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Gaius Marius posted:I'll give it a shot, I have a real feeling at the end of this I'm gonna have a real Umineko shaped hole in my heart. You'll 100% like Fata Morgana, so definitely play that. There's actually a decent chance you'll end up liking it more than Umineko. The only reason I rank Umineko higher than it is that I feel like Umineko has more depth to its characters, but that's largely a personal judgement. With most other VNs, if someone said they were better than Umineko I'd just call them wrong, but there's at least room for reasonable disagreement with something like FM.
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Apr 9, 2021 22:35
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Ytlaya posted:You'll 100% like Fata Morgana, so definitely play that. There's actually a decent chance you'll end up liking it more than Umineko. The only reason I rank Umineko higher than it is that I feel like Umineko has more depth to its characters, but that's largely a personal judgement. I should go back to that sometime, I played through the first story and wasn't super into it but people in this thread said that the first story is not great so that's probably an unfair thing to judge it on
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Apr 9, 2021 23:16
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I liked the first story the second was okay but the third is a slog
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Apr 9, 2021 23:35
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Tokyo Zodiac Murders Conclusion thoughts Okay So now that I’m not trying to finish the novel and get to sleep before work I can explain my thinking on the novel better. Some background, I’ve obviously been reading Umineko so I was primed for the idea of an “Invisible” person added to the cast. Honestly I try and keep my options open in my brain when I’m reading a work, simultaneously holding multiple competing theories and testing each against the data that I have. Way back in the Day Orenronen mentioned the genre of Japanese fiction that the novel belongs to. His post in the thread reminded me of that post in the Dangan Ronpa thread, he mentioned in that thread that the genre was based on allowing you to solve the case through deduction from very early on in the story. Armed with this I realized I needed to pay very clear attention to the opening of the Novel. When we look at the note left in the studio quite a few things stick out. I straight thought that the note wasn’t of Heikichi’s hand, this is only based on gut feeling 1. It makes zero sense for the note to have been left if Heikichi faked his death and was the culprit. If his motivation was art, so much so that he neglected his family why would he bother with what the world thought of that art 2.He randomly Asides that He wants to give to Tae, we then see this as the final result once the murders are over. Why would someone who stole her child and reduced her to poverty care. This lead me to believe that It must’ve been Tae or her Daughter that Commited the crime. Probably the daughter since she’s not like 60 3. The Mannequin stuff and the Art gallery gave me the real feeling of a red herring, The gallery owner and her son should have no motive to kill heikichi, unless you think they also were into the idea of creation of the Azoth, I maintained this theory in the back of my mind, but It seemed very unlikely the further I got into the book. 5.The Birth mark is what really hosed me, Her putting that in the note really hosed my reasoning later, Allowing the Takiko culprit theory to fall away from my brain 6. Once the murder of the Azoth was revealed I realized that It almost had to be one of the Daughters. Ironically It turns out she didn’t even have to poison herself, although that did help me in my reasoning. When I put the daughter culprit theory in the lead, we had a problem when they all died. So it becomes either abandon the theory or figure out how one of them survives. There’s basically two ways to get around that. a. A body double, this seems like a more obvious solution, but a digression. Early in the Novel they mention Heikichi burns his foot, I had thought this was a thing to determine his own body in his death. However it never comes up, rather I think this is to make us pay attention to the Girls feet. They’re all ballerinas which have absolutley hosed feet. Finding and killing a separate ballerina that could also match the body type of one of the girls seems real iffy b. So then we need to have one less death. Looking at the Pieces(lol) of the crime. I thought how can we have one less body than it seems. I started thinking of the Pig prank. The one where you label three pigs 1,2,4 and let them loose. We only assume the existence of the phantom pig, I also thought of that Optical illusion I posted earlier, the trick with the extra square is that one of the Triangles isn’t actually a triangle. So I thought If I need an extra daughter for my lead theory that fits the outcome of Tae receiving the land. Then I need to have the crime not be as it seems. So at this point I’m 70% of the way there, when it really clicked is when I used a technique unique to literature. Because Books are a written work and not a confluence of events like real life. We can read backwards to forwards with the logic. The note says if the Azoth then Tae will become taken care of. This happens so using backwards logic the Azoth must be complete, how then can a being made of the parts of the girls be made, If I need one of the girls alive to be the culprit. Well what if we create that missing square by moving the “Triangle” around and create the Azoth of a living girl. I think I got complacent after I solved that puzzle though, My solution to Heikichi’s real death was almost similar to how it actually happened. Rather than kill him in the room and lock the door that way I assumed she had the door locked initially after modeling for her dad and then threw a rock or something tied to the rope and killed him that way, the force than moved the cot and she retrieved the rock and made the foot prints, 80% there. Kuze’s murder I totally hosed up, even after the policeman's note. I initally assumed it was unrelated, then after the note realized it wasn’t and that it supported my theory. Who else would want the entire family dead or in prison than one of the daughters, but I couldn’t figure out the rather simple trick of Taeko dressing as Kuze. The author even gives us a hint by mentioning body doubles with Heikichi’s brother. My semi working theory was that Kuze was already dead and was being marionetted and ventriloquistized by The culprit but I mean what the gently caress is that theory. I noticed the contradiction of the woman being dead before the semen entered her in the police report and the officer saying she was alive. Plus Kiyoshi’s friend mentions transferring the semen. I legit feel stupid for not thinking of this Anyways I don’t know what the whole digression in Kyoto and the mannequin deal was. I ended up following some real fake Garden maze’s with that thinking just like Kiyoshi’s friend. Once Kiyoshi said they could’ve solved it right when they got to Kyoto. I realized my old theory was pretty much there, If I had taken the time to reread the note and noticed that Tae wanted to open the shop in Kyoto I probably would’ve gotten it, or if I realized the birthmark trick. But I already had to work in 2 hours and had no sleep so I just powered through. Anybody not reading the spoilers the books worth a look, Umineko and a few other Japanese works I've seen clearly took some Inspo
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Apr 9, 2021 23:44
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Gaius Marius posted:Tokyo Zodiac Murders Conclusion thoughts Well I think it's great that you got it, I thought about it for like 10 minutes then went "nope, don't think I can get it" then wanted to know what happened, then when I saw the solution I was like "yeah no way I was gonna get that", haha. I probably could have guessed who if I thought about it though just not how.
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Apr 10, 2021 00:29
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Umineko 5 Aw poo poo man I have to flip the script, Battler ain't Dante BEatrice is, And i've got to guide her to heaven. I'm loving in Virgilla is really mixing Metaphors here, are we talking Pandora or Dante Say it Battler! Ushiromiya Battler, Game Master, the man who will become either God or the Devil! You do nothing but Dissapoint battler kun BEato what, Berk said Eirika was WITH NANJO not that he was unguilty, she convinced him to merc George and Sherry Eirikia talks a big game for a fourth rate detective, Dupin, Sherlock, Poirot, or even Miss Marple would have this all wrapped up in a bow already These girls bullying Beato will feel my wrath soon enough They're gonna pin the Murders on Natsuhi, Now is the Time battleman Acheivene your truye form, ascend to the Game Master battleman and show these witches whats what! Youve done nothing but dissapoint me, It's time to show the world that you can make the impossible plausible Do someting you oval office, stop letting Natsuhi get bullied Eirika master detective can only prove something using witches and red, Me an absolute mad lad uses facts and logic to destroy her Eirkia truly turned this into a third rate mystery by accusing the red herring. If she read the literature she'd know to dig deeper, what a pathertic piece loving Dianor? BATTLER STOP BEING A WORTHLESS oval office ANT HELP YOUR GIRLFRIEND YESYSYSSYSSYSYSYSYESYSYSS Dp ot battler end these fools Hol ip real shitm waht did battleman promise beato? I'm Gonana scream EIKIALFK DID IT Knox 7 Never read the loving LITERATURE YOUR WELA NATT:ER DENUY DENU DENY WEEAAEAK CMON BNATTLER DO IT END THIS NONSENSE CHADTTLER!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! FICK nbattler become a withc quick It's okay dianor I thought battleman was also more competent Gaius Marius fucked around with this message at 06:39 on Apr 11, 2021 |
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Apr 11, 2021 01:33
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This ????? Is hype as hell goddamn https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yHTIL7HjfWQ Gaius Marius fucked around with this message at 02:39 on Apr 12, 2021 |
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Apr 12, 2021 02:04
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I've been playing through Higurashi blind, finished chapter (episode?) 3 and my thoughts so far can be summarized as: These games have some great stuff in them, but holy poo poo please stop being weird and gross about the child characters so I can enjoy the good parts. The fourth-wall afterparty for chapter 3 suggests that Keiichi will either not be present or have a much smaller role for chapter 4, so hopefully that'll result in less of that poo poo
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Apr 12, 2021 03:10
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I'm on the ??? part of chapter 5 also and I really feel like the fact that I have no idea what the gently caress is going on is really undercutting what I guess is supposed to be some sort of emotional scene based on the way battler is acting and the music and whatnot edit; ah gently caress me it's the bunnies again Stefan Prodan fucked around with this message at 03:38 on Apr 12, 2021 |
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Apr 12, 2021 03:35
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Apr 12, 2021 03:52
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yea that's where I'm at but because I the player don't know, I am not sharing in whatever battler is flippin out about I guess I should put the rest in spoilers but like because I really still have no idea what the framework of the metafiction part of this is, or who like all of the witches are supposed to be, or what this courtroom cathedral poo poo is, or what the rules even are as far as like ok so beatrice is disappearing in the metafiction world, can she not just come back or some poo poo, it just kinda makes it hard to get into. I feel like I'm just along for the ride and I'm interested in seeing what the explanation is of the stuff that happened but I'm not super into the like drawn out contrived poo poo with all the witches and the bunny sisters and the sexy black hole lady and all that. I'm still holding out that there's some big explanation that wraps all this stuff up that would be satisfying to me but I keep getting LOST vibes where I just keep going "I can't imagine how this is gonna end in a way that will be satisfying to me" I mean so far it seems like everything is based on people's like interpretations after the fact of some set of events that happened on oct 4 1986, and they are doing some rashomon poo poo where they are like all offering different interpretations of what could have happened I guess? but I mean I don't know that interacts with the like "final" result that appears to have come from the 3rd game that results in Eva surviving and leaving the island and whatnot, I guess that implies there wasn't just one set of events that happened on the island that people are describing later because some of them have Eva dying so I dunno. I just feel like so much of this poo poo has been built up that it's really gonna have to do some work to land it, but maybe it does and that's why everyone likes it so much Stefan Prodan fucked around with this message at 04:02 on Apr 12, 2021 |
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Apr 12, 2021 03:56
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I had my doubts but episode five really lived up to it's answers title. I'll post my thoughts tomorrow but after all is said and done at the end of the ep there's only about four riddles that haven't been fully solved to my liking. And applying some of the techniques from ep 5 I think I can get a good approximation to the answer. If I'm correct ryukushi also did something loving devious with the decalogue, and something I wouldn't have noticed if I hadn't just finished tokyo zodiac murders. This in regards to the epithet.
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Apr 12, 2021 04:01
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Stefan Prodan posted:yea that's where I'm at but because I the player don't know, I am not sharing in whatever battler is flippin out about 6 leans in harder on this feeling to the point where I’m trying to reread 1-6 before tackling 7. I seriously feel like some part of my brain has figured out the shape of this thing, the basic curves of what’s maybe going on and something about what it’s saying overall, but I keep getting hung up on minor details and stuff. Plus it took me over a week to get through all the pre-murder “lol titties” stuff in Episode 1. Battler is so gross until the chips are down.
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Apr 12, 2021 04:03
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Rockman Reserve posted:6 leans in harder on this feeling to the point where I’m trying to reread 1-6 before tackling 7. I seriously feel like some part of my brain has figured out the shape of this thing, the basic curves of what’s maybe going on and something about what it’s saying overall, but I keep getting hung up on minor details and stuff. well presumably that story also is just one telling of the events so it's just being told by someone who thinks battler is a real perv and that may not have actually happened ever if it makes you feel better!! I guess one other thing that made some of the episodes drag for me too like episode 3 it's just like, why do I have to read 20 minutes about like beatrice like dropping a castle on someone's head or whatever they were doing, like none of that is really happening so why do I give a poo poo, I don't think you get any particular clues from like the "eva beatrice" killing rosa in all sorts of sadistic ways that drags on forever but maybe I'm wrong I mean I'm really givin this thing an honest chance I'm gonna play through to the end there's just a bunch of parts where I don't know how they are gonna like make me think they were good in retrospect but that would be cool if that happens Stefan Prodan fucked around with this message at 04:09 on Apr 12, 2021 |
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Apr 12, 2021 04:06
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I mean that part is preceded by a very extensive, detailed, drawn out monologue and set of conversations between Battler, Gertrude, and Cornelia about virtually everything you're saying here, including how to view things like magic/witches and their game board, the way the meta aspects interact with the mystery and the what/why/hows of it all, and then most pointed of all the hint that Battler (i.e. you, the player) already has all the clues from the other games.Your questions and confusions are therefore ostensibly addressed by doing just that, and reviewing everything you think you do or do not know about the story, the setting, the cast and their various motivations, etc.
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Apr 12, 2021 04:12
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Stefan Prodan posted:well presumably that story also is just one telling of the events so it's just being told by someone who thinks battler is a real perv and that may not have actually happened ever if it makes you feel better!! The game pieces cannot act outside the realm of what would be plausible for their own person's, we see this demonstrated by battler jumping out the window when lambda is controlling him. Even if she played his part, it was something that he could've done given his abilities and psychology To bring this to a different level this must hold true because forgeries where the characters act discordant with their true selves couldn't rise to the level of magic. They wouldn't be believable. And belief is what's powering the magic in the series At least that's how it seems
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Apr 12, 2021 04:17
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Nate RFB posted:I mean that part is preceded by a very extensive, detailed, drawn out monologue and set of conversations between Battler, Gertrude, and Cornelia about virtually everything you're saying here, including how to view things like magic/witches and their game board, the way the meta aspects interact with the mystery and the what/why/hows of it all, and then most pointed of all the hint that Battler (i.e. you, the player) already has all the clues from the other games.Your questions and confusions are therefore ostensibly addressed by doing just that, and reviewing everything you think you do or do not know about the story, the setting, the cast and their various motivations, etc. I guess, I mean I'm not really honestly interested enough to try and figure it out, there's so much padding and like not interesting scenes especially in the first 2 episodes that there's no way I'm rereading this. I just want to read the thing and see what the explanation is and see if it's satisfying in terms of going "ahh I could have gotten that if I had thought about it", that's enough for me with mysteries, I don't really need to like actually figure them out, I just want to see that the chain of logic was clever and that you could do it if you tried. Like that's pretty much what I did the book that Gaius and I just read, the Tokyo Zodiac Murders. I got to the explanation and went ah yeah that's cool, that's a clever solution, the pieces were all there for me. I do remember the scene you're talking about I just don't remember the details of all of it I mean from what I gather so far from the Ange chapter and like her reading Maria's diary it seems like magic is just like sort of a world you create for yourself to deal with realities you can't face, and that this is all like someone or some group of people's way of trying to like parse some actual real bad poo poo that happened. But I don't know how to reconcile that with like the fact that the Ange reality in the future clearly has one outcome where Eva lived, and so I don't get how you'd reconcile that with tellings where Eva dies, unless you say that there are also multiple futures, which means that there is no actual objective like "thing that happened" to figure out. So yeah I dunno I mean I'm just along for the ride and I'll see how this ends up I guess but so far it just seems like a handful of like good vignettes here and there bookended by a lot of like magical anime bullshit fights that go on too long, considering that I don't feel like they are in and of themselves clues to anything. On the other hand I get why the pacing would be weird if you started these fights and then just ended them quickly so I mean I don't really know how to reconcile that, I'm not an author, haha. I just have found myself mashing enter really fast through most of them because like I just do not care about the bunny sister firing their big ol thread or Kanon fighting a goat or whatever is goin on in these stories that didn't really actually happen Stefan Prodan fucked around with this message at 04:35 on Apr 12, 2021 |
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Apr 12, 2021 04:23
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Gaius Marius posted:
maybe that's just how people see Battler though but in reality he would never ACTUALLY try to grab his girl cousin's boobs but that's just how the person telling the story sees him
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Apr 12, 2021 04:25
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Rockman Reserve posted:
You didn't even realize it but you just gave me a huge piece of the puzzle. Remember in five when battler is talking to virgil's and says his first girlfriend ended up with another guy? Also yeah battler is literally the most frustrating protag in any medium I've ever seen.
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Apr 12, 2021 04:46
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Procrastine posted:I've been playing through Higurashi blind, finished chapter (episode?) 3 and my thoughts so far can be summarized as: These games have some great stuff in them, but holy poo poo please stop being weird and gross about the child characters so I can enjoy the good parts. The fourth-wall afterparty for chapter 3 suggests that Keiichi will either not be present or have a much smaller role for chapter 4, so hopefully that'll result in less of that poo poo The weird poo poo mostly stops there, IIRC.
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Apr 12, 2021 04:53
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Yeah, chapter 3 was the only one that had me remarking on feeling weirded out in that way itt.
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Apr 12, 2021 06:22
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There was a message from the author somewhere, where he explains that all "fair" mystery novels have a scene where the detective goes "I've figured it out". This shows the reader that all necessary information has been presented and that the solution will be revealed soon, so if they want to figure it out themselves, they can do it now. It was generally accepted that the first for chapters of Umineko would be the "question" arcs, and the following 4 the "answer" arcs, like he did with Higurashi, but since he was still seeing lots of posts to the tune of "don't bother, we don't have enough information yet", he decided to include this in episode 5.
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Apr 12, 2021 11:39
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It kind of sounds you're just really not up for what Umineko brings to the table. Which to be clear is not a bad thing or something you're wrong about, but it feels like it's just not set up to be something that is going to work for you. It's a story that is a love letter to detective fiction and murder mysteries in general, while it certainly extremely possible to enjoy it as a passive participant it has always been presented as a story where its readers could be constantly thinking and discussing it. Hence why so much of the meta aspects have been about the relationship between reader and author, or Ryukishi07's own commentary and changes made on the fly as the episodes were getting released. I think it's a little bit of an exaggeration to say that one would need to go back and actually reread all of the older chapters but also having the story go in one ear and out the other is going to leave you pretty much perpetually fumbling forward as well. Maybe the original format of its release where there were multiple months in between each episode would have been a more amenable format, since that allowed readers more time to digest each segment and discuss. As for the stuff around the edges, the flashy battles or over the top meta characters that are used as framing devices, I guess that's just a matter of agree to disagree lol. I think they're heaps of fun as that kind of goofy/quirky humor has been in RK07's wheelhouse for a long time.
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Apr 12, 2021 13:15
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Finished Chapter 4 of Higurashi, it was good. The game explicitly asked me to come up with my own theories of what's going on before moving on to the next chapter, so let's see what I can come up with (while everyone who already knows what's coming can have a good laugh). Starting with the question of "is this solely the work of humans, or is there a supernatural element?", I feel like while you could come up with plausible answers for a lot of things, I'm having a hard time seeing the nurse (I'm sorry I forgot her name) being present in Ch2 after she should be dead as having a human-based explanation. I'm having a hard time actually coming up with any theories... Maybe a timeline might help me think of questions to ask? ???: Satoko sneaks into the sacred shed, possibly starting the curse? Rika is blamed. 1978: Some Sonozaki branch kidnaps the Minister of Construction's grandson to prevent the building of the dam, Akasaka is there but things probably would have worked out even if he wasn't there, sorry about your wife. Rika predicts the curse deaths for the next four years, and that she will die either on or soon after 1983's Watanagashi. It seems like she doesn't want to die but she never takes any actions to prevent it. 1979: The dam foreman is killed by six villagers. Five are arrested, the leader disappears (demoned away). 1980/1: I forget the details, I think it's 1980 Rika's father dies of illness and her mother disappears, possibly into the swamp, and 1981 is Satoko's parents in an accident? I can't really look these up on a wiki or something without spoilers, I imagine. 1982: Satoko's lovely aunt is killed, the official story is by a drug addict, but some people suspect Satoshi, Satoko's brother. Satoshi disappears a few days later on Satoko's birthday. Ch3 Keiichi comes up with this whole thing about Satoshi running away after murdering his aunt so that Satoko won't learn her brother is a murderer but I'd take anything Ch3 Keiichi says by that point with a grain of salt. He did invent this scenario after talking to Mion or Rena and them implying part of it so ??? Dates probably mentioned but I forgot and don't want to look it up: Rena's family leaves Hinamizawa; Rena flips out with a bat and injures three classmates before systematically breaking every window in her school, afterward believes this to be Oyashiro-sama's curse; Rena's family moves back to Hinamizawa. 1983 (All chapters): Keiichi's family moves to Hinamizawa around May? 1983 (Chapter 1): Keiichi hears about the curse from Tomitake some days before the festival. He has a grand old time at the festival and signs Tomitake's shirt. Tomitake dies from clawing his own throat out and Ooishi uses Keiichi to investigate, being the only person who signed the shirt who isn't already entangled in this entire thing. The nurse whose name I forgot is found dead in a barrel. Does she show up alive in chapter 1? I don't think so? Rena, then later Mion, start acting "possessed" when Keiichi investigates. They know things they shouldn't, though some of that may be from Shion overhearing and reporting to Mion. Rena does a crazy stealth act where she follows right behind Keiichi through the store without him ever noticing at the time, though you'd think his parents might have noticed? Possible evidence for some kind of "ghost" (for lack of a better term) who makes footstep sounds but isn't visible. Extra footsteps also appear in chapter 3. Keiichi starts carrying around a metal bat and being distant from his friends, which Rena says Satoshi also did shortly before disappearing. "Possessed" Rena tries to kill Keiichi with an axe, possibly to save him from an even worse fate? Running away from Rena, Keiichi is assaulted by two suspicious men, then awakes in his bed. Rena and Mion are there, planning to inject him with a syringe implied to contain whatever caused Tomitake to claw his throat out. They mention a "manager", then Keiichi kills them both. He hides the syringe behind his clock so his parents will find it if he dies. The house is surrounded by five or six men like the ones from before, along with a "doctor" (could be Coach?). Keiichi flees and eventually calls Ooishi from a payphone, but claws his throat out during the call. Your first mistake was cooperating with Ooishi, ACAB 1983 (Chapter 2): After not being given a doll, Mion goes loving nuts and starts killing people. She kills her grandmother at some unknown point. The nurse is killed the day before Watanagashi, yet she shows up alive there. She breaks into the sacred storage with Tomitake's help, and ropes Shion and Keiichi into things. Tomitake is later found dead having clawed his throat out, this is also when the nurse's body is found. Shion and Keiichi start freaking out that they'll die next. Mion kills the mayor and traps Shion in her torture dungeon. Keiichi admits he broke in to Rika, who already knew. Mion kills Rika, then has to kill Satoko to silence her. With police assistance, Rena and Keiichi confront Mion, who talks about becoming a demon then traps Keiichi in her torture dungeon. The police rescue Keiichi, and Mion trips and falls while running away and dies, though her body isn't found for a long time. Shion is traumatized by all this. Some time later, someone who looks like Mion wakes up Keiichi in the night. Keiichi goes outside and gets stabbed. The same night, Shion throws herself out her window and dies. Keiichi survives, but there's a Mion under his bed. 1983 (Chapter 3): Satoko's uncle's girlfriend is found dead and he returns to Hinamizawa. He's a real piece of poo poo and the system won't help Satoko, so Keiichi comes up with a plan to kill him the night of Watanagashi using Satoshi's old bat. After burying him, Keiichi runs into the nurse, who(m?) Keiichi believes has killed Tomitake, though really anything Keiichi thinks throughout this chapter should be taken with a grain of salt. Keiichi curses her to die. The next day, Keiichi discovers that his doppelganger attended the festival, Satoko's uncle is alive, and the nurse is dead. Also he keeps hearing extra footsteps when he walks. Keiichi, understandably, starts freaking out. Rena is being weird. In an attempt to figure out what the hell is going on, he confesses the murder to Coach, who believes him to be delusional. Keiichi curses Coach, then runs off to dig up the uncle's body to prove the murder happened. He's caught by Ooishi, but it turns out there's no body. Keiichi curses Ooishi at some point. The next day, Coach is found dead from an overdose of sleeping pills and Ooishi is nowhere to be seen. Keiichi rescues Satoko from her uncle (who isn't present?) but she freaks out, which is a pretty normal reaction to Keiichi having a cleaver and rambling about murder and curses. They find Rika's dead body. Satoko believes Keiichi to be a demon and pushes him off a bridge. Keiichi curses the entire village, then passes out. He wakes up two days later and finds out that due to swamp gas, everyone in the village is dead except him. Because he was in a valley, he should have died to the swamp gas but he didn't. How mysterious! 1983 (Chapter 4): Tomitake and the nurse die as usual, Coach dies of an overdose, Ooishi's subordinate is dead (was the subordinate alive in chapter 3?) and Rika is killed. Swamp gas kills everyone in the village. No one ever figures out what was going on. 1983 (Good End): Satoko's uncle is killed by his bike exploding. Ooishi is killed by his car exploding. Tomitake is thrown into the swamp to appease Oyashiro-sama and prevent swamp gas. Everyone else lives happily ever after. drat, that was long and rambling. Writing this down, what I'm getting is that I need to replay the first four chapters while taking notes if I want my speculation to be at all coherent.
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Apr 12, 2021 14:20
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Nate RFB posted:It kind of sounds you're just really not up for what Umineko brings to the table. Which to be clear is not a bad thing or something you're wrong about, but it feels like it's just not set up to be something that is going to work for you. Mm I see. well I'm gonna finish it, I'm close enough to the nd now, maybe I'll feel differently after that I haven't hated it or anything, the music was good and a lot of the little vignettes were good like in chapter 3 and 4, people's backstory stuff I liked. so far my only basic thoughts are just like that the Beatrice we are talking to and that Maria has met is just the one that Rosa met when she was a kid, who fell off the cliff and didn't die and got stuck back in the mansion. She could possibly be the daughter of a previous Beatrice, the one who helped get the gold in the first place? I assume this game doesn't have clones or whatever, since that would violate one or maybe two of Knox's rules anyway and also just be kinda stupid. If Battler is really the orphan baby, maybe Beatrice was the one who found him or like one of the servants who went back and forth between the mansions found him and stuck him to grow up in the hidden mansion with Beatrice and that's how they know each other and are close, to be telling each other these stories or whatever is happening. Beyond that I don't really know, I don't know how to begin to think about the structure of like what these games are, if they are stories being told to each other after the fact, or like "this is what we could do to them" revenge fantasies, or what. cause like I said, I don't know how to reconcile the completely different ending states of them, so they can't just be alternative explanations for like one set of events I don't think. or maybe they are and it'll just be explained in some way I haven't thought of. I assume whoever has like a "demon form" like Genji and the Kumasawa are people who are also involved, people who know of Beatrice's existence and might be present at like wherever this whole "game" thing is going on for real. Shannon and Kanon too I guess? Stefan Prodan fucked around with this message at 19:30 on Apr 12, 2021 |
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Apr 12, 2021 19:04
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What I will say is that the name of the back half chapters being Chiru, or "Breakdown" is notable when reading them. This is in contrast to the back half of Higurashi being Kai or "Solutions" which featured chapters that explicitly answered the previous chapters. By which I mean that it is a part of the story that is going to prominently work towards deconstructing (as in, literally taking apart) the narrative and analyzing it through that lens rather than just coming out to say 'Rosebud was the name of the sled' at the end. What I would invite you to think about are things like, "What was done differently in EP5 compared to the previous ones? Were the perspectives the same? If not, what were some ways they were different? What are some concepts introduced from that thread that might be applicable to the way the story has been presented previously? And if you are armed with that trick or knowledge, are there some hidden angles that you previously might have ruled out or not considered that would blow it all open?" It'll get there eventually, there will be little to no doubt about the who/what/why, and many of you have raised will be addressed in some form or another (but whether you'll be satisfied by them or not is obviously going to be up to you to decide for yourself), but the path to get there will be using more and more narrative tricks to try to get you to *ahem* turn the chessboard around.
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Apr 12, 2021 20:52
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Nate RFB posted:It's a story that is a love letter to detective fiction and murder mysteries in general, while it certainly extremely possible to enjoy it as a passive participant it has always been presented as a story where its readers could be constantly thinking and discussing it. Hence why so much of the meta aspects have been about the relationship between reader and author, or Ryukishi07's own commentary and changes made on the fly as the episodes were getting released. I think it's a little bit of an exaggeration to say that one would need to go back and actually reread all of the older chapters but also having the story go in one ear and out the other is going to leave you pretty much perpetually fumbling forward as well. Maybe the original format of its release where there were multiple months in between each episode would have been a more amenable format, since that allowed readers more time to digest each segment and discuss. I kind of disagree with this, at least as far as it being the core of the VN/story. All the sorta meta-commentary on authorship and mysteries and what have you is kind of clever/neat (but nothing particularly exceptional) but the characters and the specific way the story explores them is the thing that really sets it apart. Stefan Prodan posted:I'm still holding out that there's some big explanation that wraps all this stuff up that would be satisfying to me but I keep getting LOST vibes where I just keep going "I can't imagine how this is gonna end in a way that will be satisfying to me" I actually had an issue similar to this when I was in the process of reading it, largely because the actual twists in Higurashi were honestly kind of dumb/contrived and I wasn't expecting much in that department from Umineko as a result (I still liked Higurashi, but my response to the "mechanical" plot reveals was just "ehhh okay I guess?"). But with Umineko, everything makes sense given what you learn in the story and is considerably better when reflecting on earlier parts of the story. It does kind of require thinking, though, since there's one "twist/reveal" that is very easy to misunderstand. Rockman Reserve posted:Plus it took me over a week to get through all the pre-murder “lol titties” stuff in Episode 1. Battler is so gross until the chips are down. The thing about Battler is that (no actual plot spoilers, just general character commentary) he's thoughtless but genuinely has good intentions. If someone pointed out that it's actually not good to do something and that it made them uncomfortable, Battler would absolutely stop doing that. But he's oblivious and bad at figuring these things out on his own.
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Apr 12, 2021 22:05
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Stefan Prodan posted:Beyond that I don't really know, I don't know how to begin to think about the structure of like what these games are, if they are stories being told to each other after the fact, or like "this is what we could do to them" revenge fantasies, or what. cause like I said, I don't know how to reconcile the completely different ending states of them, so they can't just be alternative explanations for like one set of events I don't think. To get you started a bit, I believe episodes 4 and 6 should have offered some thoughts on that particular topic? These two scenes are the ones I'm thinking of, specifically.
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Apr 12, 2021 23:29
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Since I'm rereading Umineko anyway until I wrap my head around it a little better and feel more confident continuing I gotta ask, what kinds of mods are you guys using for all those fancy sprites and extra scene art and stuff? Bear in mind that I'm about the most basic bitch possible when it comes to modding stuff, the only thing I really ever mod is adding the Better Bodies to Morrowind so it looks slightly less like an OG XBox game. e: also totally bought Tokyo Zodiac Murders based on this thread's discussion and I'm probably going to dive through that as well, why not
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Apr 12, 2021 23:37
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https://07th-mod.com/home/ It's pretty straightforward though the launcher might get flagged as being by an "Unknown Publisher" that you'd have to button through. With Umineko I just have the voice patch applied and use the original sprites.
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Apr 12, 2021 23:56
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Rockman Reserve posted:Since I'm rereading Umineko anyway until I wrap my head around it a little better and feel more confident continuing I gotta ask, what kinds of mods are you guys using for all those fancy sprites and extra scene art and stuff? Bear in mind that I'm about the most basic bitch possible when it comes to modding stuff, the only thing I really ever mod is adding the Better Bodies to Morrowind so it looks slightly less like an OG XBox game. I always used 07th mod, though there is also Umineko Project now which also has lip sync.
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Apr 12, 2021 23:56
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Thanks! This is probably a dumb/unique question but I rely heavily on Steam's cloud saves as I play VNs on basically whatever machine I have handy at the time, if I install the mod on any machine I'm using will it interfere with cloud save functionality?
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Apr 13, 2021 00:05
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I'd assume so given the saves aren't compatible with the base version
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Apr 13, 2021 00:09
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Note though you can just unlock later chapters though if you have the mod, as it prepared for that.
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Apr 13, 2021 00:13
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Ytlaya posted:
I kinda felt this way about Okarin in Stein's Gate also, just a completely obnoxious person who shows like an actual good amount of true character and being willing to put himself on the line for people over the game that makes you end up liking him instead of just groaning at his bullshit the whole time
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Apr 13, 2021 00:14
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Cyouni posted:To get you started a bit, I believe episodes 4 and 6 should have offered some thoughts on that particular topic? These two scenes are the ones I'm thinking of, specifically. I haven't played Episode 6 yet, I just finished 5, I'll wait until I do to click on these I guess? I'm glad everyone isn't like thinking I'm trying to just poo poo on the game, I am really trying to like it and give it the best chance I can since I generally trust people's recommendations, and I'm trying to be like specific about the stuff that isn't working for me and allowing that it's possible they could work for me retroactively if in the end I agree some of that stuff like had to be there. I mean some of it I may just end up not liking and that's ok. S;G is my favorite VN and I think they could have easily cut like...a lot out of the beginning and I would have liked that better. I haven't played THAT many VNs so it may just be they are just generally more long-winded than I would like in general and that's just how they tend to be, but I have seen at least one or two people agree with me that Umineko kind of repeats itself a lot and could have used an editor, so I at least don't feel nuts for feeling that way. Stefan Prodan fucked around with this message at 00:17 on Apr 13, 2021 |
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Apr 13, 2021 00:14
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6 has probably my favorite scene so far and thinking back on it it probably ties back to exactly what we're discussing if I could only contextualize it better. I'm talking, of course, about the first twilight murders - that was one of the biggest loving mic drops I've seen in fiction.
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Apr 13, 2021 00:17
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Umineko EP 5 Conclusion Thoughts So that was by far the best chapter, not only did it end with a bang it answered almost all the questions of the Story to boot. Eirika is really gonna have to come back harder next Ep though, still not seeing what peeps are seeing in her, she's fine, but also very obnoxious. Dianor on the other hand is great, the scene with her demanding Sweet tea because shes a kid, very cute. Battler using Gold Truth makes up for how lame him using Red for the first time as well. Very unfortunate that it took Beato Dying to finally get his rear end in gear So as for the left over Questions I've got Five 1. Who’s Battler's mom? 2. Who's the man from 19 years ago? 3. The Epithet 4. Who Survived RokkenJima 5. What is Battler's Sin We will skip four for now. 1. Who is battler's mom. One he's not the baby Natsuhi yeeted off the cliff. They never confirmed it in red and also Why would Kinzo be so dismissive of him if he'd specifically chosen to have him raised as successor. If we follow the Decalogue's strictly, something that I think can lead us to trouble. I think Ryukushi is gifted enough to follow his own version of the Decalogue, while also subverting it. Then His mom has to be someone that is present in the story. Natsuhi clearly didn't birth him. Neither did Eva, Virgilla or Rosa. We do however have one character who was in a relationship with Rudolf, that was pregnant, and holds a deep amount of envy towards the circumstance of Battler's birth. What I propose is that Rudolf is a huge dick and got Asumu and Kyrie Pregnant, He for some reason only wanted to marry Asumu initially so when she miscarried he somehow used his money and influence to have the hospital switch the Babies. Then gaslit Kyrie about it for decades. Using money to get rid of his problems is also what he needs the Gold for though so unlikely as it seems it's not implausible. I also remembered as I typed it up, you could think it odd to have Battler’s mom not share a hair color with him, but Ange has the same drat hair. Clearly the received the inferior recessive genes. 2.The Man is clearly Beato/Shannon/Kanon and perhaps even Qanon Her circumstance is similar to the Kuwadorian Beatrice, something she probably internalized in her switch to that identity. Other wise the Age fits, It fits the Decalogue, it fits that we know how He would have inside knowledge of the mansion, and be close enough to watch, kill, and drop the letter. Given that in the Catbox all three of them manifest in actuality, Beato herself seems to view her personalities not as a disguise, or a mental shift, but rather as an entirely separate existence. 3. The Epithet, I have I think found a small piece of the answer. Kinzo’s “Beloved Hometwon isn’t his birthplace, and we know he was in the military, and he’s obsessed he’s a westaboo. And he loves cowboy movies, according to Rudolf and y’know having winchester’s. A digression, I once had a conversation about future locations for a Red Dead 3, me and the other participants had many ideas Russia in the Twenties, South America during the Revolutions, but one was Manchuria before and during the Japanese Occupation. You see thing’s got real real bad in China around that time, as far as I understand the Japanese forces could never project power that far from the cities, coasts, and Rail lines. I do have to thank both the Tokyo Zodiac Murders for reminding me of Manchuria. As well as the Decalogue. There’s one Law conspicuously missing from the Umineko interpretation, most specifically the one against a “Chinaman” figuring into the story. I’ve already said I think Ryukushi intends to both uphold and subvert each of the laws in his work, it’s easy to disuse this law because it’s y’know racist. BUT, he’s already subverted the underlying logic of the Law with both Beato and ironically Eirika. But what about the Letter of the law https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ABWU39o3ntk Imagine Kinzo private in the Japanese Army being funneled into a train car and shuttled across Korea into Manchuria to fight the KMT and later the Soviets. Kinzo a man who would risk every thing even his life on a gamble, perhaps he saw this as his rebirth, after the war, after surviving he was reborn no longer indecisive and wavering as young battler. But hardened and resolved to transform himself and society. Perhaps somewhere in Northern China a new Kinzo Ushiromiya was born. The train is the River btw 4. I will go into this in a separate post 5. Straight up, it’s a real Persona 2 Innocent Sin situation. Battler and Shannon were in some way romantically involved, or at least close enough friends that it would have developed naturally. Battler than hosed off for Six years leaving poor shannon in the Lurch, She than somehow ended up dating George and Jessica, which is umm not great, but the reason she says Battler caused the events of Rokkenjima is that if he hadn’t showed her heart would probably not been torn asunder. Her relationship with Jessie was in it’s infancy, and while George was more serious nobody in their right mind would choose George over the Battler. When Battler shows up everything goes to absolute poo poo, speculation but she sends the letter hoping that battler would realize that she was the potential killer and remember her, and hopefully stop her. It’s why in the gameboard Beato seems to give Battler so many goddamn chances, remember in episode 3 where she could won and instead threw the game at the end? Battler ended up absolutely destroying her not only when he left, but also when he so casually and cruelly forgot about her. More than anything else all she really wants is acknowledgment. Unfortunate that she only could have it once her metaself had disappeared. This is why Battler must take up the title of Endless, to continue to turn endless speculation, to keep the catbox alive until someone can finally understand the person at the heart of the tale. Gaius Marius fucked around with this message at 00:54 on Apr 14, 2021 |
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Apr 14, 2021 00:46
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Umineko Five spoilers Shoutout to Rockman for pointing out Battler's callous attiude towards Shannon at the Ep1 start, I'd nearly forgotten and it slipped a lot into place. Also shout out to Battleman for showing up after six years of not seeing your cousins and immediately trying to grope his fiancee to establish dominance. Umineko Six Spoilers After watching the first scene, I'm disappointed that Battler couldn't solve it with a rubber band. The next scene with Hachijo, I'm glad Battler and Beato got a happy ending, It's a load off my mind that things are gonna be alright. Jesus Battler first thing you do is make your girlfriend call you daddy? Holy poo poo he looks cool with th ecape Gaius Marius fucked around with this message at 02:46 on Apr 14, 2021 |
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Apr 14, 2021 00:50
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yeet
Gaius Marius fucked around with this message at 02:46 on Apr 14, 2021 |
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Apr 14, 2021 02:44
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