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The Real Amethyst posted:Jesus christ, I'm always amazed by how petrochemical plants are slap bang in the middle of residential neighborhoods in major US cities like LA. A lot of times the plant/refinery/whatever was there long before the houses were.
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Apr 17, 2021 13:43
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Selklubber posted:If you're doing industrial control analogy, is there any industrial control systems with versions other than production? (I hope there is, because its interesting) DelphiAegis posted:Doesn't the fluorine love calcium, and basically ignore gloves/other PPE such that even a drop is enough to severely gently caress you up and possibly cause death due to your bones calcium being replaced by fluorine and breaking? Most acids are nightmare fuel, but fluorine was particularly loving awful. A large enough burn requires outpatient treatment to neutralize and monitor blood serum levels for acute hypocalcemia. HF was passed over as a chemical weapons because it's exceedingly easy to drop the clouds with some water hoses because it just loving loved water. The real reason to be worried about refineries in suburban zones is it's just generally a huge amount of potential and chemical energy, the release of any of which will gently caress your day up. These single chemical exposed are sensational news but if they get us to rethink zoning and help subsidize the neighbors to move somewhere better great but lol at any of that happening on hell society. Besides an excursion at a chemical plant might ruin a few hundred people's day but refineries are ruining 7 billion people's day incrementally, every day.
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Apr 17, 2021 13:48
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DelphiAegis posted:Doesn't the fluorine love calcium, and basically ignore gloves/other PPE such that even a drop is enough to severely gently caress you up and possibly cause death due to your bones calcium being replaced by fluorine and breaking? Most acids are nightmare fuel, but fluorine was particularly loving awful. Yea HF is more of a bone-hurting juice than an organ melter
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Apr 17, 2021 14:12
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zedprime posted:Distributed control systems and PLC have dev environments by virtue of being a workflow where you build and compile on a PC and load to field hardware later. I.e. your dev environment is the dev PC. If you really dish out the cash you can get like IO mirrored into your engineering dev PC and get delta reports of how control loops worked in dev vs prod and cool poo poo but I don't know that anyone's really paying for that. Hi I work in industrial controls (too?). Some sites, generally the more profitable plants, have development environments but in every one I've seen the IO is simulated. So, no cool delta reports as you describe but it still catches a ton of poo poo much easier than when doing validation as part of the startup. More regulated industries mandate formalized change controls and do code compares before and after you do anything, but not everybody.
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Apr 17, 2021 14:13
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Nutty Putty Cave Part 1 of 5: Hold on again it's getting foggy again let me wipe it off No it's because I farted
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Apr 17, 2021 14:15
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Evilreaver posted:Yea HF is more of a bone-hurting juice than an organ melter If you inhale enough of it in gaseous form your heart will stop beating, which is somewhat of a concern. It's the liquid form that seeps through your flesh and makes your bones bubble.
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Apr 17, 2021 14:16
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Apr 17, 2021 14:29
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What's wrong with some electricitree?
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Apr 17, 2021 14:30
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Iirc a 5cm X 5cm patch of HF on your skin is a fatal dose Oof ow my bones
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Apr 17, 2021 14:31
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thanks for talking about how dangerous Hydro flourine is guys
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Apr 17, 2021 14:36
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excuse me hydrogen fluoride
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Apr 17, 2021 14:38
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Mr. Fix It posted:I saw this pop up in the vernacular press last night and knew it would be some scary fodder for this thread So naturally they set the gas powered power washer up in the basement and get to work. The younger of the two guys ends up feeling dizzy, can't breathe, so they stop and go outside. They decide to call the ambulance. While waiting for the ambulance, the other guy goes back in and keeps power washing. The EMTs arrive, start treating the younger guy and then in a panic run in and grab the other guy and get him to accompany them to the hospital. Young guy gets put in a hyperbaric chamber. They run some tests on the older guy (honestly don't remember if it's just a pulse ox, or blood gas analysis or what), but he's objectively far more monoxide poisoned than the young guy, but feels totally fine and declines treatment, back at work the next day ready to demo.
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Apr 17, 2021 14:42
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I feel like you just discovered Bruce Willis from Unbreakable
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Apr 17, 2021 15:09
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Slugworth posted:This reminded me of a personal OSHA. Reminds me of the time I was glueing up a bunch of PVC conduit in this little crawlspace, access off the basement, about 24" high. I got done, got out of the crawlspace and immediately fell down because I was high as poo poo on glue fumes.
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Apr 17, 2021 15:26
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what the gently caress is that story? In my short stints last year as a roofer at a labor pool I got told some really depressing 'guy dies on the job' type stories that were enough to last me a lifetime really. Slugworth posted:We didn't think to tell them "set it up outside and run the hose down into the basement" because, well, no poo poo, right? this is the part where communication broke down. Don't assume poo poo shithead thats how people loving die?
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Apr 17, 2021 15:29
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Sjs00 posted:what the gently caress is that story?
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Apr 17, 2021 15:37
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Slugworth posted:I think it's fair to say some stuff is common enough sense *gestures at this entire thread in bewilderment*
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Apr 17, 2021 15:39
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https://i.imgur.com/MUG6PCB.gifv
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Apr 17, 2021 15:52
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Sjs00 posted:excuse me hydrogen fluoride I'm not a molecule toucher, but if read enough to know to stay the gently caress away from fluorine based acids.
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Apr 17, 2021 15:58
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Uthor posted:I'm not a molecule toucher, but if read enough to know to stay the gently caress away from fluorine based acids. I think you've definitely touched molecules
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Apr 17, 2021 16:07
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DelphiAegis posted:Doesn't the fluorine love calcium, and basically ignore gloves/other PPE such that even a drop is enough to severely gently caress you up and possibly cause death due to your bones calcium being replaced by fluorine and breaking? Most acids are nightmare fuel, but fluorine was particularly loving awful. You’re conflating HF with dimethylmercury. HF does not ignore gloves, and a drop will not severely gently caress you up.
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Apr 17, 2021 16:17
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Slugworth posted:I mean, in the grand scheme of things, I would agree any workplace should have pretty robust training to avoid injury and death, but by the same token, I think it's fair to say some stuff is common enough sense that's it's reasonable not to think to mention it to someone. We did in fact end up having a meeting about it and kept the incident in mind in the future. But "internal combustion devices can poison you" just honestly didn't cross anyone's mind. It was a job we had done a hundred times before, both of those guys had been with the company for awhile, and seen it done correctly. its an incredible story regardless and glad those guys were okay.
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Apr 17, 2021 16:58
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titty_baby_ posted:I think you've definitely touched molecules Bold assumption, corporeal-body-haver.
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Apr 17, 2021 17:34
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Uncle Enzo posted:Wait I missed it. What car am I supposed to pay attention to?? You know you're driving, right?
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Apr 17, 2021 17:50
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CHRISTINE X TREMORS IN THEATERS SUMMER 2022 The crossover
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Apr 17, 2021 17:56
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The Real Amethyst posted:Hmm yes I love living next door to this. No need for concern citizens, this 3 hour burn off is a "normal safety procedure and poses no risk to health". Yup grew up down the street from the refinery, have an uncle who works there. Every few months he calls us up to tell us to tape our windows closed cause somethings up. Zero alarms. Oh yeah he’s retiring this because it was sold off a few years back and conditions are going to poo poo because the new company just doesn’t give a gently caress about anything beyond Numbers Go Up. a sexual elk fucked around with this message at 18:01 on Apr 17, 2021 |
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Apr 17, 2021 17:58
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madeintaipei posted:You know you're driving, right? I'M AWAKE! The guy hit me and shoved me off the road!
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Apr 17, 2021 17:59
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All this refinery talk reminds me of the year and half where a tech at the BP-Husky Toledo refinery, who was apparently in the habit of forwarding internal emails to his personal Gmail account, started confusing his address with mine (we have the exact same name). I hardly use that account so by the time I noticed there was about a year's worth of all kinds of sensitive info in my inbox, up to and including public IP addresses and user/passwords of control systems inside the plant (no, I never tried any). It took another month or two of me trying to reach somebody who cared about this gaping security hole, which ended up being the CISC/CFATS, who replied to my voicemail in under 24 hours. That turned into a 4-way phone call with them, the FBI, someone from Homeland and head of security or something for Husky energy, the first half of which was me educating them on how gmail addresses work and explaining that no, he hadn't hacked my account, he was just an idiot. The emails stopped pretty soon after that, though I still get the occasional dating app or casino frequent player account welcome emails.
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Apr 17, 2021 17:59
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Fluorine ions can be extremely dangerous because they want nothing more than to be bonded to something else. Hydrofluoric acid (the HF we're talking about) will tear apart all kinds of stable carbon compounds, such as those your body is made of, in order to bond with those atoms themselves. Chlorine trifluoride is so reactive that it can light sand on fire, bonding with the silica even though hardly anything else will. Sarin nerve gas works by having a reactive fluorine ion that gets into your neurotransmitters and latches on so strongly nothing can pull it back off. This property also means that fully bonded fluorine compounds are extremely safe and inert. Teflon is a polymer of carbon atoms completely chock-full of fluorine, and nothing is going to make that fluorine let go of the carbon, so the compound doesn't react with (or even stick to) anything. The reason that fluoride strengthens your teeth is the fluorine replaces some of the hydroxide ions in your tooth enamel, and then it just stays there and ignores the bacterial acids because it would much rather be bonded to the tooth enamel than floating around in solution. In conclusion, fluorine is a land of contrasts. Thank you
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Apr 17, 2021 18:14
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That's also why HF is considered a weak acid. A strong acid like HCl or HNO3 or H2SO4 is defined by the fact that in solution it complete disassociates; dissolve HCl in water and it basically completely deprotonates, the concentration of HCl is effectively zero. With HF, the F wants to hang on to the H so strongly that it only partly disassociates.
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Apr 17, 2021 18:36
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Sagebrush posted:Fluorine ions can be extremely dangerous because they want nothing more than to be bonded to something else. Hydrofluoric acid (the HF we're talking about) will tear apart all kinds of stable carbon compounds, such as those your body is made of, in order to bond with those atoms themselves. Chlorine trifluoride is so reactive that it can light sand on fire, bonding with the silica even though hardly anything else will. Sarin nerve gas works by having a reactive fluorine ion that gets into your neurotransmitters and latches on so strongly nothing can pull it back off. Bbbbbut, I saw a meme on faceook that said fluoride is an acid so when you drink water with fluoride in it, your drinking acid and acid is bad because its acid!! *doesn't bother looking at the ingredients of pretty much everything sold at the grocery store with its lactic acid, citric acid, ascorbic acid et.al. but shares meme about fluoride "OMG THERE FEEDING US ACID"!!!
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Apr 17, 2021 18:41
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https://i.imgur.com/mePL61u.mp4
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Apr 17, 2021 19:16
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life is hard at the kraft singles factory
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Apr 17, 2021 19:23
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AmbassadorofSodomy posted:Bbbbbut, I saw a meme on faceook that said fluoride is an acid so when you drink water with fluoride in it, your drinking acid and acid is bad because its acid!! This is extra great because the fluoride ion is the conjugate base of HF. On the other hand, the OSHA thread might be the wrong place to assume nobody would be negligent enough to fluoridate water with HF.
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Apr 17, 2021 19:27
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Archduke Frantz Fanon posted:life is hard at the kraft singles factory This, plus the post above it that it was replying to, made me laugh real hard on page 800 of the glorious OSHA thread.
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Apr 17, 2021 20:33
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Sagebrush posted:Fluorine ions can be extremely dangerous because they want nothing more than to be bonded to something else. Hydrofluoric acid (the HF we're talking about) will tear apart all kinds of stable carbon compounds, such as those your body is made of, in order to bond with those atoms themselves. Chlorine trifluoride is so reactive that it can light sand on fire, bonding with the silica even though hardly anything else will. Sarin nerve gas works by having a reactive fluorine ion that gets into your neurotransmitters and latches on so strongly nothing can pull it back off. Phanatic posted:That's also why HF is considered a weak acid. A strong acid like HCl or HNO3 or H2SO4 is defined by the fact that in solution it complete disassociates; dissolve HCl in water and it basically completely deprotonates, the concentration of HCl is effectively zero. With HF, the F wants to hang on to the H so strongly that it only partly disassociates. Fluorine chemistry as an industrial discipline is the science of begging and pleading with rear end in a top hat fluorine divas to please get your rear end into the right spot on the organic molecule and using massive chemical potential energies in the form of heat, pressure, mixing, or complexing super acids with antimony to please to be getting in your loving place. Once in an organic they can be incredibly stable but still tend to do things like outgas phosgene-like molecules if heated a bit too much. As far as we can tell not really in a concerning amount for most living things but if I had pet birds I'd probably stick to stainless steel cookware.
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Apr 17, 2021 20:37
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Okay, I give up. What’s the OSHA part?
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Apr 17, 2021 21:25
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Bumble Dong posted:Okay, I give up. What’s the OSHA part? No helmet, those tiles could fall on his head!
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Apr 17, 2021 21:26
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no eye pro
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Apr 17, 2021 21:27
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He's just letting the Kraft singles fall on the floor. They could get contaminated.
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Apr 17, 2021 21:31
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