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McGavin posted:https://twitter.com/Independent/status/1384455840992665604?s=20 Serious question: So apps like this exist. And they exist so people can snitch on people harbouring "disharmonious and/or counterrevoluntionary thoughts" to the government and thus have those filthy CIA spies taken away. Fair enough But how often would they be used? What sort of non party member person would use this app to snitch on their neighbour? Are there incentives to snitch? Because in my, (albeit limited), experience living in China, everyone kept their opinions, disharmonious or no, to themselves. And even if you discovered someone elses thoughts, you did your level best to not cause a fuss about them, let alone dob them in to the authorities.
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Apr 21, 2021 05:17
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Because there's a chilling effect when it comes to discussing "disharmonious" subjects when you never know if there's some hypernationalist weirdo in earshot who will try to get you arrested and you won't be able to do anything about it.
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Apr 21, 2021 05:36
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BrigadierSensible posted:Serious question: It doesn’t seem that hard to imagine how this could be used with social credit score systems to reward accurate reports or punish offenders. Although it does seem like it would be pretty ripe for abuse/retaliation. Don’t like the foreigner who moved into the building? Neighbor hammer drilling the wall at 7am? There’s an app for that!
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Apr 21, 2021 05:41
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Rime posted:Nah, this is a pretty critical aspect of the transition from neolib Dengism to integrated society Xi-ism. It's an enlightened tactic. China, being such a cultural melting pot, suffers from strife and this is a much better alternative to police shootings and social media manipulation of society. I would have gone with "cultural hot pot" myself.
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Apr 21, 2021 05:49
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McGavin posted:https://twitter.com/Independent/status/1384455840992665604?s=20 I'm pretty sure that's what C-SPAM is.
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Apr 21, 2021 06:21
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Atlas Hugged posted:I would have gone with "cultural hot pot" myself.
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Apr 21, 2021 06:30
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I'm taking that as a "cooked barbarians" reference and you can't stop me. E: re: cultural melting pot.
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Apr 21, 2021 06:59
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BrigadierSensible posted:What sort of non party member person would use this app to snitch on their neighbour? Are there incentives to snitch? So i got some bad news for you bud 
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Apr 21, 2021 07:14
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BrigadierSensible posted:Serious question: People report posts on these here forums simply because they dislike what the other person is saying. Society works the same way.
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Apr 21, 2021 07:16
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BrigadierSensible posted:Serious question: It doesn't really matter if real dissenters get reported. As long as the app leads to people getting disappeared or arbitrarily punished on the reg, everyone will live in fear and do as they are told.
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Apr 21, 2021 07:58
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isn’t this very thing the exact reason that sincx had his anime titty meltdown?
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Apr 21, 2021 08:00
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Is it the kind of thing that foreign actors could have fun with? Say turning a new build into the Ballard book highrise. Also: Fabulous Prizes to be won!!
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Apr 21, 2021 09:34
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See - how East Germans treated the Stasi amd reported neighbours for petty complains or to get people they disliked im trouble.
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Apr 22, 2021 10:48
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One of the great 'innovations' of authoritarian governance in the 20th century, I guess especially outwardly left-authoritarian governance especially given how public ideological participation is important, is that you don't need a comprehensive and sophisticated internal intelligence network or secret police force. Correctly implemented, citizens will extremely readily do all the reporting for you if there's something in it for them. For all that communism is about equality between peoples, it doesn't take much tempting at all to get people to spy on one another for any kind perks or privileges. North Korea really took the Chinese/Soviet model for this and perfected it in the Inminban system because they didn't have the resources to monitor their own people particularly effectively. To be trite, it's like the weaponised version of those memes about surveillance in the UK/US vs Eastern Europe with cameras vs old women staring from windows and porches. Everyone is part of an Inminban, and they are run especially by women not in full-time work. An Inminban is fairly small, usually comprised of a small apartment block of a few dozen families, and they do stuff like street cleaning and garbage collection etc. But they also inspect apartments and report on each other's behaviour, and the head gets extra wages/food rations for doing so. (Although this system mostly died out with the collapse of the food distribution system.) The app is just a more modern digital version, and no doubt it can be cutely gamified by tying it to social credit scores and the like. As Strategic Tea says, it doesn't matter so much how effective it is at identifying real dissent if the threat of it instils fear and has a cooling effect on people discussing "mistaken opinions" in public, which stops like-minded people from being able to connect, organise and resist. I'm reminded of a faintly distasteful video I saw once where someone is going around asking a bunch of university students (in China) on the anniversary of Tienanmen if they knew what today was an anniversary was, and the various reactions they had when asked. Most just didn't want to be filmed, some were completely clueless, others you could see realise halfway what they were being asked and the blood just drains from their face and they beat a hasty retreat. And then a couple of people are like "uh, Tienanmen...right?" Can't say it wasn't kind of interesting and chilling, but also it seems kind of unethical and dangerous to put random students on the spot like that.
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Apr 22, 2021 11:37
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Nothingtoseehere posted:See - how East Germans treated the Stasi amd reported neighbours for petty complains or to get people they disliked im trouble. It needs the clause that the Medieval Inquistiion provided. When you went to trial, you could name people who "bore deathly hatred" towards you and if those overlapped with any who were accusing you, their accusations were disregarded. One Frenchman accused of heresy named something like 200 people who hated him to death and brought in character witnesses who could confirm "yeah, everyone hates him". Case dismissed. Jeza posted:One of the great 'innovations' of authoritarian governance in the 20th century, I guess especially outwardly left-authoritarian governance especially given how public ideological participation is important, is that you don't need a comprehensive and sophisticated internal intelligence network or secret police force. Correctly implemented, citizens will extremely readily do all the reporting for you if there's something in it for them. The Gestapo was pretty similar, the organization was small and not particularly well-funded, they worked pretty much entirely off civilian accusations in driving their persecution and arrests. Randarkman fucked around with this message at 13:17 on Apr 22, 2021 |
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Apr 22, 2021 11:52
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Nothingtoseehere posted:See - how East Germans treated the Stasi amd reported neighbours for petty complains or to get people they disliked im trouble. I recently listened to the audiobook version of Martyn Whittock's "A Brief History of the Third Reich" and they touch on this subject many, many times. Like there was a somewhat popular but very underground joke going during Hitler's reign. Hitler and Goebbels are standing on a hill overlooking Berlin. "I wish I could do something to make the people happier", Hitler says. "Why don't you just jump?", Goebbels responds. A factory worker told this joke to a colleague at work, and was soon arrested and condemned to death. She wasn't caught because a Gestapo informant or spy got onto her. She was caught because some random coworker tattled on her. And then it keeps happening and keeps happening and keeps happening. Some little old grandma says something anti-Hitler at a store? Some loving busybody beats the 100 meter world record running to a phone so they can call the cops on her. There is absolutely zero doubt in my mind that people in China would use this app to rat out their friends, neighbours, colleagues, random people on the subway, anyone they can. Maybe because they're True Believers who genuinely think anyone who says a bad thing about Dear Leader deserves to go into the camps, maybe because they're jealous of the other person's shoes, or maybe just because they're a petty little shithead.
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Apr 22, 2021 12:17
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Randarkman posted:The Gestapo was pretty similar, the organization was small and not particularly well-founded, they worked pretty much entirely off civilian accusations in driving their persecution and arrests. Same kept up post war with Soviet Poland's secret police
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Apr 22, 2021 13:12
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like if american karens could put peeps to death
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Apr 22, 2021 15:01
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Randarkman posted:It needs the clause that the Medieval Inquistiion provided. When you went to trial, you could name people who "bore deathly hatred" towards you and if those overlapped with any who were accusing you, their accusations were disregarded. One Frenchman accused of heresy named something like 200 people who hated him to death and brought in character witnesses who could confirm "yeah, everyone hates him". Case dismissed. The mediveal inquisition- more fair and just than most 21st century justice systems.
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Apr 22, 2021 15:34
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I mean, the punishments were a hell of a lot worse. Capital punishment is bad, but even a botched lethal injection is pretty incomparable to getting tied down and flayed alive, then quartered, then having your still living body thrown into fire. Even the worst cartel executions barely scratch the surface of what cruel and unusual fates awaited a man sentenced to death in that time period. Medieval Europe was a warlord-ruled shithole that puts the worst spots of modern Africa to shame.
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Apr 22, 2021 16:36
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Nothingtoseehere posted:The mediveal inquisition- more fair and just than most 21st century justice systems. lol, just lol. Do you honestly believe this?
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Apr 22, 2021 17:51
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BrainDance posted:For sure, there was the cspam 'whats really going on in Xinjiang?' mod thread recently which really seems like going to /pol and saying 'ok guys what's the real deal with FBI crime statistics?' and expecting an honest discussion. Cspam's mission appears to be to self-radicalise into some new flavour of 3rd wayism because every other leftist is actually a liberal. I'm just waiting for one of them to crack and start wondering if maybe there is a 'gay agenda' after all and if the agenda is liberalism.
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Apr 22, 2021 18:06
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bob dobbs is dead posted:like if american karens could put peeps to death Such as by calling 911 when they see a Black person looking at birds or whatever
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Apr 22, 2021 19:07
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Dont Touch ME posted:I mean, the punishments were a hell of a lot worse. Capital punishment is bad, but even a botched lethal injection is pretty incomparable to getting tied down and flayed alive, then quartered, then having your still living body thrown into fire. Even the worst cartel executions barely scratch the surface of what cruel and unusual fates awaited a man sentenced to death in that time period. Oh shut up. The Middle Ages being uniquely terrible in history and Europe being uniquely terrible in the Middle Ages is a myth that should long ago have been consigned to the loving dustbin. You've got more or less the standard amount pre-modern weirdness and awfulness. I guess you're half-joking but I'm sick of this.
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Apr 22, 2021 19:26
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Randarkman posted:Oh shut up. The Middle Ages being uniquely terrible in history and Europe being uniquely terrible in the Middle Ages is a myth that should long ago have been consigned to the loving dustbin. You've got more or less the standard amount pre-modern weirdness and awfulness. I guess you're half-joking but I'm sick of this. Post a thread about it friend, and pm me the link. Let's chat it out.
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Apr 22, 2021 19:37
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Tarkus posted:lol, just lol. Do you honestly believe this? The Inquisitions, both the Medieval and to a different extent the Spanish (whose circumstances, mission and extent were different in many ways), have been demonized and blown up in our pop cultural understanding into something that bears very little resemblance to what it actually was. On the other hand it can be simple when you read about and discover how the reality was so much different from the myth to dabble in white-washing instead. Still, it is a fascinating subject and some practices of the inquisitions (there were several divided from each other by time, region and circumstance, and not all practices were common to all) actually seem progressive compared to most other courts of law you might find yourself up against at the time. For instance you have the notion that confessions under torture were not very reliable and could only be used in court if confirmed without torture, trying to have safeguards against accusations driven by personal animosity, providing advocates for the accused, the idea that someone who was just being ignorant about Church teachings could not be guilty of heresy and that the goal of it all was rehabiliation (through recantation and re-embracing orthodoxy) and that having to hand a heretic over to secular authorities for punishment was a failure on the part of the inquisitor. Still you have to consider that you are essentially dealing wiht thought policing here and enforcing orthodox doctrine and all of this is in service of that. The inquisition is a strange beast and a product of its time and of concerns that seem strange to us, but made perfect sense in its context, the idea and fear of heresy being a danger to people's salvation, which was viewed as very much a real concern. Dont Touch ME posted:Post a thread about it friend, and pm me the link. Let's chat it out. There's history threads in the Ask/Tell forums.
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Apr 22, 2021 19:55
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They're demonized the same way World War 2 is demonized. Can you believe that a "modern" and "civilized" man could act this way?! Those other cultures that do/did it just aren't modern or civilized, like we are 
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Apr 22, 2021 21:24
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Yeah this is communism 101 stuff, the rat out people app. The soviets and the places their empire conquered proved how well it works.
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Apr 22, 2021 21:45
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hakimashou posted:Yeah this is communism 101 stuff, the rat out people app. It's more authoritarianism 101. As mentioned this sort of thing was popular in nazi Germany and also fascist Italy and francoist Spain. I couldn't find anything on Vietnam which I just picked as a communist country at random, but if anyone knows if there has been a history of effectively getting people to rat out their neighbors there I'd be very interested.
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Apr 23, 2021 01:26
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At its peak something like 20% of Taiwan was getting paid by the government in some form for tips. edit: maybe it was 10% paid in cash and 10% in other ways? It has been several years since I read about it.
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Apr 23, 2021 03:52
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Randarkman posted:The Inquisitions, both the Medieval and to a different extent the Spanish (whose circumstances, mission and extent were different in many ways), have been demonized and blown up in our pop cultural understanding into something that bears very little resemblance to what it actually was. On the other hand it can be simple when you read about and discover how the reality was so much different from the myth to dabble in white-washing instead.
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Apr 23, 2021 07:49
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IIRC, the Inquisition(s) was partly set up as a response to said witch trials and frenzied mobs, actually following rules and presenting an organised, officially backed moral authority rather than whatever people had gotten a bee in their bonnet about. Although also to wipe out/forcibly convert any remaining Jews and Muslims.
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Apr 23, 2021 08:17
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Ghost Leviathan posted:IIRC, the Inquisition(s) was partly set up as a response to said witch trials and frenzied mobs, actually following rules and presenting an organised, officially backed moral authority rather than whatever people had gotten a bee in their bonnet about. Although also to wipe out/forcibly convert any remaining Jews and Muslims. The Medieval Inqusition long predates the witch hysteria, which while they did also happen in the Middle Ages were really more of a hysterical thing towards the very end of the Late Middle Ages and in the Renaissance and Early Modern period. You still had Inquisitions around then though, but again practices could vary alot according to region and time period (and apart from the Spanish and Portuguese inqusitions there weren't really many other powerful post-medieval inquisitorial organizations) The second thing you bring up is also a later thing which the original inquisition long predated. Also, that was the Spanish Inquisition which was a bit of a different organization, controlled by the Spanish crown and with much broader authority than the Medieval incarnations. The difference is sort of academic, but it can bear mentioning that the Spanish Jews and Muslims had been forcibly converted and baptized and then they were subjected to repressive measures by the Spanish Inquisition because of rumors/fears of apostasy and people still secretly confessing their old religions. In theory, though I don't know for sure about practice, the Inquisition had no authority over you if you were unbaptized, and IIRC there are records of people having heresy accusations against them thrown out because they proved they had never been baptized. Randarkman fucked around with this message at 09:19 on Apr 23, 2021 |
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Apr 23, 2021 08:50
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Yeah, the Kingdom Come game did a heresy trial pretty well. Can't find a good clip set though.
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Apr 23, 2021 09:03
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Mr. Sunshine posted:there are documented instances of (for example) people unprompted approaching inquisitors, confessing to being witches or possessed by demons, and being told "No you're not, gently caress off." Eagerly waiting for netflix to make a witch hunter police procedural now.
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Apr 23, 2021 09:40
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I'd be so down for an accurate and detailed (embrace the mundanity, reject spectacle) Inquisition procedural.
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Apr 23, 2021 09:42
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*while waiting for the perp, a drunk passerby appears* ayyyyy PC I'm a demon you gotta take me in man I'm dangerous maaaan
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Apr 23, 2021 09:44
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Randarkman posted:The second thing you bring up is also a later thing which the original inquisition long predated. Are you saying that during the first part of the Reconquista Judaism and Islam were tolerated? Wiki told me the inquisition was founded in the 12th century and a lot of Spain was ruled by Christians then. This is of course different to that being why it was founded.
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Apr 23, 2021 09:45
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Weka posted:Are you saying that during the first part of the Reconquista Judaism and Islam were tolerated? Wiki told me the inquisition was founded in the 12th century and a lot of Spain was ruled by Christians then. This is of course different to that being why it was founded. No, I'm saying that the Inquisition didn't have any authority over non-Christians and didn't really have anything to do with converting non-Christians, either through missionary work or forced baptism. The Inquisition was formed and existed to combat real and perceived deviations from religious orthodoxy among Christians. Non-Christians were none of their concern, that is not to say that non-Christians were necessarily treated well, it's just that whether or not they were didn't really have anything to do with the Inquisition (unless you count the Spanish Inquisition whose main task, especially after 1492, became the repression and elimination of perceived practice of Judaism and Islam in secret among those forced to convert) in a direct sense. I guess I could also mention that Jews and Muslims (the latter you'll mostly only see in Sicily and Spain at the time) often were afforded a protected , second-class citizen status when they came under the rule European Christian rulers, somewhat similar to, but less uniformly established compared to what you saw with Dhimmi (a category that was often defined and expanded according to local conditions) in Islamic states. Such arrangements typically came in the form of some legal protections and exemptions, but also restrictions on career and settlement and as later events showed offered little protection if the local authorities decided to just overturn them, such as Spain did after conquering Granada. Randarkman fucked around with this message at 10:23 on Apr 23, 2021 |
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Apr 23, 2021 10:16
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Basically - the Spainish Inquisition and the europe-wide Catholic run Inquisition were different organisations run by different people at different times, which just happen to share a name.
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Apr 23, 2021 10:29
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