|
Ravenfood posted:You read a sentence that had two separate "mays" in it, both of which individually need to occur for a verdict to be overturned, and somehow jumped to "definitely will." I didn't say is definitely would, I said it could. But the root of what I was trying to get to, was simply that regardless of the Jury deliberations. This whole situation is far from over. Jury members are driving through Riot's to get to court every day. Members of Congress are calling for increased action in confronting the reality of racism in American Justice. It is hard to argue that circumstances don't sway a Jury. And when the burden to proof is on the prosecution, it makes for a difficult reality.There is a saying "Better that 10 guilty men go free, then one innocent man be punished." The reality of that understanding of law leads to a poo poo situation were sometimes a monster goes free. And I think there is a real possibility we are about to witness the consequences of that. Gunthen fucked around with this message at 18:24 on Apr 20, 2021 |
#
?
Apr 20, 2021 18:20
|
|
|
|
| # ? May 28, 2024 01:16 |
|
|
Jaxyon posted:Tell me more about how horrible LA is, while we discuss the "violent" rhetoric of this "low IQ individual" Maxine Waters. I'd still like to know about the consequences of speaking badly about elected officials while visiting their districts.
|
|
#
?
Apr 20, 2021 18:22
|
|
|
Gunthen posted:I didn't say is definitely would, I said if could. But the root of what I was trying to get to, was simply that regardless of the Jury deliberations. This whole situation is far from over.  Where are these riots and why haven't I seen them when I've been biking through downtown these past few weeks?
|
|
#
?
Apr 20, 2021 18:24
|
|
|
TheBuilder posted:I'd still like to know about the consequences of speaking badly about elected officials while visiting their districts. Maxine Waters is very well liked in LA. You'd probably make a bunch of people pissed off. I'd still like to know more about how stupid this black woman is.
|
|
#
?
Apr 20, 2021 18:25
|
|
|
I, for one, look forward to the next
|
|
#
?
Apr 20, 2021 18:27
|
|
I CANNOT EJACULATE WITHOUT SEEING NATIVE AMERICANS BRUTALISED!
|
Kalit posted:
https://www.latimes.com/world-natio...olice-encounter https://www.nytimes.com/live/2021/04/12/us/protests-today-daunte-wright-minneapolis There have been protests in the Minneapolis Area after the Daunte Wright shooting in the last week.
|
|
#
?
Apr 20, 2021 18:34
|
|
|
Jaxyon posted:Tell me more about how horrible LA is, while we discuss the "violent" rhetoric of this "low IQ individual" Maxine Waters. You're being super defensive about Congresswoman Waters. This isn't a case of two extremes. Good people can do dumb things and it doesn't change the good they've done. Similarly, people can disagree with and criticize what someone did and it doesn't mean they're now cancelled. What Ms. Waters said wasn't dumb or even wrong. However, the timing of her statement was ill thought out. This was the day before a jury was about to be sequestered for deliberation and (however small it was) she gave the defense lawyer of a racist murderer a solid piece to use in an appeal to a potential guilty verdict.
|
|
#
?
Apr 20, 2021 18:34
|
|
|
Gunthen posted:https://www.latimes.com/world-natio...olice-encounter The question still stands, where are the riots?
|
|
#
?
Apr 20, 2021 18:38
|
|
|
Gunthen posted:https://www.latimes.com/world-natio...olice-encounter Those are protests. Riots are like what happened on 1/6.
|
|
#
?
Apr 20, 2021 18:38
|
|
|
Gunthen posted:https://www.latimes.com/world-natio...olice-encounter Brooklyn Center is not even in the same county as Minneapolis. And the looting/burning only occurred a couple of nights, not during the day, mostly in Brooklyn Center (a handful of stores got looted in Minneapolis). The rest were protests that the police decided to escalate by firing tear gas/etc. All of the jurors live in Hennepin county. None of them were driving through any of it. Certainly not every day.
|
|
#
?
Apr 20, 2021 18:40
|
|
|
the far right already tried to organize an intimidation rally against maxine waters in her home district in LA It didn't go anywhere, to put it lightly. Also there was some great footage of local grandpas intercepting every out of place looking old white guy in an rv or pickup that was showing up and strongly suggesting they go do oathkeeper stuff literally anywhere else. https://www.latimes.com/local/lanow/la-me-ln-maxine-waters-protest-20180719-story.html also lol if your lovely militia gets derailed by a few grandpas with baseball bats Herstory Begins Now fucked around with this message at 18:43 on Apr 20, 2021 |
|
#
?
Apr 20, 2021 18:41
|
|
|
Velocity Raptor posted:You're being super defensive about Congresswoman Waters. I'm being super upset because a bunch of people are buying into rightwing rhetoric in an attempt to blame an "angry black woman" for the racism that's about to happen. And using much of the same arguments that a right wing poster would make about her. Basically: CommieGIR posted:There's been plenty before, during, and will be more after the trial to frame as "Grounds for Appeal", the entire point is muddying the waters by arguing that legitimate community outrage by community members and leaders is somehow an escape rope for Police who commit violent actions. Once again we have "I couldn't be manipulated by racist talking points, I'm not racist! I'm exceptional!" at play.
|
|
#
?
Apr 20, 2021 18:42
|
|
|
Velocity Raptor posted:You're being super defensive about Congresswoman Waters. If right wingers hadn't latched on to Waters' comments, they would have found something else to use as an excuse for why Chauvin should not be held accountable. They're desperate to make sure a white cop is never held responsible for murdering minorities; not to see justice done or to stop a riot.
|
|
#
?
Apr 20, 2021 18:44
|
|
|
I haven't been reading the thread and I came to ask a question so I apologise if this has been covered in depth already: Does the jury have some weird set of instructions, similar to what I've heard juries being told in the past, like 'you're not here to decide anything other than <very narrow definition or set of circumstances>' Like I heard (probably in a legal podcast) some story about a jury that didn't want to have some guy punished for doing a crime they thought was basically a bullshit non-crime, but they were instructed that all they were there to do was to decide whether or not the person did the thing, and they weren't allowed to say the person did not do the thing. I know that sounds really dumb. But I'm basically asking: Do the public think the jury is, for instance, deciding whether or not the police officer was being bad, but in fact they're actually deciding <some other weird set of legal circumstances that most people have no idea about>?
|
|
#
?
Apr 20, 2021 18:46
|
|
|
Kalit posted:Brooklyn Center is not even in the same county as Minneapolis. And the looting/burning only occurred a couple of nights, not during the day, mostly in Brooklyn Center (a handful of stores got looted in Minneapolis). The rest were protests that the police decided to escalate by firing tear gas/etc. https://www.kare11.com/article/news...4b-a377dab0b87f Protests are happening at the Hennepin County Government Center..
|
|
#
?
Apr 20, 2021 18:47
|
|
|
redreader posted:I haven't been reading the thread and I came to ask a question so I apologise if this has been covered in depth already: Well there were very specific and lengthy instructions to the jury about what each charge means and what is required to satisfy it. Sometimes in murder/manslaughter cases that can be important, if the jury is in agreement about the facts of the case but are deadlocked on something like intent or blatant disregard for life.
|
|
#
?
Apr 20, 2021 18:48
|
|
|
Gunthen posted:https://www.kare11.com/article/news...4b-a377dab0b87f Are you gonna tell us where the riots are?
|
|
#
?
Apr 20, 2021 18:49
|
|
|
mdemone posted:Are you gonna tell us where the riots are? I get where your coming from. Riots was the wrong term to use. I was referring to the defense arguing that the jury was tainted by external events. And that even is there is a guilty verdict. It will likely be appealed.
|
|
#
?
Apr 20, 2021 18:50
|
|
|
america is just a different place now, i had to fight my way through fifteen nonstop back to back riots to stop by the pharmacy this morning, glad i bought the MegaCity One package on my new hoverbike
|
|
#
?
Apr 20, 2021 18:51
|
|
|
redreader posted:I haven't been reading the thread and I came to ask a question so I apologise if this has been covered in depth already: IIRC, the judge went over their instructions at before he sequestered them on Friday. Basically they just have a form that has each of the 3 things Chauvin is convicted of (with explanations of what each specifically means) with a simple "Guilty/Not Guilty" check box underneath. The jury is to come to a conclusion for each of the counts and check whether Chauvin is guilty on any of the counts individually, and the head juror marks it down. The jury could've been the ones deciding the punishment as well, however Chauvin waived that right and instead the judge will be determining the punishment depending on the verdicts the jury returns.
|
|
#
?
Apr 20, 2021 18:51
|
|
|
F_Shit_Fitzgerald posted:If right wingers hadn't latched on to Waters' comments, they would have found something else to use as an excuse for why Chauvin should not be held accountable. Since white people, even ones who think they're not racist, will readily accept negative consequences for black women, there's a reason they're hammering on this. And it's actually Maxine's fault because When people started going off I was like "holy poo poo Waters must have really said some serious poo poo, go her!" and then I read it and "oh..."
|
|
#
?
Apr 20, 2021 18:52
|
|
|
redreader posted:I haven't been reading the thread and I came to ask a question so I apologise if this has been covered in depth already: You can hear Judge Cahill read the full jury instructions here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OVq9SFwSmao&t=4024s. I think what happens is the prosecution and defense can push for some specific wording in the jury instructions and that Judge Cahill went with the prosecution's version (I think I heard that from WaPo correspondents). When I was listening to it, it sounded favorable for the prosecution. For example, one section he read was that the jury does not have to find that Chauvin showed intent on breaking the law, just intent that he used force on Mr. Floyd. Gunthen posted:https://www.kare11.com/article/news...4b-a377dab0b87f Protests are not riots Jaxyon posted:Since white people, even ones who think they're not racist, will readily accept negative consequences for black women, there's a reason they're hammering on this. Has anyone ITT said that any appeal hearing that Chauvin wins will be Waters' fault? I think she shouldn't have made that public statement, but any future appeals win definitely won't be her fault. I'll probably mostly blame the city with them making the settlement, along with its amount, public during jury selection. Kalit fucked around with this message at 18:56 on Apr 20, 2021 |
|
#
?
Apr 20, 2021 18:52
|
|
|
Kalit posted:Brooklyn Center is not even in the same county as Minneapolis. And the looting/burning only occurred a couple of nights, not during the day, mostly in Brooklyn Center (a handful of stores got looted in Minneapolis). The rest were protests that the police decided to escalate by firing tear gas/etc. Brooklyn Center is in Hennepin county. Havn't seen any rioting but drat if the entire metro is a tinderbox right now. Everyone is on edge and if Chauvin isn't convicted I fear that the city is going to burn.
|
|
#
?
Apr 20, 2021 18:54
|
|
|
Jaxyon posted:Since white people, even ones who think they're not racist, will readily accept negative consequences for black women, there's a reason they're hammering on this. Absolutely. The political cartoon thread has three or four cartoons back to back that accuse Waters of "inflaming" the situation with her rhetoric. It's clear that if Chauvin walks and there is a riot, they're going to accuse her of inciting it. They get to bothsides about Trump's incitement of January 6th and get a ready made excuse for why cops should continue to have no respect for Black lives ("Maybe they would not be so forceful if those people didn't destroy their cities!").
|
|
#
?
Apr 20, 2021 18:55
|
|
|
Kalit posted:Protests are not riots Unfortunately Police and even Government are blurring those lines for their own benefit.
|
|
#
?
Apr 20, 2021 18:55
|
|
|
karthun posted:Brooklyn Center is in Hennepin county. Havn't seen any rioting but drat if the entire metro is a tinderbox right now. Everyone is on edge and if Chauvin isn't convicted I fear that the city is going to burn. Huh, I'll be damned. For some reason I was thinking it was in Anoka county, I feel stupid. Thanks for the correction!
|
|
#
?
Apr 20, 2021 18:58
|
|
|
Overturning jury fact decisions on appeal is traditionally a very high bar to clear. What this jury decides is reasonable/unreasonable is likely going to determine the facts the appeals process will be operating under. Appeals are about law usually (stuff like 'based on these facts, the applicable sentencing range is X instead of Y'). Law things that affect how the jury decided facts that can potentially require a new trial (i.e. 'this evidence should/should not have been admitted', 'this jury instruction was wrong', ...) get evaluated as harmless error or not, where they have to have had a reasonable chance of changing the outcome of the trial. Someone on TV saying people should keep protesting if Chauvin gets off would not likely meet that standard*. Jurors have been told not to be watching media, and told that even if they did accidentally see/hear about it they should not consider it during their deliberations. Chauvin's appeal would have to convince an appeals court that it is reasonably likely that the jury ignored their instructions and that that single TV statement flipped the outcome. Appeals courts generally do not like to redo jury trials. *in a non-cop trial
|
|
#
?
Apr 20, 2021 19:00
|
|
|
Gunthen posted:There is a saying "Better that 10 guilty men go free, then one innocent man be punished." The reality of that understanding of law leads to a poo poo situation were sometimes a monster goes free. And I think there is a real possibility we are about to witness the consequences of that. So I really wouldn't parrot that old canard, it just excuses and ignores obvious injustice.
|
|
#
?
Apr 20, 2021 19:00
|
|
|
Kalit posted:As Ravenfood stated, the may in the statement is carrying a lot of weight. Which is why I stated that this just meant to bring it up in appeals. That's far, far different than claiming Judge Cahill saying it is cause for the case to get overturned, like you previously stated. Defense was arguing for a mistrial because of the statement. Judge shot that down, but he's not the person appeals will be going through. He can't and shouldn't be preemptively ruling on that. There's a reading of the judge's comments that's pretty sarcastic, in a "go ask your dad if he'll let you skip school tomorrow if the moon explodes" sort of way. It's the defense's job to open avenues for appeals, so in a weird way if they didn't ask there might be an argument that they weren't doing their job properly? Law can be fukkin weird, and almost always involves context that both Maxine's comments and the judge's response aren't being given.
|
|
#
?
Apr 20, 2021 19:04
|
|
|
Yeah I read it the same way. Judge was telling Nelson that he "may" bring that up on appeal, as in "you will have the opportunity to", same as he'd be allowed to bring up any other possible avenues.
|
|
#
?
Apr 20, 2021 19:05
|
|
|
Jaxyon posted:Since white people, even ones who think they're not racist, will readily accept negative consequences for black women I didn't think her comments came at a great time but haven't really formed an opinion beyond that. I guess I'm racist now, though.
|
|
#
?
Apr 20, 2021 19:33
|
|
|
kolby posted:I didn't think her comments came at a great time but haven't really formed an opinion beyond that. I guess I'm racist now, though. When was a "good time" for her to express her feelings about oppression and death she lives with every single day? quote:I guess I'm racist now, though. look at this poo poo
|
|
#
?
Apr 20, 2021 20:07
|
|
|
Jaxyon posted:When was a "good time" for her to express her feelings about oppression and death she lives with every single day? If it was just her expressing "her feelings about oppression and death she lives with every single day" then it wouldn't have come up. Instead she said publicly that if Chauvin wasn't given a guilty verdict then people need to march on the streets and not back down. Again, WHAT she said isn't the problem. However, saying specifically this the literal day before a jury for the Chauvin trial (who she called out specifically, mind you) was to begin deliberation could be used (and is!) in the appeals case that there was coercion for the jury to reach a guilty verdict. If she said this after the jury began deliberation (when the jury is sequestered, so they can't see that she made this statement) no one would be having this discussion. It unnecessarily gives ammo to the defense to appeal a potential guilty verdict. Yes, the defense was going to appeal anyway, but giving them more grievances to add to the appeal doesn't help and could actually undo justice.
|
|
#
?
Apr 20, 2021 20:18
|
|
|
Velocity Raptor posted:If she said this after the jury began deliberation (when the jury is sequestered, so they can't see that she made this statement) no one would be having this discussion. HAH quote:It unnecessarily gives ammo to the defense to appeal a potential guilty verdict. Yes, the defense was going to appeal anyway, but giving them more grievances to add to the appeal doesn't help and could actually undo justice. She said basically nothing wrong. It's racism, OP.
|
|
#
?
Apr 20, 2021 20:19
|
|
|
Nothing Maxine said wasn't be said by everyone else marching in protest. So, its entirely about racist framing around protests being used to fuel legal justification for appeals/mistrial.
|
|
#
?
Apr 20, 2021 20:24
|
|
|
Jaxyon posted:HAH I never said that what she said was wrong. In fact, I literally said the opposite. Velocity Raptor posted:If it was just her expressing "her feelings about oppression and death she lives with every single day" then it wouldn't have come up. Instead she said publicly that if Chauvin wasn't given a guilty verdict then people need to march on the streets and not back down. Like, I get you're upset that cops disproportionately target BIPOC. I am too, that's why it's frustrating that this now is a factor in the appeals filing.
|
|
#
?
Apr 20, 2021 20:26
|
|
|
Is there any correlation with waiting longer and longer times for the jury verdict and an increased probability of a hung jury? It feels like one of those things that kind of "seems" like it should be the case, but it could be just as likely or even more than likely that the minority on the jury caves. Just the idea that this dude could get out of murdering a helpless person in cold blood on tape is sending my anxiety through the ceiling
|
|
#
?
Apr 20, 2021 20:27
|
|
|
Verdict incoming in the next hour and a half https://twitter.com/michaelhayes/status/1384589957524860929
|
|
#
?
Apr 20, 2021 20:30
|
|
|
Are people actually buying into Fox News/Breitbart poo poo pushed out about Maxine Waters comments? They were like, a nothing burger of comments that hasn't been said by 1,000 other protestors and politicians. She is just their scary black lady they boogaboo about lately.
|
|
#
?
Apr 20, 2021 20:31
|
|
|
|
| # ? May 28, 2024 01:16 |
|
|
Piell posted:Verdict incoming in the next hour and a half Just another source that will probably update https://twitter.com/kylegriffin1/status/1384590349994106881?s=20
|
|
#
?
Apr 20, 2021 20:33
|
|
