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AJA posted:"So hey, I know my buddy slaughtered your mom and dad and I knew about it and kept it from you and then tried to get all moralistic when you found out and called me out on it, but have you maybe ever considered not being such a little baby momma's boy about it? Anyways, give me a call, we'll totally hang out. Y'know, if you stop being such a pissy bitch. Luv ya, Avengers 4 Eva!" One bit of actual good writing in Endgame is that after Tony gets back to Earth he's still rightfully furious with Steve, even if it takes some time for it to come to the surface, and even after that it's a full 5 years before he and Steve have an official détente.
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Apr 14, 2021 00:56
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Sanguinia posted:Are some cities in MCU NOT powered by Arc Reactors? I assumed they were and that's why Tony is still so loving rich after he stop selling weapons. They pay him a tiny fraction of what they used to pay major electric companies and he in turn provides the technical expertise to maintain them, and that's the bulk of his business which still numbers in a tens of billions. And then maybe the state governments provide giant subsidies to non-Arc electric companies to keep providing to more rural areas where Arc tech is not yet economical? Plus you got competing energy companies who really don't want to end up being driven out of business so Stark Industries has to negotiate to make sure the legislators who got voted in thanks to big oil don't do their song and dance of suppressing his work in due to time to release their own palladium reactors to the public. And he is also trying monopolize on the research institute market by pushing events like Stark Expo and the September foundation which mean when the people benefitting from Stark stoking his Futurist Peen they would invest in Stark Industries
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Apr 14, 2021 00:56
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mind the walrus posted:It's flimsy, but it holds because the movie is all about Peter realizing he can't be Iron Man Jr. (while absolutely being Iron Man Jr.). Ehh...not really. Tony would invent/science his way out of any problems, while the whole movie was about Peter learning to trust his instincts (re: Peter tingle). He uses his biology rather than technology, which is kind of an important part of the whole Iron Man thing. Can't be Iron Man Jr. without it really. Peter might be Tony Jr at some point, if he leans in to the intelligence and inventive side of his character, but he'll never really be Iron Man Jr. That'll be Ironheart if it'll be anyone; though Rhodey is current Iron Man Jr. mind the walrus posted:One bit of actual good writing in Endgame is that after Tony gets back to Earth he's still rightfully furious with Steve, even if it takes some time for it to come to the surface, and even after that it's a full 5 years before he and Steve have an official détente. I thought Tony was more angry that after the poo poo he'd eaten from the rest of the Avengers about how awful Ultron was and that it Tony's fault (but not Bruce's, despite him being a huge part of it too) for trying to put a shield around the entire world, that Thanos was basically the thing Tony had feared, and he'd hosed the entire world sideways because the Avengers were purely a reactionary group. Tony was the one person trying to be proactive, and do more than just show up to gently caress up the threat du jour and everyone gave him stick about it. tsob fucked around with this message at 01:03 on Apr 14, 2021 |
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Apr 14, 2021 00:59
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mind the walrus posted:I'm a much bigger Steve fan than Tony, but yeah facts. Although to Steve's credit he does apologize and seems to mean it. Tony's "You weren't there" argument never made sense. Tony only went to Titan because he was with Strange and could fly.
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Apr 14, 2021 01:01
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live with fruit posted:Tony's "You weren't there" argument never made sense. Tony only went to Titan because he was with Strange and could fly. I don't know if you remember Iron Man 3 but it was a plot point that he had legit PTSD from going into deep space and in Age of Ultron the entire impetus for building Ultron was trauma-related fear about more alien invasions coming. Then you have Infinity War where all of his worst fears come true (plus losing Peter) and he was stranded and nearly died cut off from everyone he ever knew for the trouble, coming back to Earth as skin and bones. Like it's really not something we as the audience are supposed to take as a serious indictment of Steve, it's a character beat we're meant to understand and sympathize with. It's all impressively consistent with a character they had spent 7 straight years developing across 6 movies at that point.
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Apr 14, 2021 01:08
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I do wish Civil War had as its motivating conflict something actually meaningful, and that had an impact in later films. The writers admit that the breakdown in relations at the end of the film had to be immediate because otherwise Tony would have rationally realised Bucky was not in control. And then the actual Avengers split doesn't impact anything story-wise in Infinity War. The reconciliation in Endgame is also a little empty because it's always going to seem trivial by that point.
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Apr 14, 2021 01:19
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Ravel posted:I do wish Civil War had as its motivating conflict something actually meaningful, and that had an impact in later films. The writers admit that the breakdown in relations at the end of the film had to be immediate because otherwise Tony would have rationally realised Bucky was not in control. And then the actual Avengers split doesn't impact anything story-wise in Infinity War. The reconciliation in Endgame is also a little empty because it's always going to seem trivial by that point. This is the big thing. Even if they had been together, they wouldn't have been in Manhattan and it took maybe 10 minutes for the Black Order to get Strange. They wouldn't have had enough time to get there.
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Apr 14, 2021 01:22
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MiddleOne posted:Haha what is the weird Steven Strange reference in Winter Soldier. The AI knew from his bank records and purchasing patterns that he was going to become a sorcerer? Very goofy. All we know is that he wasn't during the time of the first Avengers as seen in Endgame, but nothing else has really been defined. Several years can pass in a training montage. LividLiquid fucked around with this message at 01:25 on Apr 14, 2021 |
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Apr 14, 2021 01:23
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Disney+ lays out the timeline pretty concretely by just allowing you to watch the movies in chronological order. Strange takes place right before Thor Ragnarok but definitively after Age of Ultron transpires
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Apr 14, 2021 01:27
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WSAENOTSOCK posted:All we know is that he wasn't during the time of the first Avengers as seen in Endgame, but nothing else has really been defined. Several years can pass in a training montage. Even beyond that, Strange's pre-injury physical and intellectual abilities were arguably superhuman. The kind of surgery he was accomplishing were often widely considered impossible, and his ability to become a powerful sorcerer as quickly as he did was demonstrably based less on innate magical abilities and more on an extremely powerful intellect.
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Apr 14, 2021 01:28
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Bust Rodd posted:Disney+ lays out the timeline pretty concretely by just allowing you to watch the movies in chronological order. Strange takes place right before Thor Ragnarok but definitively after Age of Ultron transpires I like the theory postulated earlier in the thread that Strange post-accident, searching for the Ancient One/training would have been considered prime material for government oversight: a brilliant, arrogant world-class surgeon who had become desperate and dropped off the grid after looking into freaky cults. Bleck posted:Even beyond that, Strange's pre-injury physical and intellectual abilities were arguably superhuman. The kind of surgery he was accomplishing were often widely considered impossible, and his ability to become a powerful sorcerer as quickly as he did was demonstrably based less on innate magical abilities and more on an extremely powerful intellect.
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Apr 14, 2021 01:32
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Ravel posted:I do wish Civil War had as its motivating conflict something actually meaningful, and that had an impact in later films. The writers admit that the breakdown in relations at the end of the film had to be immediate because otherwise Tony would have rationally realized Bucky was not in control. And then the actual Avengers split doesn't impact anything story-wise in Infinity War. The reconciliation in Endgame is also a little empty because it's always going to seem trivial by that point. There's no doubt Civil War was way too ambitious. It tried to be a Captain America movie, an Iron Man movie, and an Avengers movie all at the same time. But I disagree with "trivial"; as you note, Tony accepted relatively quickly that his anger at Bucky was misplaced, and his friendship with Steve was deeper than his anger at perceived betrayal. But accepting something and admitting it are two different things, especially for Tony Stark, and that's why it took until Endgame to finally clear the air. Well, that and the whole we lost to Thanos and my greatest fears have come true and also, my PTSD is back thing. That's not trivial or empty, that's catharsis.
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Apr 14, 2021 01:34
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Ahaha wtf, yeah no Steve and Tony might have respected each other as fellow heroes, but they were not friends and if you guys think that, you're 100% just seeing what you wanted to see instead of what was actually shown in the films which is that they butted heads, bickered, or outright attacked each other in nearly every single scene they ever shared. The fact that they couldn't come to terms with how outright, diametrically incompatible they were with each other as human beings set the stage for and inflamed the utter dissolution of their whole social group. Steve saying that Bucky is his friend and Tony responding "So was I" was not intended as some affirmation that Tony's relationship with Steve was at all comparable to Steve's relationship with Bucky. Tony was saying that he doesn't give a poo poo if Bucky is Steve's friend, he's gonna kill him anyway.
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Apr 14, 2021 01:37
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AJA posted:There's no doubt Civil War was way too ambitious. It tried to be a Captain America movie, an Iron Man movie, and an Avengers movie all at the same time. Yeah but a lot of people still don't understand that these movies are soap operas where all the fight scenes and window dressing are more akin to musical dance numbers and the real meat and potatoes are the character beats. They're wondering why the Avengers being split up wasn't like, the defining reason why they couldn't stop Thanos in Infinity War.
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Apr 14, 2021 01:40
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BrianWilly posted:Ahaha wtf, yeah no Steve and Tony might have respected each other as fellow heroes, but they were not friends and if you guys think that, you're 100% just seeing what you wanted to see instead of what was actually shown in the films which is that they butted heads, bickered, or outright attacked each other in nearly every single scene they ever shared. The fact that they couldn't come to terms with how outright, diametrically incompatible they were with each other as human beings set the stage for and inflamed the utter dissolution of their whole social group. The only time they "outright attacked" each other was the breaking point in Civil War. And apologies for drawing conclusions about your social scene, but if you don't "butt heads" or "bicker" with your RL friends, then what you have might not be friends, but sycophants. And they're not that diametrically incompatible. Steve comes to realize that Tony absolutely would lay down on the wire, and Tony understands that Steve is not some 2-dimensional icon, but a good man always trying to do the right thing, even if the easy way is to just cut the wire.
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Apr 14, 2021 01:46
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In Age of Ultron, Steve and Tony outright threw shields and laser blasted each other regarding the fate of Vision. They worked with each other and might have respected each other, but they were never friends. It's crazy that people would think they were.
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Apr 14, 2021 01:49
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AJA posted:The only time they "outright attacked" each other was the breaking point in Civil War.  Technically there's the scene in Age of Ultron where Tony and Bruce are building Vision and Steve leads the charge in trying to shut it down. quote:And apologies for drawing conclusions about your social scene, but if you don't "butt heads" or "bicker" with your RL friends, then what you have might not be friends, but sycophants.
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Apr 14, 2021 01:50
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I was responding to the two-part direct quote combos of "The entire plot of Civil War hinges on them being friends prior to that point" and "Yeah, reading Cap as not liking Tony just reads so wrong to me." I probably overreacted a bit but this thread has been really throwing me for a loop with how much people see the MCU that they want to see and not the MCU that actually existed, and as we all know there's nothing worse than having wrong opinions about comic book things.
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Apr 14, 2021 01:58
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Tony loves fighting his friends! This is established in Iron Man 2 when he blasts Rhodey through about 4 walls when Rhodey tried to prevent him from operating his Iron Man suit while pants-pissingly drunk. It's a rite of passage.
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Apr 14, 2021 01:58
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BrianWilly posted:Ahaha wtf, yeah no Steve and Tony might have respected each other as fellow heroes, but they were not friends and if you guys think that, you're 100% just seeing what you wanted to see instead of what was actually shown in the films which is that they butted heads, bickered, or outright attacked each other in nearly every single scene they ever shared. The fact that they couldn't come to terms with how outright, diametrically incompatible they were with each other as human beings set the stage for and inflamed the utter dissolution of their whole social group. If you're refuting a direct quote of the films text with "that's not meant the way it's said" then you might want to consider the idea you are the one seeing what you want to see instead of what the films show. Which is putting aside that saying Steve and Tony are friends is not the same as saying their relationship is equivalent to the friendship Steve has with Bucky, and I've no idea what made you say that. Friendship is a very ambiguous term, and there is a lot of wiggle room on how close people involved can be with each other. tsob fucked around with this message at 02:14 on Apr 14, 2021 |
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Apr 14, 2021 02:05
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BrianWilly posted:In Age of Ultron, Steve and Tony outright threw shields and laser blasted each other regarding the fate of Vision. I would argue the point, but I think it would be getting too far into the weeds ...um, plus, I totally forgot that scene. Point conceded. BrianWilly posted:I probably overreacted a bit but this thread has been really throwing me for a loop with how much people see the MCU that they want to see and not the MCU that actually existed  BrianWilly posted:and as we all know there's nothing worse than having wrong opinions about comic book things. 
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Apr 14, 2021 02:09
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BrianWilly posted:as we all know there's nothing worse than having wrong opinions about comic book things. 
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Apr 14, 2021 02:16
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tsob posted:If you're refuting a direct quote of the films text with "that's not meant the way it's said" then you might want to consider the idea you are the one seeing what you want to see instead of what the films show. Proper comprehension of text -- context, subtext, what other text have you -- is a pretty cool skill to have. If Tony says that he and Steve were friends but all we ever saw is them being everything except friendly, either the dialogue means more than it seems on the surface, or we resign ourselves to the fact that line itself wasn't very good. Civil War is actually my favorite MCU film so I'd rather interpret it as the former.
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Apr 14, 2021 02:25
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We do see them hanging out in Age of Ultron a few times, between the party and the film's conclusion where they're ribbing Thor about whether a lift is worthy if it takes Mjolnir up/down. They're friends. How close their friendship is is absolutely up for debate, but the films want you to take them as friends regardless.
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Apr 14, 2021 02:36
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Also the films aren't documentaries filmed in real time a la Highlander so in order for many of the sequences and events for them to make sense you have to imagine that other things happen with these characters between films, or even before the events of the films. I mean fifty percent of the quippy friend dialogue between Black Widow and Hawkeye is about some poorly defined op that never gets expanded on, and that's fine because the line is there to highlight that these characters know and care about each other outside of the events of the movies, even if the lines themselves aren't sold all that well. Every time one of them says Budapest I cringe.
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Apr 14, 2021 02:46
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tsob posted:We do see them hanging out in Age of Ultron a few times, between the party and the film's conclusion where they're ribbing Thor about whether a lift is worthy if it takes Mjolnir up/down. They're friends. How close their friendship is is absolutely up for debate, but the films want you to take them as friends regardless. Steve and Tony's relationship is the common through-line though every Avengers movie (and one Captain America film). From "genius, billionaire, philanthropist" / "put on the suit" to "so was I" / "I thought I was sparing you, but I was really sparing myself" to final catharsis. To me that seems like a lot of time devoted to a simple working relationship or even a case of mutual respect. I can't disprove that, but I think the character beats (not to mention what is the load-bearing relationship at the heart of Civil War) would be much poorer viewing them in that light.
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Apr 14, 2021 02:50
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On a completely different note, I'm hoping the highlighted quotes makes it into the Hawkeye show verbatim as Renner says it over the phone to Clint's wife or something. You could throw it over trailer footage and call it a day as a thesis for the show:
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Apr 14, 2021 02:59
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Bust Rodd posted:Disney+ lays out the timeline pretty concretely by just allowing you to watch the movies in chronological order. Strange takes place right before Thor Ragnarok but definitively after Age of Ultron transpires Doesn't Strange get a surgery opportunity for a "paralyzed veteran in some kind of enhanced military gear" right before his accident that implies that was after Civil War?
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Apr 14, 2021 03:42
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JohnnySavs posted:Doesn't Strange get a surgery opportunity for a "paralyzed veteran in some kind of enhanced military gear" right before his accident that implies that was after Civil War? I think that was a reference to iron man 2 https://youtu.be/oGdhBOvpZiI
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Apr 14, 2021 03:47
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Ravel posted:I do wish Civil War had as its motivating conflict something actually meaningful, and that had an impact in later films. The writers admit that the breakdown in relations at the end of the film had to be immediate because otherwise Tony would have rationally realised Bucky was not in control. And then the actual Avengers split doesn't impact anything story-wise in Infinity War. The reconciliation in Endgame is also a little empty because it's always going to seem trivial by that point. Civil War still needs to happen for two reasons. The Spider-Man Tony connection. Without Civil War, even if Spidey did show up to help Iron Man in Infinity War he wouldn't have the Stark Suit. He dies if he tries to go to space. The other reason is so anyone alive at the Avengers compound has heard of Ant-Man. Without Civil War, only Falcon knew him and he was snapped. Without Civil War, Ant-Man and Wasp plays out very differently. Scott might not be in the quantum realm when the snap happens. He potentially gets snapped in this situation. Spacebump fucked around with this message at 04:42 on Apr 14, 2021 |
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Apr 14, 2021 04:39
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Spacebump posted:Civil War still needs to happen for two reasons. Both of those could still happen with a different character conflict.
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Apr 14, 2021 05:36
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Azhais posted:I think that was a reference to iron man 2 I just rewatched Iron Man 2, today. I forgot how good it was. I miss the bulkier suits that make whirring and pistons noises when the wearer moves. I also miss tech heroes doing actual gritty, hands on engineering instead of rubbing Vibranium on stuff.
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Apr 14, 2021 05:37
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mind the walrus posted:On a completely different note, I'm hoping the highlighted quotes makes it into the Hawkeye show verbatim as Renner says it over the phone to Clint's wife or something. You could throw it over trailer footage and call it a day as a thesis for the show: it could have been so drat good  
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Apr 14, 2021 06:02
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Solenna posted:The only keeping me from being 100% hype for the new Hawkeye show is it reminds me that Iron Fist was already made into a mediocre tv show, and that upsets me greatly. It's one of my favourite comic book runs ever. Yes but Iron Fist was not under the complete control of Marvel Studios. Hawkeye is.
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Apr 14, 2021 07:26
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Doctor Nutt posted:A self sustaining 100% clean and unlimited energy source would blow up anything resembling modern economic theory, which is kind of what I'm getting at. I want the writers to imagine that instead of imagining a half-sentence of expository dialogue to explain why everything not related to Avenging is just as lovely in the MCU as it is in reality. You know the conversation will go like this: "How is this ... Ark Reactor ... going to be paid for?" "Through taxes. But it will give everyone in your city free energy forever." "Everyone? Including ... those people?" "Yes, everyone." "gently caress you, commie!" And we don't have to imagine it through exposition, we've loving seen it on the screen.
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Apr 14, 2021 08:11
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Kwanzaa Quickie posted:On a separate note, my favorite pet of TWS is on the freeway when Bucky punches through the roof of the car and rips the steering wheel off while Sam is driving. It’s such a delightfully dickish move. And that's the first time they meet! Sorta!  They've come a long way since. Re: Power Broker stuff. I don't think it's Zola, but I think it could be interesting, because in addition to all the other reasons mentioned a few pages ago, he's also the one who turned Bucky into the Winter Soldier, so they have a vested interest in maybe taking him down in future movies/series.
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Apr 14, 2021 08:57
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Dr. Clockwork posted:With a box of scraps! I chuckled to myself for a long while after reading this, so thanks Obadiah.
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Apr 14, 2021 09:08
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Jedit posted:You know the conversation will go like this: The thing is Iron Man establishes that on the one hand Arc Reactors require unique-genius level intellect to design, but on the other hand once you know how to make them then you can do it with an assortment of random rocket parts in a cave in Afghanistan. e: I think Spiderman answers this question to the extent we'll ever get an answer - Stark Industries is hoovering up all the Alien tech that gets dropped on Earth and now makes money from civilian applications. But a lot of the tech you see in the MCU is either from aliens thousands of years ahead of Earth or derived from one of the magic stones that has power over the entire cosmos so is probably difficult to reverse engineer and mass produce. e2: the final villain will be Battlestar who is going to be picked up and resurrected by the Power Broker and sent to merge with the Power Broker's boss, becoming the Battlestar Galacticus Alchenar fucked around with this message at 09:38 on Apr 14, 2021 |
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Apr 14, 2021 09:32
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Lammasu posted:Yes but Iron Fist was not under the complete control of Marvel Studios. Hawkeye is.
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Apr 14, 2021 10:23
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Solenna posted:That's the problem, Hawkeye will be by Marvel Studios proper and probably good, and watching it will make me think about how good a Marvel Studios version of Iron Fist could have been. Well, popular rumor is that Kevin Feige wants to bring Charlie Cox, Krysten Ritter and Mike Colter into the MCU as Daredevil, Jessica Jones and Luke Cage, but not Finn Jones as Danny Rand; and that when he does so he'll be ensuring that people know that while it's the same actors, it's a new take on the characters by having Daredevil dating Echo, among other possible changes. It's entirely possible that Luke Cage will get a new Danny if there's a Defenders or Heroes for Hire show or something. I share you disappointment personally, since the Iron Fist adaptation was the one I was most looking forward to, primarily because it seemed plausible they'd adapt Brubaker's run and then the Daredevil show had Madame Gao, the crane symbol etc. further suggesting that we'd be getting an adaptation of the Seven Cities of Heaven stuff. In the end I never even watched the show because nothing about it looked promising.
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Apr 14, 2021 11:08
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