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Antifa Turkeesian posted:What role do police play in precipitating that murder attempt if they took an hour to show up? Quite a lot. There should be some hard questions asked and accountability if they didn't reasonably prioritize a fight where weapons were being used. According to all available information, the girl conveyed that she had a knife to dispatch, so the police should have known to prioritize it.
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Apr 21, 2021 18:28
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This discussion is a great example of what happens when your strongly held beliefs are so strongly held that they overpower your ability to consume and analyze evidence that isn't compatible with those beliefs. Congrats, you've unlocked the secret to how chuds continue to justify everything cops and trump do because this is the leftist version of "who are you gonna believe, me or your lying eyes?" when there's video evidence of an attempted murder right there in front of you, and we reached that point when SchnorkIes argued that a black girl getting murdered by another black girl is somehow preferable to the attacker getting shot and the victim being saved because it was a cop that intervened
HonorableTB fucked around with this message at 18:31 on Apr 21, 2021 |
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Apr 21, 2021 18:29
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Is this murder? Or was she attacked and was defending herself when cops shot her? Self defense, only for Whitey
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Apr 21, 2021 18:31
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Harold Fjord posted:Is this murder? Or was she attacked and was defending herself when cops shot her? The girl that got shot was actively trying to stab the victim when the cop fired. As in, the knife was about a second from entering the victim's body, the attacker was in the process of thrusting the blade
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Apr 21, 2021 18:32
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Victim, or Aggressor?
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Apr 21, 2021 18:33
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Harold Fjord posted:Is this murder? Or was she attacked and was defending herself when cops shot her? She may have been attacked before the police arrived, but when the police arrived the girl in pink was clearly not attacking her at that time. There was likely an altercation between the two, but at that point the girl in pink was not a threat. She rushed the girl in pink after knocking down another girl and tried to stab her. Usually, stand your ground is for when you're actively being attacked. That would be a reasonable position if she was stabbing the girl she was tumbling with on the ground, but not stabbing the girl in pink.
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Apr 21, 2021 18:34
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E: nvm.
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Apr 21, 2021 18:34
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HonorableTB posted:Nobody has yet to answer the single question of "Should the cop have let that other girl get stabbed" given that the knife was literally on the way to being inside the victim when the cop fired and instead just deflects it with a snide comment about child murder while ignoring the attempted murder happening right there in front of their face I reject that the officer's only two options were killing Ma'Khia and letting the other girl die. With imperfect information and needing to make a split second decision, the officer chose to kill Ma'Khia rather than attempting any other course of action. The reasoning presented for that in thread has been: A: Immediately killing Ma'Khia was justified due to the risk of professional consequences Morningwoodpecker posted:The knife is right next to the intended victims throat it only has to move a few inches. You'd need to cover the gap between you preferably silently get control of the weapon and in America obviously you'd need to put your weapon away securely first or fight one handed with your off hand once you got there. If you go for a full on tackle you'll be pushing her in the direction of the victim blade first with all your bodyweight. willie_dee posted:You going to intercept me with a baton? I'll kill you. That decision was made by an officer who is a member of a department and profession that places little value on Black life and knows that consequences for killing Black people, even children, are exceedingly rare. There is every indication that the officer's snap judgment was informed by the following factors- A lack of respect for Ma'Khia's life, no fear of consequences for killing her, removing Ma'Khia as a threat to the others at the scene, and removing Ma'Khia as a threat to himself. I'm grateful I'm not in the position to make that call and likely never will be. That doesn't mean that I can't feel he made the wrong decision, one that echoes so many other wrong decisions by officers who look like him that have lead to the assaults and murders of those who look like Ma'Khia. A decision informed by training that coaches him to see Ma'Khia as a threat and, as a threat, someone less worthy of living til tomorrow than himself. A decision informed by a department culture that enabled officers to proclaim "blue lives matter" to bystanders, as if an iota of accountability was threat to their lives. In a thread that largely can't be arsed to spell the dead child's name accurately, that falls back on well worn platitudes about her being failed by her family (while in foster care  ), in which multiple posters have determined that her actions while in fear for her life justify her death at the hands of the officer, I'm not inclined give a lot of credence to the same arguments we heard Nelson give in defense of Chauvin in the preceding days.It was a tragic situation with a tragic outcome. Based on the information currently available, I put far more of the weight and blame for that outcome on the officer than I do on Ma'Khia. The officer is the one who pulled the trigger, who did so repeatedly, and who determined in that moment that ensuring Ma'Khia's safety was no longer a part of his responsibility... that killing her was. He's also the one that we as a society (allegedly, are supposed to) hold to a higher standard.
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Apr 21, 2021 18:34
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HonorableTB posted:This discussion is a great example of what happens when your strongly held beliefs are so strongly held that they overpower your ability to consume and analyze evidence that isn't compatible with those beliefs. Congrats, you've unlocked the secret to how chuds continue to justify everything cops and trump do because this is the leftist version of "who are you gonna believe, me or your lying eyes?" when there's video evidence of an attempted murder right there in front of you, and we reached that point when SchnorkIes argued that a black girl getting murdered by another black girl is somehow preferable to the attacker getting shot and the victim being saved. That's not remotely what Schnorkles did and my point is specifically that I'm not willing to trust the cops, even when they'res video. The current video looks bad. I'm not at all willing to let the cops have this within 1 day of her death. Jussie Smollet looked super guilty right after the incident as well. Hell, there's goons who still believe he faked his own hate crime. Deciding this now justifies horseshoe is pretty loving ridiculous given the long, long history of police killing people and then immediately presenting limited evidence that proves their innocence. Harold Fjord posted:Is this murder? Or was she attacked and was defending herself when cops shot her? Who knows but it's case closed for some people in this thread and if you disagree you're basically a Trumper.
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Apr 21, 2021 18:35
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Harold Fjord posted:Victim, or Aggressor? Not sure yet. The issue is the cop arrived like 10 min after the original calls. And the call he responded to was a vague girl with knife, So he basically sees the climax of whatever was happening and sees the one person get knocked to the ground and then pink girl almost get stabbed.
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Apr 21, 2021 18:35
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Harold Fjord posted:Is this murder? Or was she attacked and was defending herself when cops shot her? I think it's hosed that the officer's immediate response was to draw his gun, but maybe you should watch the video before making the claim that Bryant might have been acting in self defense in that instance.... Kalit fucked around with this message at 18:42 on Apr 21, 2021 |
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Apr 21, 2021 18:36
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Thom12255 posted:They do yes as knives are the most dangerous things UK cops usually deal with and thus they get a lot of training for handling those situations. US cops don't get that training to the same extent if any as they're mostly worried about everyone around them being able to buy a gun down the street. I can't see that the UK cops would be able to do anything in the specific situation in the video other than to attempt to disarm the attacker after the fact and to call for an ambulance. Literally every time I see a US police video, the one thing that stands out is just the inability to handle any kind of conflict or interaction whatsoever without gross escalation of force (why the gently caress would you ever pull a gun at a traffic stop, do you think ISIS is hiding in the trunk?), but this is pretty much a textbook case of when you'd actually want an armed response. Where Person A is physically in the process of attacking Person B with a deadly weapon and there's no other practical way to prevent them from doing so. Depending on how the call came in, "someone is actively stabbing people" would absolutely also be a call that the UK cops do respond to with an armed response unit, although "some kids in the park are waving knives at each other" likely wouldn't be.
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Apr 21, 2021 18:37
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Harold Fjord posted:Is this murder? Or was she attacked and was defending herself when cops shot her? In the moment she was definitely the aggressor and at all points we see she was definitely the aggressor. When the cop shows up she's talking to another girl. She seems to have been the one who started the swinging in the first place. She rushed the girl she was talking to, who looked to be standing flat footed and even backing up. Then once that person was on the ground, she started to charge the girl in the pink, who could only retreat as far as the car. At that point the cop shot her. Has the 9-11 call been released?
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Apr 21, 2021 18:39
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Kalit posted:I think it's hosed that the officer's immediate response was to draw his gun, but maybe you should watch the video before making the claim that Bryant could have been acting in self defense.... They're saying Ma'Khia was acting in self defense. Jaxyon posted:Who knows but it's case closed for some people in this thread and if you disagree you're basically a Trumper. Its not at all case closed. All positions are tentative until all the facts come out, but the video swings the available evidence in one way and I struggle to think of anything that changes the narrative. I think that Paracaidas makes good points, but at the same time I don't really see a good way to resolve the situation even if the systemic issues weren't involved.
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Apr 21, 2021 18:41
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Antifa Turkeesian posted:What role do police play in precipitating that murder attempt if they took an hour to show up? Plenty. I’m not suggesting they’re free from blame or were perfect. But this isn’t the same kind of summary execution I’ve come to expect.
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Apr 21, 2021 18:41
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Jaxyon posted:That's not remotely what Schnorkles did and my point is specifically that I'm not willing to trust the cops, even when they'res video. No one is saying to trust the cops, but trusting cops and trusting actual video evidence in front of your face are two entirely different things unless you think they deepfaked the bodycam video or something equally insane
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Apr 21, 2021 18:41
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Columbus Police are equipped with tazers. Why didn't they use one?
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Apr 21, 2021 18:43
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I'd like to hear from the lady in pink being attacked if she thought it was justified for the gun to go off.
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Apr 21, 2021 18:44
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MillennialVulcan posted:Columbus Police are equipped with tazers. Why didn't they use one? They don't always work, they can miss more easily, they don't pierce fabric all the time, she was a second away from striking and the shock might not have stopped it or made it worse as she flailed around.
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Apr 21, 2021 18:45
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Jaxyon posted:That's not remotely what Schnorkles did and my point is specifically that I'm not willing to trust the cops, even when they'res video. Honest question: whatever happened with Smollet? I remember things in that case getting real murky and then it just kinda stopped.
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Apr 21, 2021 18:46
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MillennialVulcan posted:Columbus Police are equipped with tazers. Why didn't they use one? Knife was inches from the victim's neck, launching taser barbs into someone holding a blade that close to arteries is a great way to get a slashed throat. The risk is still there from bullets of course, but bullets don't tend to make you jerk spasmodically like electricity does Edit: I have a loving dent in my skull from protesting the cops last summer in Seattle and believe me it feels absolutely disgusting to have to side with the cops on this based on the video evidence, this is really a lovely situation all around and honestly the only thing that would've made it better is if someone at the scene in the hour between the call to the cops and the cops showing up had de-escalated or done anything except allow it to continue for an hour knowing cops were on their way.
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Apr 21, 2021 18:46
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The case being brought up, https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Warren_v._District_of_Columbia, isn't as slamdunk own as many of you think. The police in most countries have no inherent responsibility to protect anyone, and neither do the fire services or EMS. The point here is that the police can not be liable for crime that is occuring because it creates an unreasonable standard. If they fail to be everywhere at once, they're at fault. The cop not doing his job on this particular court case would be resolved administratively in the department, punishing and firing him. We also can not hold fire departments responsible when they don't make it to the accident scene on time. Lots of european countries have "duty to rescue" or "duty to render aid" somehow codified in their laws, but they all specify "within means that are reasonable at that time", and thus they absolve the police and fire from the DUTY to protect all citizens.
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Apr 21, 2021 18:48
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HonorableTB posted:Knife was inches from the victim's neck, launching taser barbs into someone holding a blade that close to arteries is a great way to get a slashed throat. The risk is still there from bullets of course, but bullets don't tend to make you jerk spasmodically like electricity does I honestly don't think that the officer was considering these factors when choosing a gun over the taser. He was almost certainly reacting to training that prioritizes the gun over the taser.
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Apr 21, 2021 18:49
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SHE WAS A SECOND AWAY FROM STRIKING is something we'll never know bc she was murdered by a racist cop. She was waving a knife in someone's face, an hour into an incident where she was holding off multiple attackers, and that's all we know right now. A lot more brandishing gets done than murdering in this country, something which cops are systematically trained to ignore.
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Apr 21, 2021 18:50
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TulliusCicero posted:Honest question: whatever happened with Smollet? I remember things in that casr getting real murky and then it just kinda stopped. They got murky because CPD were almost certainly the ones behind the attack. The DA dropped all charges and expunged his record. People to this day trust the police department that literally ran secret torture sites over a black man. HonorableTB posted:No one is saying to trust the cops, but trusting cops and trusting actual video evidence in front of your face are two entirely different things unless you think they deepfaked the bodycam video or something equally insane This is not a situation where it's either "deepfakes" or "100% totally awesome good kill". I'm saying: - Don't ever, ever, EVER trust the cops even if there's video. They never ever get the benefit of the doubt. - Wait until all the information is out. It's currently not.
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Apr 21, 2021 18:51
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SchnorkIes posted:SHE WAS A SECOND AWAY FROM STRIKING is something we'll never know bc she was murdered by a racist cop. She was waving a knife in someone's face, an hour into an incident where she was holding off multiple attackers, and that's all we know right now. At this point it would also be reasonable to ask if there is a situation where police can use force according to you?
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Apr 21, 2021 18:52
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SchnorkIes posted:SHE WAS A SECOND AWAY FROM STRIKING is something we'll never know bc she was murdered by a racist cop. She was waving a knife in someone's face, an hour into an incident where she was holding off multiple attackers, and that's all we know right now. I don't understand how you can watch the video and think she was brandishing instead of actively trying to stab someone.
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Apr 21, 2021 18:53
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ryde posted:I honestly don't think that the officer was considering these factors when choosing a gun over the taser. He was almost certainly reacting to training that prioritizes the gun over the taser. I'll give you the point on this, I think you're 100% correct here.
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Apr 21, 2021 18:54
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SchnorkIes posted:SHE WAS A SECOND AWAY FROM STRIKING is something we'll never know bc she was murdered by a racist cop. She was waving a knife in someone's face, an hour into an incident where she was holding off multiple attackers, and that's all we know right now. Honest question: did you watch the video? She was thrusting the knife into a defensive person when she was shot.
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Apr 21, 2021 18:54
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I'm wondering how, an hour into a situation, the cop arrives just 2 seconds before this girl is about to stab someone. That seems like the kind of thing I'd roll my eyes at if I'm watching a movie, what a crazy coincidence.
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Apr 21, 2021 18:54
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Vahakyla posted:At this point it would also be reasonable to ask if there is a situation where police can use force according to you? In the US, maybe a quick response force intervening in something like the Mumbai terror raid of '08. That's about it, and I don't trust Americans not to just use it as a SWAT team.
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Apr 21, 2021 18:54
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SchnorkIes posted:SHE WAS A SECOND AWAY FROM STRIKING is something we'll never know bc she was murdered by a racist cop. She was waving a knife in someone's face, an hour into an incident where she was holding off multiple attackers, and that's all we know right now. your shtick would be more interesting if you at least watched the video ryde posted:I honestly don't think that the officer was considering these factors when choosing a gun over the taser. He was almost certainly reacting to training that prioritizes the gun over the taser. i think this is the far more interesting point, tbh - independent of the facts of this specific case there are huge problems in creating a police force who are trained to default to deadly force - especially when they apply this training inequitably
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Apr 21, 2021 18:55
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SchnorkIes posted:SHE WAS A SECOND AWAY FROM STRIKING is something we'll never know bc she was murdered by a racist cop. She was waving a knife in someone's face, an hour into an incident where she was holding off multiple attackers, and that's all we know right now. Do we know anything about the cop in question to state that he is racist?
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Apr 21, 2021 18:55
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Thom12255 posted:Do we know anything about the cop in question to state that he is rasicst? He's a cop, a member of a force descended directly from slavecatchers and pinkertons, we had a whole summer of riots about this last year.
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Apr 21, 2021 18:56
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Thom12255 posted:Do we know anything about the cop in question to state that he is rasicst? Nothing definitive. He has a tattoo sleeve on his left arm that he covers on duty. No idea if there's a "no visible tattoos" policy but I'm inclined to think that they would be embarassing given how embedded white nationalists are into the police force.
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Apr 21, 2021 18:56
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Jaxyon posted:I'm saying: At what point do we know if all of the information is out? Even if the cops/state says it is at some point, they could still be withholding information....
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Apr 21, 2021 18:56
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ryde posted:I honestly don't think that the officer was considering these factors when choosing a gun over the taser. He was almost certainly reacting to training that prioritizes the gun over the taser. This is the correct answer.
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Apr 21, 2021 18:57
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SchnorkIes posted:He's a cop, a member of a force descended directly from slavecatchers and pinkertons, we had a whole summer of riots about this last year. You're right the history of the police is overwhelmingly negative - that doesn't mean every individual police officer is a racist wanting to murder all black people. Maybe he is! But we have nothing to go on so maybe don't let it bias how you view that video.
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Apr 21, 2021 18:57
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Why is this thread giving the cops the benefit of the doubt, a day after "full abolition" was seemingly the thread consensus. They don't need you to defend them!
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Apr 21, 2021 18:59
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Thom12255 posted:You're right the history of the police is overwhelmingly negative - that doesn't mean every individual police officer is a racist wanting to murder all black people. Maybe he is! But we have nothing to go on so maybe don't let it bias how you view that video. Racism in the police is institutional, not just individual. quote:that doesn't mean every individual police officer is a racist wanting to murder all black people. This is a childlike conceptualization of racism.
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Apr 21, 2021 19:00
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