(Thread IKs:
Nuns with Guns)
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Queer Salutations posted:Difficulty modes or modifiers are important for accessibility reasons and not having them is just as bad as not having proper subtitles or colourblind settings.
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Apr 13, 2021 14:33
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| # ? May 30, 2024 00:43 |
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Are you perhaps saying that people who would like difficulty settings should...get good?
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Apr 13, 2021 14:37
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I was thinking about how Dark Souls does have options to make things easier and remembered DarkSydePhil curbstomping Dark Souls II with lightning spear and how funny it was when he got to I think Looking Glass Knight and it didn't work anymore.
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Apr 13, 2021 14:37
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SimonChris posted:https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K5tPJDZv_VE I do think it's nice that Pathologic 2 lets you modify settings but tells you how the developers suggest playing it. It's another game with that "deliberate difficulty" thing, but offering that didn't crack the world in half.
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Apr 13, 2021 14:41
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Captain Invictus posted:Are you perhaps saying that people who would like difficulty settings should...get good? my main issue is just when people use disability as a weapon to beat devs over the head with to try and force them to. like im hard of hearing so i need subtitle options and seeing that compared to getting mad about dying to the capra demon feels gross as gently caress. like sure people with bad motor reflexes and stuff exist so i guess you can make that argument there, but what about a game with literally no actual barriers to playing it? like a turnbased game where information is conveyed through icons so you dont even have to read the language its in. there's no reaction barrier, there's no physical barrier, so does that game have to have an easy mode?
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Apr 13, 2021 14:45
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The weirdest difficulty selection quirk still goes to STALKER, where outside modded stuff like Misery, the 'higher' difficulties can actually be easier in some ways.
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Apr 13, 2021 14:45
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the conversation always ends up being around dark souls because that's the only game that nerds crow endlessly about creative vision about when it comes to keeping one difficulty mode although if there are other games that people get this defensive about when it comes to difficulty i'd be interested in seeing the discussion actually be wider. but i feel like even in the realm of soulslikes, if someone modded in an easy difficulty to Nioh 2 no one would give a poo poo i have mixed opinions on from software's library but i will say this: if echo night had an easy skip for the gambling section i would've jumped on that because the gambling section of echo night is so loving bad
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Apr 13, 2021 14:49
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Endorph posted:its art
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Apr 13, 2021 14:52
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The 7th Guest posted:the conversation always ends up being around dark souls because that's the only game that nerds crow endlessly about creative vision about when it comes to keeping one difficulty mode granted that game actually does have a cheat code to double experience gains but that doesnt really make the game much easier
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Apr 13, 2021 14:54
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SimonChris posted:I like Mark Brown's solution to this. Have difficulty settings but hide them away and warn people that they aren't getting the intended experience that way. This is what Celeste does and it's easily one of the hardest games released lately. Endorph posted:absolutely not. Yes. Difficulty modifiers allow people with limited movement ranges to play games they're otherwise locked out of, see Nier Automata's Very Easy mode.
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Apr 13, 2021 14:55
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The 7th Guest posted:the conversation always ends up being around dark souls because that's the only game that nerds crow endlessly about creative vision about when it comes to keeping one difficulty mode https://twitter.com/9_volt_/status/984409321294520321?lang=en
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Apr 13, 2021 14:57
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Endorph posted:the game i actually care about when it comes to difficulty options is fire emblem thracia 776 not just to cheese through an area but also, like, bring back Big Head Mode codes, you coward game developers. have secret characters you can unlock in the create a character screen. add a turbo mode. first person mode
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Apr 13, 2021 14:57
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The 7th Guest posted:not just to cheese through an area but also, like, bring back Big Head Mode codes, you coward game developers. have secret characters you can unlock in the create a character screen Every game should have DK Mode and that's just a fact.
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Apr 13, 2021 14:59
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The 7th Guest posted:and i think cheat codes would be fun in soulslikes if they're not gonna have difficulty options, just to have a little extra fun
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Apr 13, 2021 15:00
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Hel posted:Cheat "devices" are still around it's just called cheatengine and is pc exclusive, and it's a pretty neat tool for dealing with developer bullshit, intended or not. Theres also this weird idea that by playing on a hypothetical easy mode a player is permanantly robbing themselves of ~the intended experience~ because I guess they get spoiled on the bullshit skeleton placements or whatever. Very strange idea especially in the age of Youtube imo. I did go back and play doom again as an adult and suprise cheating through the game as a kid didn't detract from my experience.
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Apr 13, 2021 15:00
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Darkest Dungeon 's easiest mode still retains permadeath because it's necessary to the tone and experience the game is setting out to establish. I think that's a pretty good way to handle it - identify what parts of your game's difficulty is necessary for the intended experience and give ways to tweak the rest. Like it's not just "reduce all execution requirements" because for some games that's pretty important. All fighting games can't just make everything use Smash inputs because some of those games are very tightly balanced around the specifics of execution. But there's probably a bunch of games where inputting commands could be made easier without really altering anything.
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Apr 13, 2021 15:03
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Mr Phillby posted:This is something people just don't seem to understand, for some players an 'easy mode' would be as hard for them as a normal playthrough would be for someone experienced with 3D action games. Matchmaking in multiplayer solves a similar problem.
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Apr 13, 2021 15:04
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Endorph posted:make fred durst playable in every video game The Tony Hawk 1+2 remaster was a scam because they thought Jack Black was an acceptable substitute to Shrek being a playable character. Let me play Madden with a team of Minions against a team where the quarterback is RZA.
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Apr 13, 2021 15:04
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The 7th Guest posted:the conversation always ends up being around dark souls because that's the only game that nerds crow endlessly about creative vision about when it comes to keeping one difficulty mode The Dark Souls playerbase has also documented that even deprived of an "easy mode" people will still hack themselves to max level or cart around 2-3 friends in definitely legit endgame gear to steamroll everything. Like I guess you can lead a horse to water but there will always be a few who don't want to learn proper dodge roll timing. Maybe this really is a special Soulsborne thing though, you don't hear about anyone turning on god mode to power through the 800-hour storyline of a Witcher game.
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Apr 13, 2021 15:09
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if someone modded the marauders out of doom eternal you'd probably get just as many people going "good idea, gently caress those guys" as people saying that they're part of the intended experience
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Apr 13, 2021 15:11
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itd be very funny if the next fromsoft game had an easy mode and all it did was reduce the hp of a single specific enemy by 1
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Apr 13, 2021 15:16
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Whoever is shouting "get good" in my stream chat, I will never get good
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Apr 13, 2021 15:21
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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s1MYSgy4QMw This is obviously only one of so many examples but like, I've played at so many tournaments with people who have had to face major physical hurdles and seeing them get written off in here is pretty weird tbh.
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Apr 13, 2021 15:22
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I wasn't even arguing against the inclusion of difficulty modes. I was trying to point out that in the case of the Souls games, a series both renowned for challenge and often used as the prime example in this argument, "difficulty" is not just about how fast enemies move or how much health they have, it's primarily about observation, environment, exploration, and problem solving. Enemies being tough or challenging is used as a component of that. If a dev is going to include an easy mode, understanding this seems important? If anything, a more complex approach to difficulty should make preserving the affect more possible. Lowering enemy health in Dark Souls doesn't really change the basic experience of the game, for example. The zombie hiding around the corner is still going to surprise the player, those big dudes in armor are still going to be tougher than the little dudes, etc.
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Apr 13, 2021 15:28
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I do think Dark Souls demonstrates that a difficulty mode is less urgent if you give the player a broad palette of relevant skillsets so if they keep trying different approaches they might find something that works really well for them. On top of new players finding a niche it also provides a massive amount of potential self-imposed challenges for experienced players.
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Apr 13, 2021 15:35
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Endorph posted:there was a sonic fangame that literally turned itself into a creepypasta nightmare with sonic corpses flying aroudn and poo poo if you googled cheats for it while it was open, or if it detected cheatengine running Holy poo poo lmao
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Apr 13, 2021 15:43
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Hungry posted:people trying to tackle the skeletons at the start of DS1 and deciding the game is bullshit hard I'd argue that these players had just a legitimate Dark Souls playthrough as anybody else, they achieved the Crestfallen Knight ending.
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Apr 13, 2021 15:43
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Hungry posted:I wasn't even arguing against the inclusion of difficulty modes. I was trying to point out that in the case of the Souls games, a series both renowned for challenge and often used as the prime example in this argument, "difficulty" is not just about how fast enemies move or how much health they have, it's primarily about observation, environment, exploration, and problem solving. Enemies being tough or challenging is used as a component of that. Yes and people with cognitive disabilities also play video games and easier difficulty help those as well as people with motor issues. And frankly speaking just playing around with numbers can be of help here even if doing stuff like providing more hints, clearer tells and such is more important. Just making it so any ambush won't kill a player on easy still has the cost of failing in DS but someone with memory issues might have a better chance of seeing why they got caught and how to prevent it than if they were immediately forced into a corpserun. Same can be done with bosses if you can survive a bit longer ln easy you can get another chance at figuring out the ranges and timing of the boss attacks without being interrupted by a corpserun. The people who want more options aren't arguing for bad options, they want stuff in line with System Shock, Silent Hill and Shadow of the Tomb Raider where you don't just pick easy but maybe easy puzzles & hard combat or vise versa.
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Apr 13, 2021 15:48
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Thinking the skeletons and catacombs was the start of the game was exactly my experience, I got a long ways in before learning otherwise, then monkey stomped the undead burg and all that with the zweihander and stuff lol
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Apr 13, 2021 15:48
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Hungry posted:If a dev is going to include an easy mode, understanding this seems important? If anything, a more complex approach to difficulty should make preserving the affect more possible. Lowering enemy health in Dark Souls doesn't really change the basic experience of the game, for example. The zombie hiding around the corner is still going to surprise the player, those big dudes in armor are still going to be tougher than the little dudes, etc. Summoning is very much the intended easy difficulty of Soulsborne. It also fits really well into the game's meta-theme of community and poo poo. Maybe a way to make it easier is to just shut off invasions? Or have an option to restrict it just to the NPC invasions and add in some NPC blueboys or something. Hel posted:Yes and people with cognitive disabilities also play video games and easier difficulty help those as well as people with motor issues. And frankly speaking just playing around with numbers can be of help here even if doing stuff like providing more hints, clearer tells and such is more important. Just making it so any ambush won't kill a player on easy still has the cost of failing in DS but someone with memory issues might have a better chance of seeing why they got caught and how to prevent it than if they were immediately forced into a corpserun. I think the counter-argument is that being able to survive those ambushes runs the risk you don't learn the lesson they're trying to teach you - that you need to pay attention the game's environment. If you can just power through the boulder traps then you might not be looking too closely at the environments and miss out on neat treasure or hidden dungeons. But I don't think there's any ambush or trap in those games that doesn't have some sort of advance warning. Or doesn't let you just rotate the camera to see the dipshit next to the door.
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Apr 13, 2021 16:01
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Hel posted:Yes and people with cognitive disabilities also play video games and easier difficulty help those as well as people with motor issues. And frankly speaking just playing around with numbers can be of help here even if doing stuff like providing more hints, clearer tells and such is more important. Just making it so any ambush won't kill a player on easy still has the cost of failing in DS but someone with memory issues might have a better chance of seeing why they got caught and how to prevent it than if they were immediately forced into a corpserun. Same can be done with bosses if you can survive a bit longer ln easy you can get another chance at figuring out the ranges and timing of the boss attacks without being interrupted by a corpserun. I always went Easy/Normal for Combat and Hard for Puzzles in Silent Hill.
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Apr 13, 2021 16:03
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CYBEReris posted:I do think Dark Souls demonstrates that a difficulty mode is less urgent if you give the player a broad palette of relevant skillsets so if they keep trying different approaches they might find something that works really well for them. On top of new players finding a niche it also provides a massive amount of potential self-imposed challenges for experienced players. I think the call for an easy mode only became really dominant when Sekiro showed up, which didn't have two of the usual methods streamers and reviewers used to get through the game easily. (leveling up and summoning help) I don't have any problem with people doing whatever they want to win their game as long as they don't blame the game for when mistakes do get made. (Looking at you DSP) Also I keep seeing that YOU CHEATED YOURSELF quote come up all the time. Could have sworn that started as a joke post. DeafNote fucked around with this message at 16:10 on Apr 13, 2021 |
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Apr 13, 2021 16:08
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DeafNote posted:Also I keep seeing that YOU CHEATED YOURSELF quote come up all the time. Could have sworn that started as a joke post. I think it did, but sometimes you never know.
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Apr 13, 2021 16:15
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The original was not a joke post. It became a huge meme becasue it was really dumb
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Apr 13, 2021 16:16
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the original was from a quartering-esque dumbass
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Apr 13, 2021 16:17
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I can't think about that quote without reading it in the voice of the Duke Amiel du H’ardcore character played by James Stephanie Sterling
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Apr 13, 2021 16:20
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im so late to this conversation but its about my two favorite things: authorial intention vs user/viewer experience and dark souls. can we start over.
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Apr 13, 2021 16:24
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https://twitter.com/JennyENicholson/status/1381999038497611776
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Apr 13, 2021 17:01
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Yardbomb posted:Holy poo poo lmao
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Apr 13, 2021 17:33
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| # ? May 30, 2024 00:43 |
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my thoughts kept getting too away from me to the short of it is that 1. accessibility in games coming to the forefront of people's attention has been hugely eye-opening for helping me see how games approach their audiences 2. dark souls gets brought up frequently as an example also because its a game that actively wants you to die. the plot encourages and revolves around your relationship to it within the fiction. 3. i honestly don't know how to feel about difficulty sliders in dark souls because im a huge big baby who loves dark souls and i think the alteration to the perseverance themes of the story strips away some of the purpose of the narrative. but on the other hand who cares? its a videogame lol. they're art but they're bad art. and thats fine, i love them for what they are but im ascribing too much importance to something that is ultimately an entertainment experience. isn't the point of an experience that it's supposed to be experienced? alterations to dark souls to make it accessible would have to start from the bottom up anyway lol everything is wrong with that game. the whole thing needs to be re-tooled for color blindness for a start. the only other alteration i would make to dark souls 1 is to speed it up a lil. my guy is so s l o w
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Apr 13, 2021 17:33
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