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willie_dee posted:He saved the lady in pinks life. Ah, I see we've moved on to "I will fight you in an Arbys parking lot" level of discourse.
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Apr 21, 2021 16:36
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happyhippy posted:Was it with Floyd's death that the police themselves turned up and clapped for the cop the day after? If this is the event I'm thinking of, it was the Buffalo police who attacked that older guy.
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Apr 21, 2021 16:36
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Also I, in no way, think that the officer in question is a good cop. I'd give good odds on that arm wrap hiding a sleeve of norse runes or something similar.
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Apr 21, 2021 16:36
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Josef bugman posted:I mean the experiment you made up in your own head and that you have not tested might not be the best in terms of giving accurate results, would it? It's a really common way of training knife defence, and its normally used as a demonstration as to why going hands on with someone who has a knife is utterly insane for anyone, no matter how trained they are in self defence, because you get covered in ink, and just one bit of ink demonstrates a severe injury. The fact you are questioning this shows how little you have ever contemplated or attempted to do any kind of physical combat or self defence. Josef bugman posted:Ah, I see we've moved on to "I will fight you in an Arbys parking lot" level of discourse. Don't get it twisted, im not saying "I am going to beat you up to show you you are wrong", the purpose isn't to show you I am tougher than you. It is to show how silly it is for anyone to try and take someone on with a knife, particularly mid knife attack.
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Apr 21, 2021 16:36
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willie_dee posted:He saved the lady in pinks life. Maybe instead of taking the time to draw a gun, the officer should have instead grabbed Bryant E: edited for more clarity Kalit fucked around with this message at 16:42 on Apr 21, 2021 |
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Apr 21, 2021 16:36
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Charlz Guybon posted:What was their justification for that one? The police's job is to arrest people who have committed crimes, not to stop crimes from being committed. Stopping crimes is totally optional and the equivalent of being a Good Samaritan.
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Apr 21, 2021 16:38
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willie_dee posted:He saved the lady in pinks life. I am not disagreeing with you on that point, I just think the whole situation is awful and it’s it’s still depressing and at the end of the day there is no such thing as a “good” shoot. The whole situation is a cluster gently caress and every new detail makes it more depressing. ryde posted:Also I, in no way, think that the officer in question is a good cop. I'd give good odds on that arm wrap hiding a sleeve of norse runes or something similar. Dapper_Swindler fucked around with this message at 16:45 on Apr 21, 2021 |
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Apr 21, 2021 16:41
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Kalit posted:Maybe instead of taking the time to draw a gun, the officer should have instead grabbed Bryant when she shoved the first person to the ground? I think he was too busy dealing with the fact someone was kicking someone else in the head during this time and the utter madness that he was arriving to, not having seen the fact that this wasn't a minor scrap between people, but actually someone was trying to actively murder someone in full view of the police.  But no, all these absolute heroes itt would of both saved the girl in pink and not hurt the girl with the knife who is literally mid stab. 
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Apr 21, 2021 16:42
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willie_dee posted:It's a really common way of training knife defence, and its normally used as a demonstration as to why going hands on with someone who has a knife is utterly insane for anyone, no matter how trained they are in self defence, because you get covered in ink, and just one bit of ink demonstrates a severe injury. Another really common way of training people is to imagine things that are hugely unlikely to happen and then have them work through it because You Could Be In Danger. We've already seen over the course of the last few decades that training methods for US police are, at best, starkly apocalyptic and/or worryingly horny. What manner of knife are they using in this? Is it going to be one of those cases where you believe every knife is a loving machete? I'm questioning it because I know that stabbings happen and I know they can be lethal. I also know that the police shouldn't mag dump a young person, nor can you say that they saved someones life when they could have easily killed the other person involved.
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Apr 21, 2021 16:43
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Was the girl in pink one of the attackers? Was the girl in black trying to fight her off? Id watch the video but I really don't want to witness child murder.
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Apr 21, 2021 16:43
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Also, without necessarily endorsing willie_dee's other points, I can confirm that I used the sharpie method when doing martial arts as an example of knife fights. And yes, the take away is that you should run from a knife fight, and if you can't you need to be prepared to get hosed up; specifically you have to decide which limbs you're going to allow to get hosed up. That's not to say the cop shouldn't have tried; I think that they have a responsibility to go above what a civilian can be reasonably expected to do -- my take is that they really didn't have enough time to tackle the girl.BigBallChunkyTime posted:Was the girl in pink one of the attackers? Was the girl in black trying to fight her off? At the point in time the police officer arrives, the girl in pink is doing nothing but standing. The girl in black is being actively aggressive and attacking people. After tackling one girl, she turns and rushes the girl in pink, who is backed against a car. This happens in the space of 10 seconds. ryde fucked around with this message at 16:48 on Apr 21, 2021 |
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Apr 21, 2021 16:43
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Dapper_Swindler posted:I am not disagreeing with you on that point, I just think the whole situation is awful and it’s it’s still depressing and at the end of the day there is no such thing as a “good” shoot. The whole situation is a cluster gently caress and every new detail makes it more depressing. Why then do you think the officer should be fired? He arrived and saved someone from being murdered.
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Apr 21, 2021 16:44
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V. Illych L. posted:also norwegian police have been quite trigger-happy themselves lately. unarmed-as-a-rule has been fully hollowed out for reasons that seem to me to be obscure American killer cops have been aggressively exporting their radicalisation for decades.
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Apr 21, 2021 16:44
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willie_dee posted:You do it, lets do an experiment. I'll grab a sharpie pen (instead of an actual knife) and an innocent by stander. You have to use the taser and non lethal force to stop me killing both the person I am in the process of "killing" and stop me from killing you. (covering you in sharpie pen) You're absolutely right that I'm a civilian and cannot put myself in the shoes of the officer. I don't think that prevents me from thinking that "the child who called the police for her protection will turn and mindlessly attempt to kill the officer responding to that call" is an unreasonable assumption to use to justify her killing. That the officer repeatedly shot her before having a chance to assess the situation and determine the reality of it isn't much of a defense in my eyes. YMMV. The other thing I find amazing in the narrative is that "fear for his life" is literally being used, right now ITT, to justify the actions of the officer but not for his victim. So long as we're running inane hypotheticals, let's imagine that Ma'Khia is, rather than a child, a police officer. Her killer, rather than responding to a 911 call, is responding to a colleague's call for backup. We know, from the call, that Ma'Khia was in fear for her life. We know, from the videos and stills, that she was using her less-lethal (in this case, a knife. In the hypothetical, let's call it a taser, baton, or gun with less lethal rounds) in a manner likely to cause grievous bodily harm and/or death. Is the expectation still that her killer, responding to a call for backup, would fire his weapon to protect the other party without assessing the situation? If it's not, then why the gently caress are you holding a child to a higher standard of behavior and fear for her life than you are a police officer?
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Apr 21, 2021 16:45
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willie_dee posted:I think he was too busy dealing with the fact someone was kicking someone else in the head during this time and the utter madness that he was arriving to. He was literally drawing his gun when she ran right by him. If he had grabbed her instead of drawing his gun, it could have been avoided. I queued up this video so you can see it: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Pjf-6xcjkbA&t=60s
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Apr 21, 2021 16:45
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Josef bugman posted:Another really common way of training people is to imagine things that are hugely unlikely to happen and then have them work through it because You Could Be In Danger. We've already seen over the course of the last few decades that training methods for US police are, at best, starkly apocalyptic and/or worryingly horny. Are you really trying to argue the ridiculous notion that some knives aren't dangerous? And that not only that, that officers are supposed to calculate and assess what kind of knife that it is being thrust into the victims face and neck when they arrive before they decide if they should intervene to prevent said knife being used to kill someone, because, it might not be dangerous?
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Apr 21, 2021 16:47
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Paracaidas posted:Ah, yes, "To protect and serve. So long as it does not come with even the chance personal risk to myself, at which point killing a child is not only defensible but the only justified reaction." That well known police mantra. "Protect and Serve" is just a motto and has nothing to do with their job description or professional duties. That was also determined in a court case.
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Apr 21, 2021 16:47
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willie_dee posted:But no, all these absolute heroes itt would of both saved the girl in pink and not hurt the girl with the knife who is literally mid stab. As opposed to the one person in this thread who keeps bringing it back to "I want her to die because she's a threat" ? You just need a justification to kill, which makes you better than some police at least but not better than a lot of them, and we've seen that is pretty bad.
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Apr 21, 2021 16:47
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willie_dee posted:Why then do you think the officer should be fired? Probably because he could have easily hit the other girl too when he pumped a bunch of rounds in. Personally I’d like to know all the details of the case and who called the cops and such.
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Apr 21, 2021 16:47
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Kalit posted:He was literally drawing his gun when she ran right by him. If he had grabbed her instead of drawing his gun, it could have been avoided. I queued up this video so you can see it: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Pjf-6xcjkbA&t=60s Come do the experiment, you try and grab me and see how much sharpie you end up with in your face and neck. The video you linked at the time stamp you have someone explaining "here she is attempting top stab the first female"... Oh yea, in those 3 to 6 seconds, rather than pull out a gun, there are humans on this planet who can think and act not just with super human speed, but they can also get physical with someone with a knife and hope to survive. You have no idea what it is you are talking about.
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Apr 21, 2021 16:49
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Dapper_Swindler posted:Probably because he could have easily hit the other girl too when he pumped a bunch of rounds in. Personally I’d like to know all the details of the case and who called the cops and such. Behind evaluations of whether non-lethal or less-lethal force was advisable in this case, this is the second thing I had a problem with. Handguns, used in a heated situation, can be incredibly inaccurate and its really lucky the girl in pink wasn't hit. I think its also reasonable to question whether the information about the girl with the knife being in fear for her life was relayed to the cop. That's something that we know she conveyed to dispatch, but I didn't find any information on whether it was relayed to the cop. willie_dee posted:Oh yea, in those 3 to 6 seconds, rather than pull out a gun, there are humans on this planet who can think and act not just with super human speed, but they can also get physical with someone with a knife and hope to survive. I think people really underestimate how long it takes to evaluate a situation. The thing that comes to mind is when I stopped a purse snatcher. I noticed that the guy in question was acting shady and had time to prepare, but when it came to stopping him everything was a blur. There was no time to evaluate and I definitely didn't handle the take-down nearly as well as I could have. Cops should have training and be held to higher standards, but there's definite limits to how fast you can react to a situation. ryde fucked around with this message at 16:55 on Apr 21, 2021 |
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Apr 21, 2021 16:51
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willie_dee posted:Are you really trying to argue the ridiculous notion that some knives aren't dangerous? Yes? I have a blunt knife I use for cutting fruit and it's hard to do and would take more force than I am probably capable of to do damage with if you applied it to skin or fabric. (USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST)
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Apr 21, 2021 16:51
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Josef bugman posted:As opposed to the one person in this thread who keeps bringing it back to "I want her to die because she's a threat" ? You just need a justification to kill, which makes you better than some police at least but not better than a lot of them, and we've seen that is pretty bad. Where do you get that I want her to die?! Utter rubbish. It is a tragic situation and I feel awful that her life ended, and that her life was so bad she ended up in a foster home with the issues escalating to the point where she was probably having mental health issues that resulted in her making very poor decisions. The only option to save the girl in pink was to kill her, and that is terrible. She was clearly failed by her parents, the social services and medical professionals assigned to her, if she was assigned any.
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Apr 21, 2021 16:52
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Dapper_Swindler posted:Probably because he could have easily hit the other girl too when he pumped a bunch of rounds in. Personally I’d like to know all the details of the case and who called the cops and such. He knows his accuracy rate at that range, he made a snap judgement, it was the correct one. He saved a life.
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Apr 21, 2021 16:52
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willie_dee posted:Come do the experiment, you try and grab me and see how much sharpie you end up with in your face and neck. The problem is that his immediate instinct is to pull out his gun, because a gun solves all problems. That's what cops in this country are trained to do. 20/20 hindsight, he very well could admit there were better solutions to solve this. But this is about a failure on how cops are trained in our country and the personalities that a lot of them have, immediately escalate to the Nth degree. Kalit fucked around with this message at 16:56 on Apr 21, 2021 |
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Apr 21, 2021 16:53
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willie_dee posted:Where do you get that I want her to die?! Utter rubbish. Because you keep bringing it back to what the police officer "had" to do and dismiss any concerns people have as rubbish? Your whole thing is going "erm, actually" about the police killing someone. That and defending how "he had to resort to murder, murder is the only option available!" it makes things seem a bit creepy to be blunt. Josef bugman fucked around with this message at 17:00 on Apr 21, 2021 |
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Apr 21, 2021 16:55
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Charlz Guybon posted:What was their justification for that one? It was a 5-4 decision written by Scalia, which I'm sure will surprise you: https://www.nytimes.com/2005/06/28/politics/justices-rule-police-do-not-have-a-constitutional-duty-to-protect.html There was a similar case that ended in a federal circuit court where a guy who was stabbed a bunch of times sued NYPD because they had stationed cops to look for a guy who was running around stabbing people but the cop stationed near this guy ran away and locked himself in a utility room to watch through a window when the stabbing started. The attacker was subdued by other people nearby and the cop then came back and called more police but wouldn't let anyone help the stabbing victim as he lay bleeding out, but he lived to see himself lose in court.
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Apr 21, 2021 16:57
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Nobody has yet to answer the single question of "Should the cop have let that other girl get stabbed" given that the knife was literally on the way to being inside the victim when the cop fired and instead just deflects it with a snide comment about child murder while ignoring the attempted murder happening right there in front of their face
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Apr 21, 2021 17:03
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Kalit posted:The problem is that his immediate instinct is to pull out his gun, because a gun solves all problems. That's what cops in this country are trained to do. this.
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Apr 21, 2021 17:03
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HonorableTB posted:Nobody has yet to answer the single question of "Should the cop have let that other girl get stabbed" given that the knife was literally on the way to being inside the victim when the cop fired and instead just deflects it with a snide comment about child murder while ignoring the attempted murder happening right there in front of their face At least one person has said "yes, because she wouldn't die from a stab wound."
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Apr 21, 2021 17:04
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HonorableTB posted:Nobody has yet to answer the single question of "Should the cop have let that other girl get stabbed" given that the knife was literally on the way to being inside the victim when the cop fired and instead just deflects it with a snide comment about child murder while ignoring the attempted murder happening right there in front of their face Can I ask you a related question "Does the state have the right to kill people for others good"? Because gently caress me if we start going down that particular road then there should be a lot more dead people.
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Apr 21, 2021 17:06
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There has only been one time in my life that I honestly thought I was about to die a lovely painful death like you see on Liveleak, and that was when someone held me captive for 5 minutes with a large kitchen knife to my throat. That was 20 years ago and I get shivers thinking about it
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Apr 21, 2021 17:07
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ryde posted:At least one person has said "yes, because she wouldn't die from a stab wound."  Josef bugman posted:Can I ask you a related question "Does the state have the right to kill people for others good"? Because gently caress me if we start going down that particular road then there should be a lot more dead people. Yes, it does, because the state was granted that authority through power of law. SHOULD it? No, but that's not what your question was, and I'm answering it as it was asked. The problem with this is that there is no objective way to decide who is and isn't good, but it's not exactly a moral quandary to take a life in self defense or in the defense of others especially when someone else is about to directly lose THEIR life as a result of inaction HonorableTB fucked around with this message at 17:12 on Apr 21, 2021 |
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Apr 21, 2021 17:07
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I’m anti-cop as gently caress but uhhh that knife was mid thrust going at the girl in pink. I mean ACAB and all but it’s hard to justify not applying deadly force to someone in the process of stabbing someone else. I’d also like to point out that cops have earned no benefit of the doubt and are deeply in the red on the matter of use of force and I immediately assumed he just blasted someone for no apparent reason. The video is rough. gently caress I dunno. Ugh. I hate that we even have to debate this poo poo. Also knife wounds are loving awful and lethal and people acting like knife wounds are no big deal are super dumb.
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Apr 21, 2021 17:09
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LeeMajors posted:I’d also like to point out that cops have earned no benefit of the doubt and are deeply in the red on the matter of use of force and I immediately assumed he just blasted someone for no apparent reason. The video is rough. Hell I assumed this even after watching the video because I couldn't see the knife at full speed. Had to watch the slow-mo version to change my opinion. I don't begrudge people who assume there was some way the cop could have de-escalated because we all know how cops are and its a reasonable assumption. Just happens to not be the case this time, IMO. This girl was failed by her family and the system multiple times before she picked up that knife. ryde fucked around with this message at 17:14 on Apr 21, 2021 |
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Apr 21, 2021 17:11
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Medically speaking, it is not reasonable to assume a single stab wound would be a non-fatal injury, although I feel that multiple people on both sides of the issue here are aware of that fact.
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Apr 21, 2021 17:11
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You don't need a big knife to cause lethal injury to someone. https://amp.cincinnati.com/amp/7298533002?__twitter_impression=true quote:Cincinnati police said a 13-year-old girl has been charged with murder in the stabbing death of another 13-year-old girl on Monday. One slice or stab in the wrong place is all it takes.
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Apr 21, 2021 17:14
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DetoxP posted:Medically speaking, it is not reasonable to assume a single stab wound would be a non-fatal injury, although I feel that multiple people on both sides of the issue here are aware of that fact. Knife wounds are nasty and insidious and anything central is getting maximum trauma attention. Even a single wound. Even with a known blade length and minimal suspicion of deep penetration.
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Apr 21, 2021 17:16
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ryde posted:This girl was failed by her family and the system multiple times before she picked up that knife. Yeah. She was in foster care and the people who were taking care of her made the situation worse. You can actually see in the video her foster father kicking the downed girl who Makiah first charged at.
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Apr 21, 2021 17:18
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HonorableTB posted:Yes, it does, because the state was granted that authority through power of law. SHOULD it? No, but that's not what your question was, and I'm answering it as it was asked. The problem with this is that there is no objective way to decide who is and isn't good, but it's not exactly a moral quandary to take a life in self defense or in the defense of others especially when someone else is about to directly lose THEIR life as a result of inaction Okay, if so why is [insert person you don't like who has done demonstrable harm to people] still alive? If you decide that the amount of harm someone can do is a reason to kill them, then at this point you would have to open a lot more graveyards just for the invasion of Iraq alone. You [as in the state, not yourself personally] can decide who is and isn't good, and you usually aim violence towards those who aren't.
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Apr 21, 2021 17:21
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