with a straight face. The funniest story is how during a particularly boring and rough interview Mackie kept trying to get Sebastian to show off his abs because “we all know that’s what the people want” and he tries to go for Seb’s shirt and Seb just blushes and they do the mincing effeminate hand swat thing at each other like a couple of little kids. That’s the sort of thing that gets me more emotionally invested in a show, knowing that the comraderie and chemistry is genuine. Two badass action hero’s being silly dorks with each other all day on set is probably why they work so well together on screen. Scuttlebutt is that this is behavior normalized by Chris Evans and Mark Ruffalo, two people who are also ostensibly giant sweetie pies IRL. Steve’s super soldier serum behaves a lot like magic, so I have no idea how he learns to fight, but Bucky has potentially hundreds of hours of field operations between dying and breaking free of his hypnosis. His combat experience is probably unmatched, he was operating behind the scenes for almost a hundred years, but were never given a clear picture of how often he’s used. Seems like all the loving time. Bust Rodd fucked around with this message at 14:06 on Apr 11, 2021 |
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Apr 11, 2021 14:03
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It’s both sad and funny that in his limited screentime, Lamarr came over as a far more worthy candidate to replace Steve than Walker ever managed. If not Sam then they should have given it to him but we all know why they didn’t, ugh.
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Apr 11, 2021 14:06
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Sentinel Red posted:It’s both sad and funny that in his limited screentime, Lamarr came over as a far more worthy candidate to replace Steve than Walker ever managed. If not Sam then they should have given it to him but we all know why they didn’t, ugh. He also immediately jumps on with "hell yes I would take the Serum" which is the obvious "aha you are not worthy" throughpoint. People that want power shouldn't have it, people that respect it don't want it (Sam). His conversation with Walker also shows that they Did War Crimes Together in Afghanistan or whatever.
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Apr 11, 2021 14:10
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Oasx posted:Marvel should really just do a cheap show without superheroes that is all about the post-snap and post-blip world.
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Apr 11, 2021 14:36
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cyclical posted:I've always assumed the big difference between the Winter Soldier and Bucky Barnes is that the former does not care (doesn't have the capacity to care, really, had it brutally stripped away from him) about collateral or the people he's fighting. He has a mission, the mission is to kill, he's not going to stop until he's done or stopped himself. Whereas Bucky does give a poo poo, doesn't want to kill anyone anymore, and actually has feelings whenever he does hurt anyone. So in that sense, Bucky is "weaker" as his those-pesky-human-feelings self and not operating at 100% of his considerable capabilities. Yeah, I think you go back to that Winter Soldier vs Cap/Sam/Natasha fight and he's basically a Terminator. Just unrelenting and merciless. When Bucky had to play Winter Soldier again in Madripor he has to shift back into that ruthlessness of just snapping arms and caving in skulls without any regard. Its enough to give Sam pause. But with the Flag Smasher fight we see the difference. He's a guy who single handily took on an Avengers trio. The Winter Soldier could have wiped the floor with the Flag Smashers with time and space. But he's controlling himself because he doesn't want to hurt people anymore. He doesn't want to be the Winter Soldier. Its a random thing but I'm actually curious what he calls himself when this is all done. Winter Soldier is a past he wants to be free of and the White Wolf is something linked to Wakanda that he almost seems to have lost the right to. Its why I'm actually kind of getting comfortable with the idea of him adopting a new/familiar identity when this "who is worthy of carrying the shield?" thing resolves. Sam is worthy and in many ways as close to Steve as we've got, but the show is doing a good job selling me that Bucky is closer to it than I thought and might need it more.
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Apr 11, 2021 14:53
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https://twitter.com/theFLICKpick/status/1380798163976589313 EDIT: Beaten twistedmentat posted:People were wondering how US Agent killing a helpless, defeated enemy in broad daylight in front of a ton of witnesses is going to play out, but real life is already giving us a glimpse of how it will be handled Assepoester fucked around with this message at 16:03 on Apr 11, 2021 |
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Apr 11, 2021 15:01
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Bucky literally beats Captain America in single combat at the end of Winter Soldier but then fails his Will save at the end from... loving Steve so much  that he mentally frags out. If there's one thing the movies make super clear it's that Bucky is almost certainly the most lethal person on screen at any given time. The knife sequence from TWS is so iconic that this episode felt like a really direct reference to that, with Walker drawing attention to it themselves. Bucky LOVES bringing a knife to a gunfight.
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Apr 11, 2021 15:11
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clicking on his twitter feed, he's serious, and so are lots of other people gonna be a yikesaroo from me
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Apr 11, 2021 15:11
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Soul Glo posted:clicking on his twitter feed, he's serious, and so are lots of other people Turns out there are still a lot of fascists in the world
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Apr 11, 2021 15:25
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Before I'm going to accept any sort of redemption for Karli, I'm going to need to see her show some sort of remorse.
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Apr 11, 2021 15:29
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Nail Rat posted:Before I'm going to accept any sort of redemption for Karli, I'm going to need to see her show some sort of remorse. ...She does have doubts and remorse though? She's consistently shown to be conflicted over if what she is doing is right. She doesn't tell the other Flag Smashers she planted a bomb because she didn't want the guilt on them, when she threatened Sam's sister she did not maniacally smile or rub her hands with glee: she has a pained look on her face. It was a means to an end to get Sam to come to her, and a threat she would never actually follow up on. Her allies constantly reassure her and assuage her obvious guilt of the righteousness of her cause, and Walker's idiocy unfortunately erases any doubts she has or progress Sam makes with her. Even when she says "those people were roadblocks and I would do it again", she reacts in horror with Sam to what she said and tries to immediately backpedal. It's pretty clear Sam was reaching Karli and could have talked her down, if Walker wasn't constantly upping the ante and hurting her people in his reckless pursuit of Cap's legacy and surpassing him. Karli is infinitely more capable of remorse than John Walker at this point.
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Apr 11, 2021 15:56
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Soul Glo posted:His conversation with Walker also shows that they Did War Crimes Together in Afghanistan or whatever. I've been seeing this take a lot and I think many people are misunderstanding what Walker meant when he said his M(s)oH remind him of the worst day of his life. Getting a MoH and being alive is rather rare because they're usually given to people who have saved their comrades through selfless, often suicidal, action. A recipient who's still alive today earned one in Afghanistan by literally jumping on a grenade to save his buddy. Another received it after his 8 man squad was ambushed and at the end of that action 5 were wounded, 1 was already dead and 1 would die in surgery. Walker (and Hoskins) were likely in similar circumstances when Walker earned his medals and very likely saw buddies, probably more than a few, die. That's what the medals remind him of, not war crimes. Maybe the war crimes came before or after but he wouldn't have earned a MoH citation while executing civilians or something.
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Apr 11, 2021 15:58
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Karli's definitely shown signs of doubts and remorse. She's probably gonna have to have a full come to Jesus moment but I expect she will. Like the natural conflict is now Karli's guilt over killing Hoskins vs Walker's thirst for revenge.
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Apr 11, 2021 15:59
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BlackIronHeart posted:I've been seeing this take a lot and I think many people are misunderstanding what Walker meant when he said his M(s)oH remind him of the worst day of his life. they also talked about how the "things we did to be awarded those medals felt a long way from being right" also Walker has his special helmet for jumping on grenades with
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Apr 11, 2021 16:06
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Bust Rodd posted:The knife sequence from TWS is so iconic that this episode felt like a really direct reference to that, with Walker drawing attention to it themselves. Bucky LOVES bringing a knife to a gunfight.
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Apr 11, 2021 16:12
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Sir DonkeyPunch posted:they also talked about how the "things we did to be awarded those medals felt a long way from being right" Yeah, the US War in Afghanistan, which has been going on for 20 years, is very unpopular even with the soldiers fighting in it so I'm not surprised if they didn't feel right just by dint of being there. Walker's special grenade helmet still means someone was chucking live grenades at him and that's going to ruin your day, regardless.
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Apr 11, 2021 16:16
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Asking Karli for remorse is a big ask because she's essentially a civilian fighting a global regime, even with superpowers. holding her to same standard as the organization she fights or any other character is a joke because of the sheer power imbalance. It's also why Zemo's take on her doesn't land. She got superpowers to even out an uneven fight. Ten years down the road, maybe, but today she fights dirty because the other option is 'lose'. Same for when Sam or viewers say poo poo like 'I can't agree with your methods.' Onus is on him now to find a different way that actually works or he's no different than Walker, just more polite.
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Apr 11, 2021 16:26
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Rockstar Massacre posted:Asking Karli for remorse is a big ask because she's essentially a civilian fighting a global regime, even with superpowers. holding her to same standard as the organization she fights or any other character is a joke because of the sheer power imbalance. It also allows someone like Sam and even Lamar to be able to stand a shot in a one on one fight because they are basically trying to brawl and aren't trained soldiers. The only advantage they have is their strength. I have a lot of thoughts on this episode but on the one hand it sucks that Battlestar had to die and I think there was some room to explore that he is also a blackman who chooses to wear and defend the flag. Walker is an interesting character because I get the feeling he doesn't really want to be such a shithead but knows no other way but to be a shithead. I also like they are drawing a parallel to police with Walker. Won't listen to anyone, often escalates situations that don't need to be escalated, thinks he is above the law. I also think they are doing a good job of saying Steve is a product of having such a black and white philosophy to fight. Nazi's are bad but the modern world is not clear like that. Kylie is sympathetic but also kinda of a mobster at the end of the day. Daniel Bruhl is killing it too. Love it all.
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Apr 11, 2021 16:52
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Rockstar Massacre posted:Asking Karli for remorse is a big ask because she's essentially a civilian fighting a global regime, even with superpowers. holding her to same standard as the organization she fights or any other character is a joke because of the sheer power imbalance. pretty much which is why it’s been obvious this where we were going since the jump. a marvel movie is not going to arrive at the correct conclusion that the revolutionary is just the hero here. the furthest it will go is that their cause is sympathetic, but their methods are bad because “they’re killing people” or they’re doing it with power they shouldn’t have (power that their oppressors already have). their refusal to accept our hero’s vague promises of “trying to talk to somebody” constitutes a commitment to their bloody path and the necessity that they be defeated, though regretfully. because while of course we ALL agree the status quo is terrible, you must be patient and seek a peaceful, incremental solution, lest you become as bad as your enemies (conveniently, the enemies here refers to us, the ones telling you not to engage in any revolution against us, but don’t let that distract from our point)
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Apr 11, 2021 16:56
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https://i.imgur.com/V70oJb3.mp4 He does a pretty cool, blink-and-you'll-miss-it knife flip here too. Sebastian Stan has gotten pretty good with knives.
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Apr 11, 2021 17:01
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Bucky rocks and id watch a whole show that’s exclusively him whipping rear end
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Apr 11, 2021 17:05
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Did Steve die off-camera? I wouldn't expect him to be doing any action or anything, but you'd think one or both of the main characters would have consulted him at some point.
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Apr 11, 2021 17:05
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mastajake posted:Did Steve die off-camera? I wouldn't expect him to be doing any action or anything, but you'd think one or both of the main characters would have consulted him at some point. His fate is unknown atm. Some think he lives on the moon.
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Apr 11, 2021 17:10
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I mean last they saw the guy he was wielding Mjolnir standing toe to toe with Thanos and leading an army of every badass they've ever seen (and quite a few they never knew about), then he time-traveled and made himself an old man. He gave Sam the shield and basically said "I'm done." He's on such a high pedestal to them I imagine they wouldn't go to him unless the scenario was literally apocalyptic, and while stuff in the series has stakes nothing is on apocalypse-level yet.
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Apr 11, 2021 17:11
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They purposely avoided the question with that whole "I heard he's on the moon/I can tell you he's definitely not on the moon" conversation. They probably just don't want to say anything definitive incase they can get Evans back later. And really, the show's about moving on past Cap so them just calling him would be a backwards step.
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Apr 11, 2021 17:11
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mastajake posted:Did Steve die off-camera? I wouldn't expect him to be doing any action or anything, but you'd think one or both of the main characters would have consulted him at some point. I think it is more that Evans is done playing Cap and it would take a huge boatload of money to get him back that Disney is not willing to pay.
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Apr 11, 2021 17:13
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Ah makes sense. Also, I missed the moon conversation.
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Apr 11, 2021 17:18
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Spacebump posted:he lives on the moon. Here you go, I fixed it.
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Apr 11, 2021 17:20
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didn’t we see his funeral? I assumed he was dead
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Apr 11, 2021 17:20
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Mandrel posted:didn’t we see his funeral? I assumed he was dead I don't know if you're thinking of Tony Stark's funeral in Endgame or the shield retirement press conference/ceremony in the first episode of this, but neither was Cap's funeral. mastajake posted:Ah makes sense. Also, I missed the moon conversation. It was an aside in that first episode conversation between Sam and the other guy we haven't seen since. It was basically a big info dump with him first bringing up the Flag Smashers and then asking Sam what really happened to Cap. The implication is that no one actually knows whether Cap is dead or not. He's just gone and the people closest to him are staying quiet as to what that means. STAC Goat fucked around with this message at 17:26 on Apr 11, 2021 |
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Apr 11, 2021 17:21
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I feel like they talk about him in the past tense. "If Steve was wrong about you then he was wrong about me" doesn't sound like he's talking about someone who's still living. But it's also only been about six months since Endgame, so,
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Apr 11, 2021 17:24
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yeah I guess I was thinking of the shield ceremony thing
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Apr 11, 2021 17:26
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Soul Glo posted:I feel like they talk about him in the past tense. I mean that could still just be specifically referring to those events in the past tense. “If he was wrong about you” (when he gave you the shield) then “he was wrong about me” (when we were in Captain America: The Winter Soldier and Captain America: Civil War together)
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Apr 11, 2021 17:29
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I dunno if he was alive Bucky could be like "I talked to Steve yesterday, and he seemed sad you gave his shield away. Said he wasn't mad, just disappointed."
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Apr 11, 2021 17:33
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Are we sure if Hoskins is actually dead? We saw Rhodey was unconscious and unresponsive when he was injured in Civil War. I understand the way Walker acted comes off that way but Tony blasted Falcon and Friday even told him that Rhodes was still alive and Tony’s a decent guy.
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Apr 11, 2021 17:37
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Anita Dickinme posted:Are we sure if Hoskins is actually dead? We saw Rhodey was unconscious and unresponsive when he was injured in Civil War. I understand the way Walker acted comes off that way but Tony blasted Falcon and Friday even told him that Rhodes was still alive and Tony’s a decent guy. Blood coming out of his mouth and not moving is tv/movie indicator of dead dead.
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Apr 11, 2021 18:09
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TV taught me that we all have a balloon full of red corn syrup on the back of our heads and if you fall backwards and it pops you die
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Apr 11, 2021 18:13
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I know you said mouth but Rhodes had it coming out of his nose.
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Apr 11, 2021 18:14
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Spacebump posted:His fate is unknown atm. Some think he lives on the moon. He's in space with Fury. But not on the moon.
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Apr 11, 2021 18:15
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