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76 | 50.67% |
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| Total: | 127 votes | ||
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Turns out the real monsters were the people we befriended along the way
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Apr 15, 2021 18:53
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| # ? May 26, 2024 19:07 |
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Grip it and rip it posted:Lobbying is a pretty direct byproduct of our economic system imo. At least in the form it has taken on in D.C. Exactly. It is baked in corruption that rewards Capital and the holders of Capital with political power.
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Apr 15, 2021 18:54
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UP THE BUM NO BABY posted:Really diving into pedantry to give Capital a pass It's not pedantry, you're just flinging poo poo at walls. Edit: Lobbying specifically has expanded greatly in the modern era, but it both predates capitalism and the US significantly and has replaced a great deal of other forms of corruption.
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Apr 15, 2021 18:55
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UP THE BUM NO BABY posted:Really diving into pedantry to give Capital a pass I mean I'm not trying to give it a pass, because like I said capitalism rewards greed and shortsightedness in really, really open and obvious ways. It's a system that inherently begets inequality and rewards ruthlessness and inhumanity. I just get cynical when people talk about problems with the implication that getting rid of capitalism would solve them, when imo that's not really the case.
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Apr 15, 2021 18:57
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Acebuckeye13 posted:I mean I'm not trying to give it a pass, because like I said capitalism rewards greed and shortsightedness in really, really open and obvious ways. It's a system that inherently begets inequality and rewards ruthlessness and inhumanity. I just get cynical when people talk about problems with the implication that getting rid of capitalism would solve them, when imo that's not really the case. That's not what I'm saying tho. I'm saying that lobbying as we know it is tied into capitalism and it is bad. I'm not saying that getting rid of political lobbying magically fixes any of the problems in our country, but that it contributes to increasing inequality and the shift of power away from people and into the hands of Capital.
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Apr 15, 2021 18:59
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Just  if you focus more on the gasoline that is thrown on the fire and not the candle that it was thrown on.
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Apr 15, 2021 19:00
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boop the snoot posted:Just The room is on fire and people are trying to blow out the candle. Edit; Maybe that's what you're saying? I'm not sure.
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Apr 15, 2021 19:01
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Godholio posted:The room is on fire and people are trying to blow out the candle. I’m saying that who cares when bribery and corruption were *~*founded*~* when capitalism has been a firehose of gasoline on the corruption fire. I don’t give a poo poo that in the 1600s the guy with the most oxen had the most power because I live in 2021, under capitalism. What even is your argument? Because it seems like you’re being pedantic just to be right and make someone else wrong. “Well actually, centuries ago...” boop the snoot fucked around with this message at 19:08 on Apr 15, 2021 |
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Apr 15, 2021 19:06
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That dude that owned all that oxen? All his offspring were industrialists. They hired Pinkertons and ran for public office, then used their wealth to put a mentally declining actor in the presidency to tell the people unions and taxes were bad. America.
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Apr 15, 2021 19:11
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Well you see it’s economics that causes it, not capitalism. Ergo,
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Apr 15, 2021 19:13
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boop the snoot posted:I’m saying that who cares when bribery and corruption were *~*founded*~* when capitalism has been a firehose of gasoline on the corruption fire. I don’t give a poo poo that in the 1600s the guy with the most oxen had the most power because I live in 2021, under capitalism. Is it really a firehose of corruption? The US today is vastly less corrupt than in the 1800s where every federal job was seen as the spoils of victory for winning an election.
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Apr 15, 2021 19:19
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And something about drinking milkshakes with an angled straw. You know what would be fun? Milkshaking rich people. But then one of them would probably start an LLC fleet of milkshake distributors and eventually we'd only find boutique shakes at triple the price of a shamrock shake because if rich people are going to have desserts thrown at them, they better be rich too.
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Apr 15, 2021 19:22
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wins32767 posted:Is it really a firehose of corruption? The US today is vastly less corrupt than in the 1800s where every federal job was seen as the spoils of victory for winning an election. lol
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Apr 15, 2021 19:22
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wins32767 posted:Is it really a firehose of corruption? The US today is vastly less corrupt than in the 1800s where every federal job was seen as the spoils of victory for winning an election. That’s because corruption been funneled upward and been codified, and if not codified is just a slap on the wrist for people who are wealthy. Just look at the GameStop fiasco where the super rich committed corruption brazenly out in the open as a reaction to the exact same corrupt poo poo they do every single day. . And there’s a significant wealth gap that didn’t exist in the 1800s which has exacerbated this problem. And that wealth gap was created by *drumroll* trading cattle like the 1800s! No, wait.. boop the snoot fucked around with this message at 19:25 on Apr 15, 2021 |
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Apr 15, 2021 19:23
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wins32767 posted:Is it really a firehose of corruption? The US today is vastly less corrupt than in the 1800s where every federal job was seen as the spoils of victory for winning an election. Hahaha
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Apr 15, 2021 19:31
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At least it wasn't blue waffles.
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Apr 15, 2021 19:32
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boop the snoot posted:That’s because corruption been funneled upward and been codified, and if not codified is just a slap on the wrist for people who are wealthy. Just look at the GameStop fiasco where the super rich committed corruption brazenly out in the open as a reaction to the exact same corrupt poo poo they do every single day. Look, I don't disagree that things are bad right now, but they're still roughly within the bounds of what's come before in terms of inequality. Capitalism isn't the sole cause of inequality, weak democratic institutions are just as impactful, if not moreso.
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Apr 15, 2021 19:33
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Its less that capitalism is cause, and more that its the thing that binds all the causes together in a much more efficient machine for loving the not-rich
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Apr 15, 2021 19:35
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Capitalism is the motive force that has all these societal flaw marching in lockstep
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Apr 15, 2021 19:35
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wins32767 posted:Capitalism isn't the sole cause of inequality, weak democratic institutions are just as impactful, if not moreso. This is basically Picketty's argument although I think he'd say that capitalism is the sole cause of inequality but democratic institutions can and should prevent that inequality from developing through active intervention. So capitalism is the cause, institutions are the mediator, humans should probably work on fixing both.
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Apr 15, 2021 19:36
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I think it's important to note what the actual causes are, because if the US came back from a high degree of inequality within (barely) living memory, then clearly it's possible to do without burning the whole system down.
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Apr 15, 2021 19:37
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Took some flak here for saying this was BS last year https://twitter.com/NoahShachtman/status/1382713472056709123?s=19
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Apr 15, 2021 19:37
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Notahippie posted:This is basically Picketty's argument although I think he'd say that capitalism is the sole cause of inequality but democratic institutions can and should prevent that inequality from developing through active intervention. So capitalism is the cause, institutions are the mediator, humans should probably work on fixing both. Yeah, I disagree with him in that I don't see capitalism as the cause, any sort of positive feedback loop that exists is going to result in much the same outcome without some significant balancing measures. The warlord who can take land which lets him raise a bigger army to take more land is going to yield some pretty terrible inequality as well. wins32767 fucked around with this message at 20:21 on Apr 15, 2021 |
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Apr 15, 2021 19:38
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boop the snoot posted:I’m saying that who cares when bribery and corruption were *~*founded*~* when capitalism has been a firehose of gasoline on the corruption fire. I don’t give a poo poo that in the 1600s the guy with the most oxen had the most power because I live in 2021, under capitalism. My argument was that he made a bad post. I'm not surprised you're here to defend it. If you want to fix a problem it helps to understand the problem. "lol capitalism sux" isn't a solution, nor is abolition of capitalism. It might solve some problems, but the biggest ones will just shift into some other slightly different form because capitalism isn't the root of the problem...it's a system that evolved to take advantage of extant circumstances, and that is not loving pedantry. Godholio fucked around with this message at 19:41 on Apr 15, 2021 |
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Apr 15, 2021 19:39
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Bored As gently caress posted:At least it wasn't blue waffles. Thanks for the mental trip back two decades.
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Apr 15, 2021 19:40
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Godholio posted:My argument was that he made a bad post. I'm not surprised you're here to defend it. I wonder how someone is expected to respond to a constructive post like this....? I know.. You were being a pedantic poo poo.
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Apr 15, 2021 19:41
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boop the snoot posted:I wonder how someone is expected to respond to a constructive post like this....? I was editing. Reminder that this is the "constructive post" you're defending: UP THE BUM NO BABY posted:Almost like capitalism bad
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Apr 15, 2021 19:41
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Godholio posted:I was editing. You were being a pedantic poo poo, is what you were doing. boop the snoot posted:Well you see it’s economics and people that causes it, not the system we have that is directly facilitating it. Ergo, Nobody gives a poo poo where corruption came from. It’s built into humankind obviously. But our economic system is the driving force behind this corruption so I will absolutely claim that capitalism sucks, you pedantic poo poo.
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Apr 15, 2021 19:44
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UP THE BUM NO BABY posted:That's not what I'm saying tho. I'm saying that lobbying as we know it is tied into capitalism and it is bad. I'm not saying that getting rid of political lobbying magically fixes any of the problems in our country, but that it contributes to increasing inequality and the shift of power away from people and into the hands of Capital. How would lobbying disappear if the state controlled everything instead of private industry? China still has types of lobbying. Greed and corruption would be endemic to society as a whole, not tied to an economic or political system. It may be more evident or the symptoms might be different under communism.
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Apr 15, 2021 19:44
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E: nvm. Godholio you’re a pedantic poo poo and you are that way so that you can find disagreement to be right about. It’s infuriating and you do it all the time in this thread.
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Apr 15, 2021 19:45
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If I donate $5 to a pet rescue can we please silo off capitalism vs socialism into another thread? This may actually be worse the cop, gun, or bike chat.
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Apr 15, 2021 19:45
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boop the snoot posted:E: nvm. Godholio you’re a pedantic poo poo and you are that way so that you can find disagreement to be right about. It’s infuriating and you do it all the time in this thread. This is the post you're defending: UP THE BUM NO BABY posted:Almost like capitalism bad Edit: Ok, I didn't realize who you were. gently caress you Cole, after the bullshit in our last conversations on the side you don't get to pull that poo poo. gently caress off forever. Godholio fucked around with this message at 19:50 on Apr 15, 2021 |
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Apr 15, 2021 19:48
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Godholio posted:and that is not loving pedantry. It's funny how it's always pedantry and never EVER unclear word choice on purpose to gently caress with people.
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Apr 15, 2021 19:48
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Godholio posted:This is the post you're defending: I’m not defending that post, I’m attacking your stupid “lol gotcha” post that corruption existed before capitalism, as if capitalism isn’t the driving force behind corruption in our entire lifetimes.
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Apr 15, 2021 19:50
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Mr. Nice! posted:If any of y'all haven't watched Pat Robertson play with guns, you should. I hate poo poo like this - it's so clearly ignorant of body alarm reaction, adrenaline dumps, and what fight/flight/freeze scenarios do to the human body and brain. "Hyuck we can tell the difference obviously! Look! They're so different!" But these are calm people in a studio, not someone whose body just dumped a gently caress ton of stress hormones in their body. Without repeated and realistic stress inoculation training, during an adrenaline dump you lose fine motor skills, experience perceptual distortions (tunnel vision, auditory exclusion, time seeming to slow down or speed up), and you lose the ability the think clearly. I'm absolutely not making excuses for the officer or what she did - she is absolutely, 100% at fault for what happened, and I believe she commited negligent homicide. But what she did exhibits how lovely her training was, how little stress inoculation she must have received, and how lovely of an officer she is. This shouldn't happen with a rookie fresh out of the academy, much less someone who was supposedly training other officers. She clearly remembered part of her training, saying "taser taser taser" before shooting that poor kid, but apparently she wasn't trained well enough to notice the different feel of the grip or the different look of the taser vs her Glock during an adrenaline dump. It's very likely that she had tunnel vision, and she almost assuredly lost most of her fine motor skills. This should highlight how shittily trained she was, and also highlights the fact that realistic, scenario based training needs to happen way more, in every department across the country. If Officers are going to be given guns and be given the authority to use violence on behalf of the state, they must be held to a higher standard. And when they gently caress up, they need to be put in jail. Period. They have to be trained better. Stress inoculation training is so important to make sure that they remain as calm as possible during a stressful incident where their body goes into fight/flight/freeze mode.
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Apr 15, 2021 19:53
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We’re done arguing about capitalism and corruption now, thank you.
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Apr 15, 2021 20:11
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wins32767 posted:Uh... https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Robber_baron_(industrialist) Not the sole cause, but you are high a poo poo if you do not believe its not part of it.
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Apr 15, 2021 20:15
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https://twitter.com/jbenmenachem/status/1382748010996768773?s=19quote:Yet police officers and organizations say pretext stops are a “valuable tool” to promote driver safety or to find drugs and other illegal activities. Car accidents are a serious and deadly problem, killing thousands of Americans every year. But recent studies have questioned just how much pretext traffic stops actually encourage safe driving or prevent accidents. A study last year looked at the city of Fayetteville, North Carolina, which re-prioritized traffic stops away from economic reasons like expired plates or registration, or investigatory reasons (when police use a traffic stop to gather evidence for a larger investigation), and toward safety reasons, like stopping drivers who were speeding or running a red light. They found that traffic injuries and fatalities were reduced, while non-traffic crimes stayed the same or were reduced, suggesting that non-safety related traffic stops do little to prevent accidents or other crimes. quote:Most people break traffic laws. But enforcement usually comes down to skin color. quote:Since the 1990s, state and local jurisdictions have expanded the types and costs of fees and fines sentenced to people convicted of traffic violations, juvenile, misdemeanor, and felony offenses. The massive expansion of the criminal legal system — the number of people incarcerated in the United States has grown 500 percent over the last 40 years — is connected to cities, counties, and states that faced economic shortfalls. Jurisdictions simply cannot afford the costs related to policing, detention, prosecution, conviction, and related punishments. quote:For those who are too poor to pay, these legal financial obligations become penal debt that hangs like a cloud over their families’ lives. quote:Ending policing for profit
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Apr 15, 2021 20:26
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I lived in NCO housing on Schofield and worked at Kunia. While I was there there were multiple rapes, a murder suicide and I was repeatedly warned by the base MPs not to walk near the infantry barracks because they "couldn't ensure my safety." Not enough pancakes I tell you what.
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Apr 15, 2021 20:48
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This is interesting. I agree that police and the word "revenue" should never be in the same room. I also get that minorities are disproportionately targeted for minor offenses that generate this "revenue". What is the end state though? No more speed limits (or maybe their enforcement?) because of the way the law is enforced? Should the tickets issued by any given official need to fit the distribution of the locality to ensure minorities aren't being targeted? Even if the police force is abolished and then radically changed, this issue will still be kicking around. Let's say we get the enforcement to be considered "impartial" (I don't know, speed cameras?). Smart money is that we will still see a minority group disproportionately represented due to some other issue they have, like needing to commute longer distances due to housing cost and pay discrepancy. (I don't know exactly what, but America is good at making systems that screw over minorities.) Even with "impartial" enforcement, the fines still work as a "poor tax", the wealthy still don't care about $300. Do we maybe need laws that are fewer in number, but broader in scope that only matter in the event of injury or property destruction? I'm trying to figure out how fully fix something like this without turning the local interstate/highway into a Fury Road re-enactment.
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Apr 15, 2021 20:50
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