|
ultrafilter posted:Which article is this from? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Clash_of_Civilizations It's bad
|
#
?
Apr 13, 2021 15:05
|
|
|
|
| # ? May 28, 2024 08:51 |
|
|
Also used on these articles: Civilization Samuel P. Huntington Western world Western culture
|
|
#
?
Apr 13, 2021 15:16
|
|
|
Take the plunge! Okay! posted:I had to post the Wikipedia map because lmao WTF is going on with Guyana et al.? I'll admit I'm not super knowledgeable about that part of the world but I don't think "Hindu/African" is correct. EDIT: Okay I looked it up and apparently the majority of Guyana and Suriname's population is, in fact, people of Indian or African descent. I honestly did not know that! (Not that it makes the map any less stupid, but it does explain that anomaly.) Alien Arcana fucked around with this message at 15:50 on Apr 13, 2021 |
|
#
?
Apr 13, 2021 15:46
|
|
|
Alien Arcana posted:WTF is going on with Guyana et al.? I'll admit I'm not super knowledgeable about that part of the world but I don't think "Hindu/African" is correct. Including Bougainville and New Ireland but not Jamaica, Trinidad or Puerto Rico is certainly an interesting choice. Trinidad would probably also be “Hindu” under that classification system (despite being majority Christian) Edit: also lol at Haiti Starks fucked around with this message at 16:56 on Apr 13, 2021 |
|
#
?
Apr 13, 2021 16:31
|
|
|
It's a very important point that it's a map based on the finest post-cold-war racism scholar, made using state-of-the-art racist methodology.
|
|
#
?
Apr 13, 2021 16:46
|
|
|
a pipe smoking dog posted:
Not Hindu. But its actually the opposite for the most part. Historically the sects did consider themselves different religions entirely depending on whether they centered vishnu or shiva etc. By historically I mean before when the roman empire fell in the west. Around 700 or so a guy named Adi Shankara came around who said that actually all hindu gods are just reflections of brahman so really its the same religion. He did however draw very big distinctions between hinduism and buddhism in part because his opponents kept accusing him of being a secret buddhist due to a lot of his ideas resembling mahayana buddhist concepts. His ideas picked up a lot of steam though and hindus began to think of themselves as a single religon with many sects when Nalanda and Naropa were destroyed during the mughal invasion and buddhism was expelled from the indian subcontinent hindus sort of kept thinking of themselves as a single religion defined by the fact that they weren't muslims who now ruled india. This has gotten to the point where nowadays with hindutva many hindu nationalists consider buddhism to simply be a sect of hinduism (this is actually in the constitution of india which is one of many reasons why dalits convert to buddhism to protest casteism as many states have anti-conversion laws but its technically not conversion) as many of the concepts are similar, it originated in the indian subcontinent, and buddha is in hindu belief the 9th incarnation of vishnu.
|
|
#
?
Apr 13, 2021 16:56
|
|
|
|
|
#
?
Apr 13, 2021 17:00
|
|
|
Even without racist motives, terms like "The West", "The Middle East" or "East Europe" are always going to contentious and dependent on context. I kind of like the approach often seen in research on the geography of the Midwest, it nicely reflects the fuzziness of regional labels. 
|
|
#
?
Apr 13, 2021 17:09
|
|
|
When americans call Afghanistan part of the middle east I can never tell if they just have no idea where it is (probably), or are racistly lumping it in with the other muslim countries we bomb (probably), or if they just have a more expansive definition of "middle east" than I do.
|
|
#
?
Apr 13, 2021 17:16
|
|
|
I would be really interested in learning where the people who responded to that survey are from. Everyone I know who lives in or spent a considerable amount of time in Louisville for example considers it part of the midwest as do the majority of the respondents there but when I talk to tourists or people out of state they expect us to go around drinking sweet tea on our verandas and talk about Southern Hospitality or whatever.
|
|
#
?
Apr 13, 2021 17:16
|
|
|
e: never mind, didn't look at the first picture closely enough.
|
|
#
?
Apr 13, 2021 17:16
|
|
|
I can see you splitting Tennessee from the Deep South and then having to place it somewhere, but who's the madlad calling Rhode Island 'midwest'? alnilam posted:When americans call Afghanistan part of the middle east I can never tell if they just have no idea where it is (probably), or are racistly lumping it in with the other muslim countries we bomb (probably), or if they just have a more expansive definition of "middle east" than I do. Originally the terms were "Near East" being the Ottoman Empire, "Middle East" being Persia/Afghanistan/India, and "Far East" being China/Japan. Entirely possible it's a holdover from those days. Byzantine fucked around with this message at 17:18 on Apr 13, 2021 |
|
#
?
Apr 13, 2021 17:16
|
|
|
alnilam posted:When americans call Afghanistan part of the middle east I can never tell if they just have no idea where it is (probably), or are racistly lumping it in with the other muslim countries we bomb (probably), or if they just have a more expansive definition of "middle east" than I do. i thought the original British foreign office distinction was : Near East: Levant + other Ottoman bits Middle East: Iran + -stans + other Great Game related bits in the Caucasus Far East: Indian subcontinent + China + Japan
|
|
#
?
Apr 13, 2021 17:25
|
|
|
BIG FLUFFY DOG posted:Not Hindu. But its actually the opposite for the most part. Historically the sects did consider themselves different religions entirely depending on whether they centered vishnu or shiva etc. By historically I mean before when the roman empire fell in the west. Around 700 or so a guy named Adi Shankara came around who said that actually all hindu gods are just reflections of brahman so really its the same religion. He did however draw very big distinctions between hinduism and buddhism in part because his opponents kept accusing him of being a secret buddhist due to a lot of his ideas resembling mahayana buddhist concepts. Thanks man, that really clears a lot of things up.
|
|
#
?
Apr 13, 2021 17:29
|
|
|
alnilam posted:When americans call Afghanistan part of the middle east I can never tell if they just have no idea where it is (probably), or are racistly lumping it in with the other muslim countries we bomb (probably), or if they just have a more expansive definition of "middle east" than I do. ahaha I had forgotten about “the new balkans” rhetoric https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greater_Middle_East
|
|
#
?
Apr 13, 2021 17:31
|
|
|
"The west" isn't really worth putting work into defining as a category, although I think you're trying to fit in the whole "global south" concept, which is also dumb. I kinda like the "third world" designation, but that's mainly because I remember what it originally meant and it's kinda fun getting into the arcane minutia. South America also gets split. I think Brazil is third world, Panama is first world, and Cuba is second world. alnilam posted:When americans call Afghanistan part of the middle east I can never tell if they just have no idea where it is (probably), or are racistly lumping it in with the other muslim countries we bomb (probably), or if they just have a more expansive definition of "middle east" than I do. Well, the term just means "the east, but not like the close east but also not the far east" so anything west of China but east of...I dunno, Poland falls into it. In theory, the levant and Egypt are too far west to include, but they usually get included as well. a pipe smoking dog posted:I suppose it's also interesting that Hinduism gets to be considered a "real" religion when other similar religions with local deities and pantheons are generally described as "just" folk traditions. I'm not sure what you mean. I think generally unless the people practicing a religion consider themselves just a branch of something else, people are usually willing to count it as its own thing (unless they're a certain game dev trying to come up with extra heresies for islam so they could run it on the same mechanics as christian sects). There are some weird things too like Mormonism where people try to define it as being a religion independent from christianity somehow. a pipe smoking dog posted:Like are there Hindus who think that other Hindus aren't real Hindus because they prioritise the wrong gods or eat food which is unclean? It just seems weird to me that we rarely hear about divisions within Hinduism when we do hear it about other religions. I think one of the reasons the specific differences don't come up often is because most branches don't tend to be proselytizing. I don't think I've heard much about Hare Krishnas for a long time now either. And if there are some doctrine-specific disputes, they haven't become domestically relevant in the US yet. However, there is one big separating thing in Hinduism that there's been a lot of controversy over, and that's the caste system. A lot of people still get discriminated against because of the castes that their family was once part of or that was historically associated with their last name and all that, and it gets really nasty. There's some religious associations about the caste system as well, but I'm not sure of the details and I don't think it's the sort of belief that can really be allowed to exist in a civilized world.
|
|
#
?
Apr 13, 2021 17:56
|
|
|
alnilam posted:When americans call Afghanistan part of the middle east I can never tell if they just have no idea where it is (probably), or are racistly lumping it in with the other muslim countries we bomb (probably), or if they just have a more expansive definition of "middle east" than I do. if I heard an American say "middle east" I would assume they meant everything west of India up to about Egypt/Turkey.
|
|
#
?
Apr 13, 2021 18:00
|
|
|
Huh well it looks like I'm the fool then, I think of the middle east as being centered around the levant / arabian peninsula, in part because it's not easy to assign that region to a continent. To me afghanistan is SW Asia.
|
|
#
?
Apr 13, 2021 18:01
|
|
|
Take the plunge! Okay! posted:I had to post the Wikipedia map because lmao Why does Papua New Guinea get to be Western?
|
|
#
?
Apr 13, 2021 18:51
|
|
|
Byzantine posted:I can see you splitting Tennessee from the Deep South and then having to place it somewhere, but who's the madlad calling Rhode Island 'midwest'? tennessee isn't deep south hth
|
|
#
?
Apr 13, 2021 18:59
|
|
|
Badger of Basra posted:Why does Papua New Guinea get to be Western? Western = Christian.
|
|
#
?
Apr 13, 2021 19:01
|
|
|
SlothBear posted:Western = Christian. Come on, put in at least some effort. 
|
|
#
?
Apr 13, 2021 19:26
|
|
|
alnilam posted:Huh well it looks like I'm the fool then, I think of the middle east as being centered around the levant / arabian peninsula, in part because it's not easy to assign that region to a continent. To me afghanistan is SW Asia. Eh, it's an understandable interpretation. To me, Middle East means "Muslim majority countries except Indonesia" more or less, with Somalia being excluded because it's barely a country and Israel being included because I'm counting all Palestinians as Israelis. I think the bigger issue is that SW Asia is not really a thing in most people's minds. It's just a blank space that you never think about. I post in this thread occasionally, and even I couldn't name the-stans, especially if we include the Russian ones. I'm not even sure if there are Chinese -stans or even how the Chinese works. It's just a hole in a lot of people's knowledge of geography. We do know that Iran is next to the Arabs, Pakistan is next to India and Afghanistan is in the general vicinity and probably bordering Pakistan. But that's about it for non-map-nerds. Re: first/second/third world, isn't it just "NATO ally/Warsaw pact ally/unaligned? And the real fun bit was Trump threatening to leave NATO and effectively make USA third world?
|
|
#
?
Apr 13, 2021 19:32
|
|
|
You could maybe say that Afghanistan is at the point where East Asia (China), South Asia (Pakistan and India), Central Asia (Most of the other 'stans, most of the countries where horse nomads were big), and the Middle East all meet up, but Afghanistan doesn't actually fit into any because politically it was always just out of reach. Didn't follow along when the Mughals conquered India, was conquered a few times by Muslims, but never really stuck with the rest of the islamic world, didn't quite fall under the dominion of most horse nomad empires, and wasn't conquered by Russia when they dominated most of Central Asia, and certainly was never run by China. Maybe if Tibet went independent you could make a new region, call it "Mountain Asia" and fold Afghanistan into that.
|
|
#
?
Apr 13, 2021 19:54
|
|
|
Starks posted:Including Bougainville I have a silly question for mainly aussies. Is bougainville related to the the term bogan?
|
|
#
?
Apr 13, 2021 19:54
|
|
|
alnilam posted:When americans call Afghanistan part of the middle east I can never tell if they just have no idea where it is (probably), or are racistly lumping it in with the other muslim countries we bomb (probably), or if they just have a more expansive definition of "middle east" than I do. I'm convinced that many of my countrymen treat "middle east", "arab", and "muslim" as synonyms. Like: Muscle Tracer posted:if I heard an American say "middle east" I would assume they meant everything west of India up to about Egypt/Turkey.  BonHair posted:Eh, it's an understandable interpretation. To me, Middle East means "Muslim majority countries except Indonesia" more or less, with Somalia being excluded because it's barely a country and Israel being included because I'm counting all Palestinians as Israelis. Like, I get that words are defined by use and categories are just social convention and so Middle East can include an independent Xinjiang. I'm just an etymology fan and the term "middle east" first made sense to me as more than a vague label when I learned people used to also say "near east". ("Far east" kind of always made sense: It's really far away, and in the east.)
|
|
#
?
Apr 13, 2021 20:02
|
|
|
Vavrek posted:I'm convinced that many of my countrymen treat "middle east", "arab", and "muslim" as synonyms. Like: Muslim and Middle Eastern are definitely very related concepts to a lot of people, and Arabs are either a subset or just the same vague (and probably racist) category. Bangladesh is a fun example, because it doesn't really fit into any region in my mind. It's just a bit between India and Pakistan* that's more or less just "greater India", which also kinda includes Pakistan  *Not exactly accurate at all, I know.
|
|
#
?
Apr 13, 2021 20:15
|
|
|
Before we get too pedantic about each others choices about whether so-and-so country is part of the Middle -East we have to remember that words change meaning over time. The Middle East has turned from meaning "West of Iraq south of Russia, and West of India" to "Muslim countries that America likes to bomb", in the same way that Having A Gay Old Time has switched from "What the Flintstones do on vacation" to "What people on Fire Island do on vacation".
|
|
#
?
Apr 13, 2021 20:18
|
|
|
Bangladesh is south asia. Its just the muslim part of bengal so it was divided in the partition. If you think kolkata capital of the british raj is part of south asia then you should think bangladesh is part of it since religion is the only difference between the two.
|
|
#
?
Apr 13, 2021 20:22
|
|
|
SlothfulCobra posted:Maybe if Tibet went independent you could make a new region, call it "Mountain Asia" and fold Afghanistan into that. the problem with the current labels is that they are based on a british-centered coordinate system and w/r/t british foreign policy aims. "stuff we don't want the russians to get, but probably not the ottomans either" is just as arbitrary and culturally erasing as when the americans borrowed the term a century later for "muslim countries we want to either bomb or to buy bombs from us." we need a new prime meridian here, and this "mountain" prefix give us a path forward. we know already that montenegrins are "mountain serbs." by extension we could imagine croats are "sea serbs" and slovenes naturally as "ski serbs." we could continue in a similar fashion until we arrive at afghanis as "eastern oversea mountain serbs" and the british as "northwestern damp serbs" etc. etc. Tree Goat fucked around with this message at 20:49 on Apr 13, 2021 |
|
#
?
Apr 13, 2021 20:25
|
|
|
ultrafilter posted:Which article is this from? https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Western_culture e:whoa missed a whole page
|
|
#
?
Apr 13, 2021 20:31
|
|
|
But... Switzerland doesn't use the ß, neither in Swiss German nor in Swiss High German. If anything ß is the best way to determine that the writer is *not* in Switzerland. I also didn't know Czech sometimes put little hats on their Rs and little circles on their Us.
|
|
#
?
Apr 13, 2021 20:56
|
|
|
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EQdkgAbkMyU
|
|
#
?
Apr 13, 2021 22:59
|
|
|
The czech soft R is pretty freaky, it's somewhere between hard R and Sh, but without the softness of 'y' you'd get in e.g. Polish. And yes I know that doesn't make much sense. The circled U is actually a dumb grammatical holdover that has no effect on pronunciation, but it's used instead of the standard accented u in specific cases (including that it's never the first letter, hence Ů doesn't exist and even looking at the character is very  ).e: slightly more accurate description of ř Private Speech fucked around with this message at 23:44 on Apr 13, 2021 |
|
#
?
Apr 13, 2021 23:40
|
|
|
Exactly.
|
|
#
?
Apr 13, 2021 23:47
|
|
|
 while there are lots of things i could be from this map, currently i'm thindia
|
|
#
?
Apr 14, 2021 00:06
|
|
|
I’m Paraguar.
|
|
#
?
Apr 14, 2021 00:07
|
|
|
i'm the famous northern australian peninsula
|
|
#
?
Apr 14, 2021 00:10
|
|
|
I'm the UK.
|
|
#
?
Apr 14, 2021 00:15
|
|
|
|
| # ? May 28, 2024 08:51 |
|
|
I'm not on that map do I'm assuming I just respawned at the point of biggest affinity. So I'm now with my girlfriend. a good map
|
|
#
?
Apr 14, 2021 00:15
|
|
