[Epstein] Hello madda / Hello fadda / Gotta syndrome / Called Havana!

The Something Awful Forums > Discussion > C-SPAM > [Epstein] Hello madda / Hello fadda / Gotta syndrome / Called Havana!

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nishi koichi: Feb 16, 2007; everyone feels that way and gives up.
that's how they get away with it.

i started programmed to kill last night and had an awful sleepless night. thank you, thread, and i mean that seriously

# ? Apr 20, 2021 17:05

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# ? May 26, 2024 15:02

hseroK divaD: Jun 3, 2011; Creepy Richard will keep leering at you NON-STOP!

mdemone posted:

Anyway: the rest is (mostly) known. McVeigh signs on to the prosecutor's theory of the crime ("lone wolf" blah blah)* and will not allow the aforementioned to be entered into his own defense.

He is executed on June 11 2001 after only five years on federal Death Row, and having filed for the expedition of his own execution.

Fin.

*but Nichols had turned himself in on April 21, the same day McVeigh was arraigned...?

What about the Mistery Foot�?

What's the hypothesis behind it?

# ? Apr 20, 2021 17:12

nut: Jul 30, 2019

I think we�ve warned it before but that first start of P2K is brutal but it gets much lighter and consequently more insane afterwards

# ? Apr 20, 2021 17:14

Low Desert Punk: Jul 4, 2012; i have absolutely no fucking money

mdemone posted:

It is not known who contacted the Perry jail, or how it was determined that they already had John Doe #1 in custody.

Around 48 hours after the explosion, a black helicopter transferred Timothy McVeigh to Tinker AFB in Oklahoma City. He sits in a cell with thick glass walls until his public defenders come to see him in the evening, Susan Otto and John Coyle.

He spends thirty minutes confessing in full, and the following day both Otto and Coyle ask the judge to remove them from the case.

(A couple of weeks later, when Stephen Jones becomes counsel for McVeigh's defense, upon the meeting of the lawyers, Otto will say "when you know everything I know, and you will soon enough, you will never think of the United States in the same way.")

On May 5 1995, Jones and McVeigh meet for the first time. Upon sitting down to the table, the first thing McVeigh says is "I'm not brainwashed."

Riot Bimbo posted:

*nods insanely*

# ? Apr 20, 2021 17:39

mdemone: Mar 14, 2001

hseroK divaD posted:

What about the Mistery Foot�?

What's the hypothesis behind it?

According to David Paul Hammer's book, written after McVeigh supposedly told him the real story while they were both on Death Row....that leg probably belongs to a man referred to as Poindexter, who helped make the actual big bomb in the real Ryder truck along with convicted ARA bomber Richard Guthrie.

Presumably he was killed and thrown in the back after he finished his work.

# ? Apr 20, 2021 17:43

gradenko_2000: Oct 5, 2010; HELL SERPENT; Lipstick Apathy

https://twitter.com/shmoodough/status/1384364768157446149

before:

and after:

# ? Apr 20, 2021 17:46

mdemone: Mar 14, 2001

I am not aware of anything in the Jones Collection about Mr. Yeakey but maybe I'll reach out to Dr. Painting about it.

edit: here is more detail including death cert and diagram

http://www.riflewarrior.com/who_killed_terry_yeakey.html

mdemone has issued a correction as of 17:54 on Apr 20, 2021

# ? Apr 20, 2021 17:51

Mameluke: Aug 2, 2013; by Fluffdaddy

StratGoatCom posted:

Don't leave us hanging?

I'd say Gates, Sr.'s Wikipedia photo is self-explanatory;

His life seems just like a typical boring white lawyer obsessed with curating and projecting American power postwar?

# ? Apr 20, 2021 18:01

Low Desert Punk: Jul 4, 2012; i have absolutely no fucking money

what could be "extremely disturbing" at the bomb site that Yeakey saw but the other first responders and witnesses didn't?

# ? Apr 20, 2021 18:07

bedpan: Apr 23, 2008

Low Desert Punk posted:

what could be "extremely disturbing" at the bomb site that Yeakey saw but the other first responders and witnesses didn't?

the facts bush hid

# ? Apr 20, 2021 18:10

mdemone: Mar 14, 2001

Low Desert Punk posted:

what could be "extremely disturbing" at the bomb site that Yeakey saw but the other first responders and witnesses didn't?

there were rumors that explosives and ordnance were being stored in the building.

Mike Loudenslager made a fuss about it so they killed him and put him at his desk and called him a bombing victim, even though he was in court at 9:02am.

# ? Apr 20, 2021 18:11

Real hurthling!: Sep 11, 2001

mdemone posted:

there were rumors that explosives and ordnance were being stored in the building.

Mike Loudenslager made a fuss about it so they killed him and put him at his desk and called him a bombing victim, even though he was in court at 9:02am.

lol

# ? Apr 20, 2021 18:15

pentyne: Nov 7, 2012

gradenko_2000 posted:

https://twitter.com/shmoodough/status/1384364768157446149

before:

and after:

I like how even the "official" narrative is completely bonkers by any standard and pretty much relies on no one asking any questions about a dead black man in rural OK.

# ? Apr 20, 2021 18:25

Wraith of J.O.I.: Jan 25, 2012

pentyne posted:

I like how even the "official" narrative is completely bonkers by any standard and pretty much relies on no one asking any questions about a dead black man in rural OK.

so he slit his wrists, arms, and elbows, then stabbed himself in the neck twice, after which he hiked a mile and a half, climbed a fence, then shot himself??

# ? Apr 20, 2021 18:28

mdemone: Mar 14, 2001

Wraith of J.O.I. posted:

so he slit his wrists, arms, and elbows, then stabbed himself in the neck twice, after which he hiked a mile and a half, climbed a fence, then shot himself??

also there was muddy grass in the forearm wounds.

and the entry wound was 45 degrees downward into the right temple.

# ? Apr 20, 2021 18:29

Fiend: Dec 2, 2001

mdemone posted:

also there was muddy grass in the forearm wounds.

and the entry wound was 45 degrees downward into the right temple.

God drat swamp gas got him

# ? Apr 20, 2021 18:32

inferis: Dec 30, 2003

sometimes people kill themselves in weird ways, adam lanza shot himself in the back of the head

# ? Apr 20, 2021 18:37

Riot Bimbo: Dec 28, 2006

It's so sloppy. This feels like something we only sort of have evidence for something fucky because of the internet. Pre-internet all these weird deaths and loose threads would've been memory holed by official outlets and the far more limited, restricted nature of information pre-internet.

Honestly think the fake news thing is a way to obfuscate reality specifically for this sort of poo poo. One can't like, take the internet away, without seeming like an out of character tyrant. Can't do poo poo like that without a heel turn, but herd people into a handful of outlets, control the ways they can interact, manually disperse unwanted groupings of people, like we don't talk about it anymore but we know the earliest known examples are the russian troll farms, were all about controlling discourse relevant to Russian interests.

This is the worst.

# ? Apr 20, 2021 18:44

Torpor: Oct 20, 2008; .. and now for my next trick, I'll pretend to be a political commentator...

HONK HONK

Riot Bimbo posted:

It's so sloppy. This feels like something we only sort of have evidence for something fucky because of the internet. Pre-internet all these weird deaths and loose threads would've been memory holed by official outlets and the far more limited, restricted nature of information pre-internet.

Honestly think the fake news thing is a way to obfuscate reality specifically for this sort of poo poo. One can't like, take the internet away, without seeming like an out of character tyrant. Can't do poo poo like that without a heel turn, but herd people into a handful of outlets, control the ways they can interact, manually disperse unwanted groupings of people, like we don't talk about it anymore but we know the earliest known examples are the russian troll farms, were all about controlling discourse relevant to Russian interests.

This is the worst.

put mystery leg�s dna into a family tree site. all we need to do is get ahold of mystery leg�s dna no problem.

# ? Apr 20, 2021 18:59

Riot Bimbo: Dec 28, 2006

Idk about all of that, I just reckon the state of information reliability on the internet is a deliberate thing used to make these sorts of weird loose ends get lost in the static a few groups of people are deliberately broadcasting

# ? Apr 20, 2021 19:01

mdemone: Mar 14, 2001

Torpor posted:

put mystery leg�s dna into a family tree site. all we need to do is get ahold of mystery leg�s dna no problem.

I do wonder who stashed that away. Also I'm curious how much revelatory info would actually be found in the "zero files" or if a lot of the truly heinous stuff has just been deleted forever.

# ? Apr 20, 2021 19:03

Wraith of J.O.I.: Jan 25, 2012

mdemone posted:

also there was muddy grass in the forearm wounds.

and the entry wound was 45 degrees downward into the right temple.

how do you know about the angle if there was no autopsy?

# ? Apr 20, 2021 19:03

scary ghost dog: Aug 5, 2007

Wraith of J.O.I. posted:

how do you know about the angle if there was no autopsy?

hes the culprit

# ? Apr 20, 2021 19:05

mdemone: Mar 14, 2001

Wraith of J.O.I. posted:

how do you know about the angle if there was no autopsy?

the death-cert diagram on that page I linked shows the apparent angle, but you're right.

# ? Apr 20, 2021 19:09

KaptainKrunk: Feb 6, 2006

you will absolutely be deceived if you take a naively empirical, positivist take on these sorts of things

# ? Apr 20, 2021 19:15

pentyne: Nov 7, 2012

Riot Bimbo posted:

It's so sloppy. This feels like something we only sort of have evidence for something fucky because of the internet. Pre-internet all these weird deaths and loose threads would've been memory holed by official outlets and the far more limited, restricted nature of information pre-internet.

Honestly think the fake news thing is a way to obfuscate reality specifically for this sort of poo poo. One can't like, take the internet away, without seeming like an out of character tyrant. Can't do poo poo like that without a heel turn, but herd people into a handful of outlets, control the ways they can interact, manually disperse unwanted groupings of people, like we don't talk about it anymore but we know the earliest known examples are the russian troll farms, were all about controlling discourse relevant to Russian interests.

This is the worst.

I mean, the simplest outcome was he got recognized by some y'all queda types(highly likely friends of local PD) who thought he was in on it, and they kidnapped and dragged him out to the swamp to torture him for the names of his accomplices. Things went "bad" and they got their drinking buddies on the force to frame it up as a suicide and rush the whole investigation to a close..

You don't need to believe a single thing about the government black ops, mind control, or anything like that to immediately find it plausible a black man was wrongly linked to a terrorist attack and some local vigilantes(i.e KKK) grabbed him, tortured him, killed him, and local PD just closed it as a suicide.

# ? Apr 20, 2021 19:47

Trabisnikof: Dec 24, 2005

don't forget about Kenneth Michael Trentadue who was probably tortured to death over OKC https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kenneth_Michael_Trentadue

quote:

Kenneth was apprehended on June 10, 1995, nearly two months after the Oklahoma City bombing, while crossing the border from Mexico into California. Police officers ran his driver's license and discovered that he was wanted for violating his parole.[1][2] On August 18, Trentadue was transferred to the Department of Justice's Federal Transfer Center in Oklahoma City. Trentadue called his brother, Jesse, from FTC Oklahoma on August 19. Jesse described Kenneth as sounding "chipper" in the call.

District Judge Timothy D. Leonard would later write that during a check of Kenneth's cell at 2:38 a.m. on August 21, 1995, all was normal with no sign of blood or a suicide attempt; thus Trentadue's injuries and hanging occurred "in quite a short period of time" of 24 minutes or less[6] According to prison records, at 3:02 a.m., the morning of August 21, 1995, Kenneth was found in his cell suspended from a noose made out of his bed sheets.[4]

Oklahoma County District Attorney Bob Macy and federal officials determined that Trentadue had committed suicide by hanging himself. Investigative journalist James Ridgeway wrote that authorities "would later put forth an elaborate scenario in which Kenney tried to hang himself but fell, bruising his head and body, and then tried to slit his throat with a toothpaste tube before succeeding in his second hanging attempt."[2] Officials tried to obtain the permission of Trentadue's family to cremate the body at the government's expense, an unprecedented move, but the family declined, since they found the claims of suicide suspicious. The government then performed an autopsy on Trentadue, but did not notify the family.[7]

When the family received the body from the prison authorities, it was covered in wounds, cuts, and bruises, leading the family to believe Trentadue had been tortured and beaten before his death. Trentadue had sustained three heavy blows to the head, and his throat had been cut; prison authorities claimed the wounds were self-inflicted.[4] The day after Trentadue's death, Kevin Rowland, the chief investigator of the Oklahoma state medical examiner filed a complaint with the FBI reporting irregularities in the investigation of Trentadue's death: the coroner was at first not permitted into the cell where Trentadue had died, and the cell itself was washed out by the afternoon of August 21, 1995, before the legally-required investigation could be performed.[7][2] The complaint went on to state that, although the exact cause of death could not be determined, the claim that Trentadue had committed suicide was not consistent with the medical examiner's findings, and Trentadue appeared to have been tortured.[8] The FBI paperwork from the agent who received the medical examiner's call reads "murder" and "believes that foul play is suspect[ed] in this matter."[2]
...
This assessment changed in 2003, after contact from JD Cash, an Oklahoma City reporter who was skeptical of the mainstream narrative of the Oklahoma bombing.[2] Cash suspected that Kenneth Trentadue was mistaken for Richard Lee Guthrie a member of the Aryan Republican Army (ARA), a white supremacist group that robbed over 20 banks across the US Midwest during the early 1990s. Members of the ARA were thought to have associated with McVeigh, and were the subject of FBI investigation. Trentadue and Guthrie shared a strong physical resemblance � they were the same height, weight, and muscular build, both had dark hair and thick mustaches, and both had dragon tattoos on their left arm.[4] Both are thought to have resembled the description of "John Doe 2", the never-apprehended possible third conspirator in the bombing along with McVeigh and Terry Nichols.
...
In 1999, Alden Gillis Baker, an inmate who had been imprisoned in Oklahoma City's Federal Transfer Center at the same time as Trentadue, stated he would testify that he had witnessed Trentadue's murder. According to FBI documentation, Baker was sharing a cell with Trentadue on the night of his death. However, the authenticity this documentation has been vigorously disputed by the Department of Justice, and a judge once ruled that Baker was not a credible witness.[2] In December 1999, Baker reported to a lawyer that he feared for his life. In August 2000, he was found dead in his cell. His death was ruled a suicide by the coroner's office. Trentadue family attorneys argued that Baker's hanging was "... pretty incredible because he's the only witness who really came forward and said he saw the guards go in there and murder Kenneth."[10]

Also Guthrie, the guy they supposedly thought Trentadue was also ended up dying of a "suicide" in his jail cell a week after promising to testify about the ARA:

quote:

An admitted member of a right-wing extremist group of bank robbers was found dead of an apparent suicide Friday morning in a county jail in Kentucky, jolting a growing federal investigation into white supremacist violence.

The death of 38-year-old Richard Lee Guthrie Jr. came little more than a week after his pledge--according to a sealed plea agreement in U.S. District Court--to provide authorities with information about organizations �whose goal is the overthrow of the U.S. government or engage in domestic terrorism.�
...
In his last known interview, a 10-minute phone call on Thursday responding to a letter from The Times, Guthrie said he was planning to write a book that goes �a lot more deeper� than the robberies, about his life and the white supremacist movement. �It�ll all come out,� he said.

looks like he decided to kill himself instead of writing his tell all book that would have uncovered things. nothing to look into here.

Trabisnikof has issued a correction as of 20:33 on Apr 20, 2021

# ? Apr 20, 2021 20:30

mdemone: Mar 14, 2001

Also, I believe Trentadue's brother began the investigation and publications that would expose PATCON and Calspan in Buffalo. This was maybe '06, I think.

# ? Apr 20, 2021 20:44

Happy Thread: Jul 10, 2005; by Fluffdaddy; Plaster Town Cop

It takes an especially gullible and accepting public to believe reports that so many people in general could be experts at committing suicide, successfully with a low survival rate, in an environment specifically designed to make it way more difficult. It's super convenient for the entire organized crime world to have media and public attitude work that way.

# ? Apr 20, 2021 20:53

mdemone: Mar 14, 2001

oh right I forgot: around 2001, McVeigh called Jesse Trentadue from Death Row to tell him the FBI hosed up and mistook his brother for Guthrie.

# ? Apr 20, 2021 21:02

mdemone: Mar 14, 2001

I'm looking into whether anything has ever come of the Judge Waddoups and Special Master Pead situation in 2016 at the time of Painting's publication.

I don't really expect to find anything, lol

# ? Apr 20, 2021 21:04

nut: Jul 30, 2019

have to keep skimming because I still have a chunk of the mcveigh book left lmao

# ? Apr 20, 2021 21:16

scary ghost dog: Aug 5, 2007

judge whaddup and special master pee

# ? Apr 20, 2021 21:18

Riot Bimbo: Dec 28, 2006

Happy Thread posted:

It takes an especially gullible and accepting public to believe reports that so many people in general could be experts at committing suicide, successfully with a low survival rate, in an environment specifically designed to make it way more difficult. It's super convenient for the entire organized crime world to have media and public attitude work that way.

You have to overcome the tendency towards rejecting the bleak reality that this country has within it; a baked-in evil streak that's never going away so long as the current power structures are extant. It really is something that most people will reject out of hand, because it so thoroughly violates the presented, educated, accepted worldview.

# ? Apr 20, 2021 21:26

Zodium: Jun 19, 2004

well this got long and tbh i am just musing, but i think this is an interesting idea and i hope it's within the thread's scope.

Riot Bimbo posted:

It's so sloppy. This feels like something we only sort of have evidence for something fucky because of the internet. Pre-internet all these weird deaths and loose threads would've been memory holed by official outlets and the far more limited, restricted nature of information pre-internet.

Honestly think the fake news thing is a way to obfuscate reality specifically for this sort of poo poo. One can't like, take the internet away, without seeming like an out of character tyrant. Can't do poo poo like that without a heel turn, but herd people into a handful of outlets, control the ways they can interact, manually disperse unwanted groupings of people, like we don't talk about it anymore but we know the earliest known examples are the russian troll farms, were all about controlling discourse relevant to Russian interests.

This is the worst.

it doesn't have to be sloppy. it might be elegant, or it might be a bit of both, like experiencing a complex system decaying from inside it.

consider a first-order cybernetic system. for example, take the scene from the imitation game where cumberbatch's turing insists on letting the subs sink to preserve the program's secrecy: what all the characters realize is that, by estimating the maximum probability of detection from information leaked by acting on enigma information, relative to not doing so, and maintaining that difference in probability below a critical threshold, the program's control over allied behavior could remain mathematically indistinguishable from random noise, thus rendering their behavior unpredictable. simple enough. but instead of manually setting that threshold, we can fairly easily imagine a kind of complex system made out of first-order systems self regulating to that effect, thus expanding the idea to a second-order control system.

here, I think this passage from the macy's conferences on cybernetics is probably better than anything I can produce:

quote:

Ashby: Yes. It is a peculiar advantage of the ultrastable system that it has some ability to develop vicarious function; in fact, one can work out quite easily what it can stand and what it cannot. Suppose, for instance, its effects, its outputs to the environment, were the flexors and extensors of an arm. If they are crossed over, the organism has to do just the opposite of what it did before. This type of system can and will readapt to changes like that (1). The change-over will reverse the action and will probably send a reversed effect to the essential variables. Whereas before the change, the organism was acting like a thermostat, pulling its temperature always back to the optimum, after the change it will become like a thermostat with its parts reversed, so that it develops a runaway. But the very fact that it develops the runaway means that automatically the corrective feedback will throw the switches about in a random way. Such changes can stop when, and only when, the temperature gets back to the center again; in other words, it can stop only when the brain develops a pattern which holds the temperature stable.

The self-corrective power of this system can be shown most clearly by a comparison with the automatic pilot. The automatic pilot keeps the aircraft stable by acting on the ailerons, so that when the craft rolls a little to the right, it introduces a change which forces the aircraft to roll to the left. The automatic pilot has to be joined to the ailerons with some care because if it is joined to them the wrong way round, any small disturbance is self-aggravating, and the automatic pilot under such conditions will overturn the aircraft. A system with second-order feedback, however, will not do that. If joined on the wrong way, the circuit will be unstable and it will at first behave exactly as the wrongly connected automatic pilot does: it will start to increase the disturbance. But the very fact that it goes outside the normal limits will force changes in its network, random changes that can stop when, and only when, the roll is back to zero again. If a mechanism of this type were to be made into an automatic pilot and if the mechanic asked, �Which way shall I join it on to the ailerons?,� the answer would be, �It doesn�t matter; join it which way you like; the mechanism will sort itself out.�

Fremont-Smith: Don�t you have to make assumptions about how much time lag there is in the environment?

Ashby: Yes, very much so.

now, one explanation for the information leaks could then be the system require a certain amount of internal resistance, and part of the function served by the internet is acting like a massive feedback system towards maintaining that goldilocks resistance level; the system simply throws out small bits of random controlled information when it gets off kilter. or maybe it is just sloppy, in that the system's time-lag assumptions don't hold up on long timescales and information starts leaking. maybe it leaks information that's been inferentially sanitized and no longer registers as worth devoting energy to controlling. maybe all of the above in some system of its own.

much like movie turing ruthlessly lets the allied subs sink to inferentially sanitize what information necessarily does leak to the nazis when they act and thus makes it very difficult, in principle, for them to determine what controls the allies' behavior, inhibiting their ability to adapt, it would be very difficult for us to determine control and effective adaptations when this system potentially controls the maximum probability any individual signal or connection can be detected. but what really cracks my ping is this view doesn't require anyone to be in control. in fact, it's precisely in this way it would be superior in terms of control to the pre-internet regime. here, like a higher/simpler form of the imperialist regime which required first-order control by a ruling class and whose complexity was thus limited by that ruling class, the system controls itself. it can grow its control freely, and the old ruling class now behaves rather more like a semi-vestigial symbiotic parasite that eats waste/excess energy in capital's internal ecology--as simply another feedback mechanism--than like a system of controlling nodes. and somehow that feels worse.

anyway, thanks for coming to my wendy's

also, I just watched cold case hammarskjold on this thread's recommendation. goddamn. lmao. :captainpop:

mads br�gger bumbling into non-euclidean geometry and horrors from beyond the veil, expressing in adorable danish accent his growing but still fairly mild curiousity as to what that's all about now, very much does it for me.

# ? Apr 21, 2021 12:08

nut: Jul 30, 2019

Speaking of Macy Conferences, I got something cooking 4 the thread in the future.

# ? Apr 21, 2021 12:56

Former DILF: Jul 13, 2017

I had a brain moment wrt the Kenosha shooting. Does any recall a second rifle being used by Kyle Rittenhouse?

based on this photo:

https://twitter.com/4lisaguerrero/status/1384735911041110019

and this photo:

there are either two Kyles each with a unique rifle or Kyle had two rifles on that day

in this photo we see circled in red a clear buffer tube and a stock forming a 90 degree divot, and circled in green a rounded handguard on the barrel

in this second photo, that buffer tube disappears as well as the divot in the stock, it forms a clean 90 degree, meanwhile, circled in green is a handguard with picatinny rail running down its length, that blue arrow is pointing out the raised ending rail

# ? Apr 21, 2021 14:27

nut: Jul 30, 2019

welp

# ? Apr 21, 2021 14:48

Former DILF: Jul 13, 2017

the "two kyles" theory I came up with is based on this arrest:

https://www.newser.com/story/298560/guy-who-allegedly-bought-gun-for-kyle-rittenhouse-is-charged.html

quote:

he man who allegedly bought an assault rifle for 17-year-old Kyle Rittenhouse, who allegedly used it to kill two people and injure a third in Kenosha, Wis., has been charged. Dominick David Black, 19, faces two felony counts of intentionally giving a gun to a minor, causing death.

this guy is also a doughy white guy with similar hair:

E: this one's pretty out there, doesn't really look like him in the photos

Former DILF has issued a correction as of 15:10 on Apr 21, 2021

# ? Apr 21, 2021 14:53

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# ? May 26, 2024 15:02

smarxist: Jul 26, 2018; by Fluffdaddy

maybe i'm not much of a gun fucker but it just looks like the diff between the lighting/contrasts/shadows

# ? Apr 21, 2021 14:53

The Something Awful Forums > Discussion > C-SPAM > [Epstein] Hello madda / Hello fadda / Gotta syndrome / Called Havana!

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