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SchnorkIes posted:Why is this thread giving the cops the benefit of the doubt, a day after "full abolition" was seemingly the thread consensus. They don't need you to defend them! Some of us watched a video where the actions taken don't seem that absurd given the situation that was occurring in a tiny moment of time. I'd like to hear from all the witnesses at the scene involved as well as the 9/11 call and an explanation of why it took an hour to send someone out to deal with a knife attack. But the video doesn't help the victim's case much. Derek Chauvin spent 9 minutes murdering someone on the street, this cop took a split-second decision that may have saved someones life at the cost of an attackers life, they aren't the same situation.
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Apr 21, 2021 19:00
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SchnorkIes posted:Why is this thread giving the cops the benefit of the doubt, a day after "full abolition" was seemingly the thread consensus. They don't need you to defend them! We're not. We're not giving them the benefit of the doubt. We pretty much unanimously assumed that this was another Rice/Toledo/Floyd. We altered our opinion *after video evidence came out*. That's not giving cops the benefit of a doubt. Edit: I think you need to take a step back if you honestly consider anything short of "Everything cops do are bad at all times with no exceptions even in the face of literal video evidence!" as giving cops the benefit of the doubt. Saying that this one instance isn't the same as multiple instances of clear police brutality is not, in any way, advocating that policing as an institution is okay and doesn't need to be replaced. ryde fucked around with this message at 19:04 on Apr 21, 2021 |
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Apr 21, 2021 19:00
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Thom12255 posted:Some of us watched a video where the actions taken don't seem that absurd given the situation that was occurring in a tiny moment of time. I'd like to hear from all the witnesses at the scene involved as well as the 9/11 call and an explanation of why it took an hour to send someone out to deal with a knife attack. But the video doesn't help the victim's case much. You literally just asked us to prove that a cop specifically wants to kill all black people at all times before we can talk about racism. You don't actually get to be taken seriously in a discussion of racial violence. ryde posted:We're not. We're not giving them the benefit of the doubt. We pretty much unanimously assumed that this was another Rice/Toledo/Floyd. We altered our opinion *after video evidence came out*. That's not giving cops the benefit of a doubt. I've seen the video too. I'm still willing to hold off on saying the police did the right thing here because i"m not willing to give them the benefit the doubt. Looking at the thing the police specifically released in order to exonerate their guy and accepting it less than 24hrs after a child is shot dead is giving them the benefit of the doubt.
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Apr 21, 2021 19:01
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SchnorkIes posted:Why is this thread giving the cops the benefit of the doubt, a day after "full abolition" was seemingly the thread consensus. They don't need you to defend them! nobody is giving "the cops" the benefit of the doubt you dumbass, people are arguing that this specific incident isn't as cut and dried as almost every other police shooting where the cops are mowing down innocent people, and despite this that even if it is "justified" (which we don't know yet) this incident speaks to bigger systemic issues. you posting inane nonsense about how knives aren't actually dangerous, we can't know what happened because it hasn't happened yet, or - what is perhaps the dumbest thing i've read on SA today - that its preferable to let people murder one another because at least the "community" is less harmed is what is actually forcing people to "defend" cops - if by "defending cops" you mean "pointing out that stabbing someone can hurt them" at least try to attempt to understand even a sliver of nuance - again, the conversation should be about how its bad to have a police force who defaults to deadly force at the slightest provocation - even if this was one of the almost unheard of situations where deadly forced was justified
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Apr 21, 2021 19:02
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Gustav posted:I'm wondering how, an hour into a situation, the cop arrives just 2 seconds before this girl is about to stab someone. That seems like the kind of thing I'd roll my eyes at if I'm watching a movie, what a crazy coincidence. i believe the cops took like 10 or so min to get there and there were multiple calls from different people. i don't think he just sat in the car or some poo poo until it got like this. ryde posted:I honestly don't think that the officer was considering these factors when choosing a gun over the taser. He was almost certainly reacting to training that prioritizes the gun over the taser. this. the failure here is that american cops are trained to go for the Dredd option the second poo poo gets bad. in some cases its understandable but gently caress if i know with this case, this case is genuinely a loving depressing tragedy.
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Apr 21, 2021 19:03
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Jaxyon posted:You literally just asked us to prove that a cop specifically wants to kill all black people at all times before we can talk about racism. I asked for some, ANY, information on the cop and his character or views before decrying them as automatically racist and looking to shoot somebody at the scene he pulled up to. There is nothing right now we know about him so why call him that?
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Apr 21, 2021 19:03
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ryde posted:We're not. We're not giving them the benefit of the doubt. We pretty much unanimously assumed that this was another Rice/Toledo/Floyd. We altered our opinion *after video evidence came out*. That's not giving cops the benefit of a doubt. It's this. I also immediately thought the cops were just shooting people like normal, then the video was released and the evidence in the video is not something I can ignore. However, because I am a rational human being capable of informational synthesis, should new evidence come to light I will also consider it and change my views accordingly just as I did once already with this case.
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Apr 21, 2021 19:03
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Thom12255 posted:I asked for some, ANY, information on the cop and his character or views before decrying them as automatically racist and looking to shoot somebody at the scene he pulled up to. Yes, like I said, you should not be taken seriously in this discussion because you don't even understand the most basic elements of racism in policing in the US. You repeating your very silly ideas isn't necessary, we got it. In the spirit of being productive, I'd suggest you go read the police thread before commenting here further. I mean, you won't, but trust me you should.
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Apr 21, 2021 19:04
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at this point the only other information that's likely to come out would be witness statements or other videos/angles of the incident.
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Apr 21, 2021 19:05
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ryde posted:We're not. We're not giving them the benefit of the doubt. We pretty much unanimously assumed that this was another Rice/Toledo/Floyd. We altered our opinion *after video evidence came out*. That's not giving cops the benefit of a doubt. same. i fully assumed it was gonna be some girls fighting and they seperate or something when the cop shows up and he blows one of them away
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Apr 21, 2021 19:05
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SchnorkIes posted:Why is this thread giving the cops the benefit of the doubt, a day after "full abolition" was seemingly the thread consensus. They don't need you to defend them! LeeMajors posted:Honest question: did you watch the video?
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Apr 21, 2021 19:05
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Thom12255 posted:You're right the history of the police is overwhelmingly negative - that doesn't mean every individual police officer is a racist wanting to murder all black people. Maybe he is! But we have nothing to go on so maybe don't let it bias how you view that video. I've never really found the idea of trying to identify "individual" racism that useful in conversations like these. What I think is pretty likely is that the cop had been trained, officially and unofficially, to understand that in an altercation involving a bunch of black people, he can kill pretty much indiscriminately without consequence, because that's how policing in the United States works. So when things get chaotic, he just starts shooting people. US cops only have incentives to move in one direction on the use of force continuum. Now, in this particular case, the video paints a compelling picture that him shooting the person he shot at the time he did was more defensible of an action than the average cop shooting is. But the analysis to look for is broader than "he was a good cop who did the right thing" or "he was a bad cop who did the wrong thing."
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Apr 21, 2021 19:05
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Jaxyon posted:Yes, like I said, you should not be taken seriously in this discussion because you don't even understand the most basic elements of racism in policing in the US. What in that video makes you think the cop wouldn't have shot a white person lunging at someone else with a knife? I think there is a problem in the US with police using guns to solve every problem but I don't see how it should be assumed that this was a racist act in this case?
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Apr 21, 2021 19:06
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^^^ Nope, you don't get replied to anymore. Go read the police thread, at a minimum.raminasi posted:I've never really found the idea of trying to identify "individual" racism that useful in conversations like these. What I think is pretty likely is that the cop had been trained, officially and unofficially, to understand that in an altercation involving a bunch of black people, he can kill pretty much indiscriminately without consequence, because that's how policing in the United States works. So when things get chaotic, he just starts shooting people. US cops only have incentives to move in one direction on the use of force continuum. "I need individual proof that this particular person specifically hated black people and want to kill them" is bog standard white supremacist BS. It's an immature understanding of how racism works that comes from many whites never having to have an adult conversation about racism and how it presents itself. In the context of police, even a cursory examination of the literature makes it clear that the problem isn't individual "bad cops" but an entire culture, institution, history and training system that makes it so all cops behave in a racist manner, even the ones who are from the targettted groups. But again this would require more than a grade school level of education on the subject and frankly most folks don't bother.
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Apr 21, 2021 19:08
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raminasi posted:I've never really found the idea of trying to identify "individual" racism that useful in conversations like these. What I think is pretty likely is that the cop had been trained, officially and unofficially, to understand that in an altercation involving a bunch of black people, he can kill pretty much indiscriminately without consequence, because that's how policing in the United States works. Its this. Policing is systemically racist, so the evidence he's a racist is that he's a police officer. There's degrees of racism -- you don't have to be a hood-wearing klan member to be racist. Hell I'm not going to even assume that I'm not racist because I'm sure I have prejudices somewhere that I'm blind to. That being said, there's a reasonably good chance that he's also an actual white supremacist or at the very least higher on the racism scale than normal people because policing is filled to the brim with those sorts of people.
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Apr 21, 2021 19:09
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raminasi posted:
yeah. i think either way its not a good ending to a situation like this and shows how hosed training is. id like to know context of the fight and the incident. the problem is none of that really hurts the cop because he has no way of knowing any of it because the call that he was sent out on was "girl waving knife" and not "girl was defending herself"
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Apr 21, 2021 19:09
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Paracaidas posted:I thought I've been fairly clear but in case I haven't: I dunno why nobody responded to this but it's 100% correct
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Apr 21, 2021 19:10
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), in which multiple posters have determined that her actions while in fear for her life justify her death at the hands of the officer, I'm not inclined give a lot of credence to the same arguments we heard Nelson give in defense of Chauvin in the preceding days.
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The way a lot of people are foaming at the mouth in this thread to justify what the cop HAD to do is pretty sus
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Apr 21, 2021 19:11
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Pablo Nergigante posted:I dunno why nobody responded to this but it's 100% correct Because it's a tough, nuanced, and empathetic take that speaks to accountability, hard decisions, and a history of trauma. It's hard to make someone your posting enemy when you can't distill the conversation down to two hyperbolic extremes. Thus, no response.
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Apr 21, 2021 19:12
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Thom12255 posted:What in that video makes you think the cop wouldn't have shot a white person lunging at someone else with a knife? I think there is a problem in the US with police using guns to solve every problem but I don't see how it should be assumed that this was a racist act in this case? We live in a racist society. White people are taught their entire lives that Black people are more dangerous. Even if it's not ever explicitly stated. Even if someone doesn't even consciously thinks it. From pop culture, to the news, to outwardly racist people, we (I'm not sure of your race, but I say that in relation to at least me and that officer) are constantly bombarded with this concept. It's not as simple as thinking of an action in a vacuum for thinking if race played a factor in someone's heightened aggression/actions or not.
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Apr 21, 2021 19:12
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Morningwoodpecker posted:If the active shooter surrenders immediately on seeing the cops then they'll take him alive not true, cop just shot that 13-year-old boy in Chicago who had his hands up trying to surrender also they shot the hospital worker lying on the ground with his hands up begging them not to shoot the autistic man with a toy truck who didn't understand what police are
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Apr 21, 2021 19:17
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Pablo Nergigante posted:I dunno why nobody responded to this but it's 100% correct Because very few of the things being said are actually controversial to anyone in the thread? It's a post of well worn platitudes that simultaneously decries well worn platitudes. It's not super profound just because op took 5 paragraphs to say it.
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Apr 21, 2021 19:18
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Baronash posted:Because very few of the things being said are actually controversial to anyone in the thread? Probably I'd avoid speaking for others in the thread because we got a guy on this page who's looking for the cops KKK outfit before they'll believe police racism. It's a far better post than most others going on in this thread. (USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST)
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Apr 21, 2021 19:20
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SchnorkIes posted:Why is this thread giving the cops the benefit of the doubt, a day after "full abolition" was seemingly the thread consensus. They don't need you to defend them! you are fortunately right that they don't need us to defend them, since most people rightfully see you and your ideas as completely out of touch with reality, but if you've watched the video there's not much that requires giving the "benefit of the doubt." someone was about to attempt murder on someone else and the police officer stopped that attempt by shooting the former
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Apr 21, 2021 19:20
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Morningwoodpecker posted:If the active shooter surrenders immediately on seeing the cops then they'll take him alive Police shoot unarmed people with their hands up all the time. There was recently a case you may remember where a woman asleep in bed was shot to death by police. None of these people are even active shooters, so how can you say that anyone who surrenders will be taken alive?
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Apr 21, 2021 19:21
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"I think most people in this thread agree with me, and those of you that disagree are out of touch" but like 3 or 4 posts a page
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Apr 21, 2021 19:21
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Baronash posted:Because very few of the things being said are actually controversial to anyone in the thread? I dunno I'm seeing a ton of people saying the cop was 100% justified and there were no other options?
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Apr 21, 2021 19:25
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Thom12255 posted:What in that video makes you think the cop wouldn't have shot a white person lunging at someone else with a knife? I think there is a problem in the US with police using guns to solve every problem but I don't see how it should be assumed that this was a racist act in this case? he literally thinks everything is racist and believes Jussie Smollett did nothing wrong. never met anyone quite like him (USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST)
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Apr 21, 2021 19:28
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kolby posted:he literally thinks everything is racist and believes Jussie Smollett did nothing wrong. What did Jussie Smollett do wrong?
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Apr 21, 2021 19:29
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Pablo Nergigante posted:I dunno I'm seeing a ton of people saying the cop was 100% justified and there were no other options? What other options? Honestly asking.
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Apr 21, 2021 19:30
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Antifa Turkeesian posted:What did Jussie Smollett do wrong? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alleged_assault_of_Jussie_Smollett
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Apr 21, 2021 19:31
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I don't think anyone in this thread is at the same time an expert in critical race theory, police use of force, non-lethal deescalation techniques, sharp shooting, or the art of the blade. Until you master all these things I suggest you pipe down and go read each respective megathread on the topic in the spirit of being productive. Me? I could have disarmed that girl with a pen and then used the same pen to write a 1,000 page dissertation on the topic, thus liberating all those who are oppressed at all times and sparing all future victims of police injustice. I gotta walk my dog now though so maybe later. (USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST)
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Apr 21, 2021 19:31
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Pablo Nergigante posted:I dunno I'm seeing a ton of people saying the cop was 100% justified and there were no other options? I hope that's not what you think I'm saying. It bears more investigation and there are lots of failures that contributed to this from the top down. He should have intervened with non-deadly force but I think the video evidence suggests that immediate intervention was necessary and if ever there was a case within which deadly force might be justified it would be the intervention in the case of an actual attempted murder--which is what appears to be happening here. gently caress racist policing. gently caress policing as an institution. gently caress the training that makes the gun the first reach. gently caress the training that requires cops to think of their safety above the people they purportedly serve. But yeah, this wasn't the case of a senseless summary execution of an unarmed person that we've gotten used to seeing. She was actively trying to murder the other girl and he shot her. I think its ok to admit that this may not be 100% a case of complete police incompetence or malice while also believing that police needs to be torn down and rebuilt.
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Apr 21, 2021 19:31
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I certainly wouldn't say that there were no other options but I also don't know what they would be. That being said, the cops actions were a reflex response to the situation and not an analyzed course of action, and Paracaidas is correct that the this shows deep problems with policing. While "I'm not certain there were other options" and "the actions they took show systemic problems with the police force" may seem to be contradictory positions I don't think they actually are. I'm absolutely open to my opinion on the options changing if I hear a reasonable course of action or more evidence comes out. The main plausible alternate option involves actions that happen before the police get there: respond faster and run the siren. I mentally consider that separate from what happens once the police open the door of their car, but maybe I shouldn't. ryde fucked around with this message at 19:37 on Apr 21, 2021 |
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Apr 21, 2021 19:34
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MillennialVulcan posted:Columbus Police are equipped with tazers. Why didn't they use one? Tasers are not meant to be, nor trained to be, a response to imminent deadly force. Using a taser in this circumstance would be the wrong decision bordering on negligent. This is different from someone walking around waving a knife or brandishing a knife. Even then if someone has a deadly weapon best practices is usually to have someone with a lethal weapon backing up the person with the taser. Tasers are no where close to being reliable enough to use in a situation like this.
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Apr 21, 2021 19:39
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It was brought up in the GIP thread on this that when you have 4 cops as they did here, even the notoriously brutal LAPD will attempt to use a taser and 40mm launcher while the other two cops stand by with guns, instead of 3 with hands in pockets and one going full auto.
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Apr 21, 2021 19:39
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Ironically this thread is having trouble dealing with the stabber getting shot because we're so used to cops not doing their jobs that when there is video evidence of a cop doing their job the right way for once it looks identical to when they're not and posters in this thread don't know how to recognize the difference and that in itself is a massively damning indictment of policing as an institution
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Apr 21, 2021 19:44
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Tasers are prone to failure and don't work on everyone specially when someone is full of adrenaline and charging at another's neck with a knife. Additionally, from the video it looks like the cops had just arrived. The cop immediately walks up and asks the girl in pink what's going on, Makiah starts running at the girls with the knife and the officer tells her to get down several times but Makiah ignores/doesn't hear him. The cop didn't do anything wrong in this situation. What's far more interesting is why it took the police one hour to respond to a call about a fight involving a deadly weapon. Why did it take them that long and why haven't they released the details about the 911 call and what led up to this attempted murder? That's what I want them to address soon.
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Apr 21, 2021 19:47
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Jaxyon posted:
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Apr 21, 2021 19:47
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cops simply make it very wise to want to pull out the fine-tooth comb and pour over every available detail that even remotely suggests the police could be in the wrong, in any situation in which it might be possible that the cop was not entirely in the wrong. and that's their damage, institutionally, and they deserve it.
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