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oldskool posted:I'm curious as to the source of these "Tasers are unreliable/not useful in these situations" arguments, because it seems to me tasers wouldn't be issued at all if they are rendered inert by their target being overly angry or wearing clothing. https://www.npr.org/2019/06/27/7299...ts%20marketing. in field reliability experience ranges from 57 -> 80%
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Apr 21, 2021 21:22
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I think it very likely the lady in pink made the victim, the child shooting victim, fear for her life and safety over the hour between when the victim called the police for help and when the police came and killed her. But the lady in pink picked up a small dog so clearly she's just an innocent victim
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Apr 21, 2021 21:24
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Harold Fjord posted:Murder has a pretty specific meaning that probably doesn't apply to a child who was being threatened and everyone is real quick to decide, based on video released by the cops to protect themselves, that she wasn't actually threatened but was the aggressor and had it coming because she was about to become a violent murderess. Please forgive my skepticism There’s a difference between skepticism and being willfully obtuse.
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Apr 21, 2021 21:24
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I think in some states you can’t taze an underage person because it could harm their development so I’m wondering if that’s why the cop pulled out his gun instead. Which seems so stupid that you can’t taze a child but you can shoot them with a gun.
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Apr 21, 2021 21:24
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So what I’ve gathered from this thread is goons overwhelmingly believe that cop should have watched a little girl get stabbed to death first before he tried to help.
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Apr 21, 2021 21:24
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Harold Fjord posted:I think it very likely the lady in pink made the victim, the child shooting victim, fear for her life and safety over the hour between when the victim called the police for help and when the police came and killed her. But the lady in pink picked up a small dog so clearly she's just an innocent victim So, do you think the person in pink was an immediate threat to Bryant leading up to the shooting? Do you think that Bryant would have gotten attacked by her if Bryant didn't run over to her in the seconds leading up to the shooting?
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Apr 21, 2021 21:27
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Harold Fjord posted:I think it very likely the lady in pink made the victim, the child shooting victim, fear for her life and safety over the hour between when the victim called the police for help and when the police came and killed her. But the lady in pink picked up a small dog so clearly she's just an innocent victim This is a very very bad-faith interpretation of what people are claiming.
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Apr 21, 2021 21:29
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Vahakyla posted:Yeah and it keeps trotted out repeatedly. Cops are lovely no doubt, but they have no duty towards an individual, same as fire service doesn’t. It’s a misreading of the court case, and basically every country has the same standard to the police. What court case are we talking about here? Castle Rock v Gonzalez?
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Apr 21, 2021 21:34
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Cage Kicker posted:So what I’ve gathered from this thread is goons overwhelmingly believe that cop should have watched a little girl get stabbed to death first before he tried to help. overwelmingly would be if most goons believed that. most don't.
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Apr 21, 2021 21:36
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Cage Kicker posted:So what I’ve gathered from this thread is goons overwhelmingly believe that cop should have watched a little girl get stabbed to death first before he tried to help. Thinking that shooting was the wrong call doesn't mean that they think the cop should have just watched the girl get stabbed. Only one poster (maybe two?) made that argument.
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Apr 21, 2021 21:38
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Kalit posted:It would be helpful if you described what you saw happen in the body cam video, preferably step by step. If you do this, along with possible reasons for who in the video was reacting in what way (e.g. someone doing something off camera, what happened beforehand, other viewpoints that this video does not capture, etc), I think that would help out others, including myself, see your point of view a little bit better. They are probably the kind of poster that thinks cops should have super powers and be able to act perfectly in this and all other situations by stopping people getting hurt without hurting anyone... and make all these amazing assertions whilst being too scared to even watch the video, never mind be in the situation them selves.
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Apr 21, 2021 21:40
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stop strawmanning other goons
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Apr 21, 2021 21:42
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yeah. i think the whole situation is just lovely and depressing. it sounds like dispatch hosed this up and basicaly reported only one of the calls to the cop, so he doesn't really know the situation on the ground and basicaly acts to what he sees. sure you can say its justified and such but its still shows how loving depressing our police system is with its training.
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Apr 21, 2021 21:50
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It's justified within the narrow frame of the situation that police created for it, which is all that some people need to just write off the entire question of police abolition as unwarranted and police as basically fine, which is the motivation behind a lot of strident insistence that police in a certain case acted justifiably and did "good" in the sense of potentially saving somebody etc. (USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST)
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Apr 21, 2021 21:55
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ryde posted:Thinking that shooting was the wrong call doesn't mean that they think the cop should have just watched the girl get stabbed. Only one poster (maybe two?) made that argument. The alternatives being suggested result in it being much much more likely that the victim of the attacker gets killed. I don’t know much about American cops firearms training, but people are saying that his shooting was dangerous. I think by virtue of the outcome, it’s clear the guys got skill with a firearm at that distance, and saying he “could” of hit an innocent person is countered by the simple fact he didn’t, and that he saved the other girls life. I’m not seeing how, given the situation the cop was in, he could of acted any differently to ensure the safety of the girl that was split seconds away from being stabbed by the poor girl that was ultimately killed to prevent her killing someone. The lead up to that cop being in that situation rightly needs massive overhaul, no 15 year old should be attempting to stab people whilst their carers watch and attempt to kick girls who are on the floor in the head after she’s attacked them with a knife.
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Apr 21, 2021 22:04
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Yeah the failure of the cops here was not the individual on the scene but all the failures that led to that being the situation by the time they finally got there. Looking at the snapshot context of what happened in the video ignores the broader problems we should address which is that it took them far too long to respond and let the situation devolve to the point someone was going to die. That failure is absolutely 100% on the cops and emergency services. They ended up murdering a teenager because they waited until this situation was at a breaking point before bothering to show up.
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Apr 21, 2021 22:09
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I have a question. It doesn't relate to the facts, but to the steps involved in evaluating the cops actions. Who is ultimately responsible for deciding after the fact whether the cops actions were justified? They should be held to the exact standard as a civilian in this case. Is it the local prosecutor that decides? Seems appropriate that no one involved in the state that administered the force should be able to. A civilian board should be drawn up as a jury and be made to make the choice whether that force was justified, in the case of any action resulting in death or the use of recognized deadly force. Would some goon local to this most recent event more versed in the matters explain the legalese involved in what happens when a cop kills somebody?
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Apr 21, 2021 22:09
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BlueBlazer posted:I have a question. It doesn't relate to the facts, but to the steps involved in evaluating the cops actions. The cop expresses fear for their own life or the life of someone else and they are legally covered.
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Apr 21, 2021 22:16
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So do we know what tattoos were under that sleeve? I'm still expecting something that's going to make anyone defending this real embaressed.
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Apr 21, 2021 22:17
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quote:I don’t know much about American cops firearms training, but people are saying that his shooting was dangerous. I think by virtue of the outcome, it’s clear the guys got skill with a firearm at that distance, and saying he “could” of hit an innocent person is countered by the simple fact he didn’t, and that he saved the other girls life. Edit: Also, "by virtue of the outcome" is a pretty weird way to make an argument. I bought a lottery ticket and won $100, by virtue of the outcome I should continue to buy more lottery tickets. NoDamage fucked around with this message at 22:27 on Apr 21, 2021 |
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Apr 21, 2021 22:22
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willie_dee posted:The alternatives being suggested result in it being much much more likely that the victim of the attacker gets killed. I've said this before, but I think the cop could have grabbed Bryant while she was running by him to the person she was going to stab. If he would have grabbed her and pinned her arms to her side, I think it would have been safe for both the officer and her. Instead, he took that time to draw his gun. Which, like I said before, was probably instinct due to training. However, I think that grabbing her safely would have been possible in this same context. When you replied to me the last time I said this, you said it requires thinking. But so does drawing a gun. It's about discipline and training. Drawing a gun is second nature to police officers. Alternatives to drawing a gun should be second nature and prioritized over that. Kalit fucked around with this message at 22:37 on Apr 21, 2021 |
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Apr 21, 2021 22:30
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This should be approached more like an air accident investigation than anything else. What we know is that a girl is dead. That's not good. Given this situation is bad, but there's no obvious singular mistake as there was in the Chauvin case, it's more reasonable to approach this in terms of "without assigning blame to anyone necessarily, how do we make sure this stops happening?" The fact that it really, really looked like the victim was about to stab someone probably means that there was no actual criminal action on the part of the cop. But that doesn't mean it was a good outcome to the situation, and we need to investigate the entire sequence of events, because obviously a situation that ends up with someone dead is no good. Even if the cop was 100% justified in taking that shot, at the moment he took it, there was a 16-year-old girl killed as a result, and we need to take a good look at how we can best prevent that from happening in the future.
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Apr 21, 2021 22:36
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NoDamage posted:This is hindsight bias and you have no way of knowing that. You can't use statistical aggregates to judge individual situations. Yes, there is 100% hindsight bias at play here, but we really don't have much else to go on. The reality of a situation like this when personal ability is the deciding factor and it's not obviously wrong is we're usually left to decide the correctness of the decision based on whether they were able to perform the action they bet on being able to perform. This is especially the case when the alternative choice is letting someone get stabbed. Based on the freeze-frame of the body cam when the shots were fired it was a reasonable shot for a reasonably proficient shooter to take given the circumstances. At the moment he fires there is a clear sight picture and functionally no more time before a potentially lethal attack on the girl in pink. Trying to employ a taser in that situation is not remotely realistic or appropriate.
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Apr 21, 2021 22:36
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Jarmak posted:You can't use statistical aggregates to judge individual situations. quote:Trying to employ a taser in that situation is not remotely realistic or appropriate. NoDamage fucked around with this message at 22:53 on Apr 21, 2021 |
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Apr 21, 2021 22:42
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Gumball Gumption posted:So do we know what tattoos were under that sleeve? I'm still expecting something that's going to make anyone defending this real embaressed. "I oh so desperately want this tragedy involving a dead child to play out in a way that lets me feel superior to my fellow internet posters." Go gently caress yourself.
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Apr 21, 2021 22:50
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Gumball Gumption posted:So do we know what tattoos were under that sleeve? I'm still expecting something that's going to make anyone defending this real embaressed. I'm not sure why that'd make anyone embarrassed. No-one is arguing that the cop here is a good guy. There's maybe one poster that was questioning if they're a racist.
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Apr 21, 2021 22:52
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I believe that cops should not be able to able to dispense extrajudicial executions, even if it occasionally saves lives in general, and (possibly) saved a life in this specific situation. I would say that defending this as a "good shoot" is a slippery slope that will lead to more cop killings in more ambiguous circumstances, but we're already at the bottom of that slope. The idea that we need cops to kill all the scary bad guys is (part of) how we got here.
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Apr 21, 2021 22:57
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Kalit posted:I've said this before, but I think the cop could have grabbed Bryant while she was running by him to the person she was going to stab. If he would have grabbed her and pinned her arms to her side, I think it would have been safe for both the officer and her. Instead, he took that time to draw his gun. Which, like I said before, was probably instinct due to training. However, I think that grabbing her safely would have been possible in this same context. No one should ever be grabbing someone with a knife, this is utterly moronic and the exact opposite of what every police force around the world trains it’s officers to do. Please for the love of your own safety, do not ever attempt to physically restrain someone who is wielding a knife.
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Apr 21, 2021 22:58
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Fister Roboto posted:I believe that cops should not be able to able to dispense extrajudicial executions, even if it occasionally saves lives in general, and (possibly) saved a life in this specific situation. I would say that defending this as a "good shoot" is a slippery slope that will lead to more cop killings in more ambiguous circumstances, but we're already at the bottom of that slope. The idea that we need cops to kill all the scary bad guys is (part of) how we got here. So you are one the people who thinks cops should let people kill other people?
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Apr 21, 2021 22:59
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willie_dee posted:So you are one the people who thinks cops should let people kill other people? No, I think that cops shouldn't be able to kill people. "Cops should let people kill other people" implies that they should do nothing at all.
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Apr 21, 2021 23:00
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The cop should have used verbal commands while he watched someone be murdered with a knife
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Apr 21, 2021 23:00
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Pepper spray and batons are on their belts. She had a knife.
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Apr 21, 2021 23:02
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I'm.sorry for just kramering in. Has it been addressed here or elsewhere what the chances are on an appeal on the Chauvin conviction? Will the conviction be safe?
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Apr 21, 2021 23:05
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Gumball Gumption posted:So do we know what tattoos were under that sleeve? I'm still expecting something that's going to make anyone defending this real embaressed. The thing is it doesn’t really matter, this could have been the most racist cop in the history of racist cops who was just creaming his pants at the chance to shoot a minority and yet his immediate actions in the video were not unreasonable because the girl was literally (LITERALLY) in the act of trying to stab the poo poo out of someone. Everything that led to that point is lovely and hosed up and awful, and burn garbage police departments to the ground and rebuild them from scratch with a totally different culture and mission, but this is a stupid hill to die on for that.
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Apr 21, 2021 23:07
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Fister Roboto posted:I believe that cops should not be able to able to dispense extrajudicial executions, even if it occasionally saves lives in general, and (possibly) saved a life in this specific situation. I would say that defending this as a "good shoot" is a slippery slope that will lead to more cop killings in more ambiguous circumstances, but we're already at the bottom of that slope. The idea that we need cops to kill all the scary bad guys is (part of) how we got here. So are you saying that it would have been better for the other girl to die instead of the assailant, yes?
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Apr 21, 2021 23:07
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AVeryLargeRadish posted:So are you saying that it would have been better for the other girl to die instead of the assailant, yes? No, I'm saying that the cop should not have killed the assailant.
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Apr 21, 2021 23:09
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NoDamage posted:Why not? I'm not judging this individual situation so much as questioning whether we should be training cops to immediately reach for their guns when there are innocent bystanders close by, compared to less lethal alternatives. This has been addressed within the last few pages multiple times, including with sourced statistics. Tasers are not reliable enough to be used as a response to imminent deadly force, especially when that deadly force is directed at a third party. They're not accurate, the barbs don't always penetrate clothing, the barbs sometimes don't penetrate clothing/penetrate enough to get the full effect, the physiological effect can vary by quite a bit from person to person based on a ton of factors, and if you have any of these problems you/the 3rd party is dead because you only get one shot. Tasers are part of the use of force continuum before lethal force, they are not a replacement for lethal force. It's not appropriate to use them in response to lethal force when there is no time to escalate to a lethal response if they fail.
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Apr 21, 2021 23:10
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idiotsavant posted:The thing is it doesn’t really matter, this could have been the most racist cop in the history of racist cops who was just creaming his pants at the chance to shoot a minority and yet his immediate actions in the video were not unreasonable because the girl was literally (LITERALLY) in the act of trying to stab the poo poo out of someone. You're infected with American cowboy logic if you think that was the proper way to stop her. He has pepper spray, he has a tazer, and he has a baton. He had many non-lethal options. Everything points to this being a dude looking for an excuse and he's being given one.
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Apr 21, 2021 23:10
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oldskool posted:I'm curious as to the source of these "Tasers are unreliable/not useful in these situations" arguments, because it seems to me tasers wouldn't be issued at all if they are rendered inert by their target being overly angry or wearing clothing. When it works it really works. Active self protection @ 8:10 tasering guy who just stabbed the police officer. Luckily no one dies. But if it doesn't work people can be in lethal situations. Active self protection tasering guy who was reported to be menacing people with a knife @1:38 NSFW guy gets shot and I think killed Tasered guy rolled off the taser prongs and managed to hold the female cop at knife point. Tasers are at least better than what was available before which was baton or gun. Now there is another less lethal tool available so cops don't have to go up to gun straight away.
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Apr 21, 2021 23:10
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Lord Stimperor posted:I'm.sorry for just kramering in. There's been a few lawyer types on Twitter, including Popehat, who say that his chances are "LOLno".
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Apr 21, 2021 23:13
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