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Eeepies posted:For what's its worth, if I was showed the video, told that it was 100% unedited and genuine, and asked to judge the cop guilty or not guilty based on the video alone, I would acquit. I would hate it but i would acquit. depends on the charges but yeah same sadly. the whole thing is depressing.
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Apr 22, 2021 19:50
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wonderful that it took a single guilty verdict for the milquetoast libs to go back to their "erm acktchually its ok for cops to murder people" stances eat poo poo (USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST) (USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST)
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Apr 22, 2021 19:51
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Eeepies posted:For what's its worth, if I was showed the video, told that it was 100% unedited and genuine, and asked to judge the cop guilty or not guilty based on the video alone, I would acquit. I would hate it but i would acquit. Yes. It does get easy to judge something if you narrow your view. It would be a sham of a trial if that was the only evidence but it would be an easy one. Thank god no one needs to say it was a good extrajudicial killing on such little information.
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Apr 22, 2021 19:55
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I really do feel like there is a missing component here in this case. Something just doesn't sit right with me. Why is the girl who called the police the one with knife who ends up getting shot? Why does it take the police so long to respond to an active knife fight? Something just feels off about all of it to me. I am waiting for more evidence, because I feel like something big is being hidden in all of this.
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Apr 22, 2021 19:59
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Gumball Gumption posted:Yes. It does get easy to judge something if you narrow your view. It would be a sham of a trial if that was the only evidence but it would be an easy one. well id also probably wait to see other evidence but like the video makes it clear what the cop saw and reacted to at the time of his arival and you can hear from the call he got that he didn't really get much details. the issue is systemic failings and clearly failure in dispatch and reporting and such. that and the fact that Bryant loving died too makes it a tragedy. when more evidence and such comes out. we will see. i don't think this is going to trial at this point anyway. TulliusCicero posted:I really do feel like there is a missing component here in this case. Something just doesn't sit right with me. i assumed girl in pink was one of the people who called the cops since she is clearly walking over to the cop and starting to say stuff before the whole thing goes to hell. i think a couple people in the situation called the cops and probably a neighbor. Dapper_Swindler fucked around with this message at 20:02 on Apr 22, 2021 |
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Apr 22, 2021 19:59
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Even if I believed beyond a shadow of a doubt that this was a "good shoot" (which I absolutely do not), I would keep my mouth shut about it. If you consider yourself in favor of fixing or abolishing the police, then you should probably do the same. All you're doing is providing rationalization for other more dubious police murders. You do not, under any circumstance, have to hand it to them.
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Apr 22, 2021 20:03
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Fister Roboto posted:How do you expect things to change for the better without an adversarial attitude towards the people responsible for keeping things bad? You can't just ask your oppressor to pretty please take the boot off your neck. Should that adversarial attitude be taken to the point of denying reality and lying to yourself or others to demonize the bad guys further? Because that's what I saw as the point of Terebus's post, not that one should completely eschew an adversarial view of one's enemies, but that one should stick to the truth as best as one can discern it and avoid lying to others or yourself.
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Apr 22, 2021 20:20
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If people analyzing multiple videos frame by frame cannot differentiate between a stab attempt and a stumble, how is an officer who has been on the scene for seven seconds and does not have eyes that can rewind time supposed to make that distinction more accurately? Edit: to be clear, ACAB and this situation was avoidable in many ways. I am still not confident I would have handled it better than this cop did, but there are many reasons I am not a cop. Cabbages and VHS fucked around with this message at 20:25 on Apr 22, 2021 |
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Apr 22, 2021 20:23
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AVeryLargeRadish posted:Should that adversarial attitude be taken to the point of denying reality and lying to yourself or others to demonize the bad guys further? Because that's what I saw as the point of Terebus's post, not that one should completely eschew an adversarial view of one's enemies, but that one should stick to the truth as best as one can discern it and avoid lying to others or yourself. I don't see anyone denying reality in this thread. I see Terebus's post as trying to police(heh) the tone of rhetoric about cops that has moved past the level they are comfortable. There's a reason there's a lot of discussion about the cops in this thread about a specific incident and almost no posts in the thread that goes heavily into the facts about police, which are very bad. Cabbages and Kings posted:If people analyzing multiple videos frame by frame cannot differentiate between a stab attempt and a stumble, how is an officer who has been on the scene for seven seconds and does not have eyes that can rewind time supposed to make that distinction more accurately? My take is that the cop made a quick decision to draw and fire on black child because he doesn't value black lives and has a gun. That video may render his decision to the right one was probably just lucky for him. I will not "hand it to him". The police lost that lattitude many decades ago.
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Apr 22, 2021 20:31
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Cabbages and Kings posted:If people analyzing multiple videos frame by frame cannot differentiate between a stab attempt and a stumble, how is an officer who has been on the scene for seven seconds and does not have eyes that can rewind time supposed to make that distinction more accurately? That sounds like an argument that he shouldn't have shot, no?
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Apr 22, 2021 20:32
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raminasi posted:That sounds like an argument that he shouldn't have shot, no? A person about to face a knife to the face is not required to confirm the intentions 100% before receiving the right to self defence. It’s considered ”reasonable” that they expect it to be fatal or dangerous to life, limb, or eyesight.
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Apr 22, 2021 20:34
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Vahakyla posted:A person about to face a knife to the face is not required to confirm the intentions 100% before receiving the right to self defence. It’s considered ”reasonable” that they expect it to be fatal or dangerous to life, limb, or eyesight. by this logic they should be allowed to shoot anyone, because you can't prove a negative of 'well prove it 100% WON'T be dangerous'. Oh wait, that's exactly how it works and is the problem.
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Apr 22, 2021 20:55
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Cabbages and Kings posted:If people analyzing multiple videos frame by frame cannot differentiate between a stab attempt and a stumble, how is an officer who has been on the scene for seven seconds and does not have eyes that can rewind time supposed to make that distinction more accurately? TBH, I think the posters who are claiming it's a stumble are only saying that because a cop is involved. I asked about footage after that where the two people who Bryant went after told officers the she was coming after them/trying to stab them. One of the posters still denied it saying that the person in pink was fed information and just repeated it. Even though the person in pink first said Bryant was coming after her to the officer. Even watching it real time, you can tell she's purposely heading that direction and even stops to move her arm back. Kalit fucked around with this message at 21:19 on Apr 22, 2021 |
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Apr 22, 2021 21:04
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sexpig by night posted:by this logic they should be allowed to shoot anyone, because you can't prove a negative of 'well prove it 100% WON'T be dangerous'. I wonder if you'd look at a knife swinging at your daughter, and maintain this attitude? Legit question. I will hazard a guess and say most people think that a knife towards their throat or neck is lethal force, and you don't have to be a bootlicker to think that, because it doesn't matter if it is a cop or not, most people would use self defence to protect themselves or others from knife wielding people who swing at them. Vahakyla fucked around with this message at 21:09 on Apr 22, 2021 |
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Apr 22, 2021 21:06
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Vahakyla posted:I wonder if you'd look at a knife swinging at your daughter, and maintain this attitude? Legit question. What if your daughter was the one swinging the knife? Would you be OK with a cop filling her with bullets? These hypotheticals are completely pointless. Anyone can up with some other bullshit, it doesn't change what actually happened.
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Apr 22, 2021 21:12
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Fister Roboto posted:What if your daughter was the one swinging the knife? Would you be OK with a cop filling her with bullets? The poster is pretty much positing that there’s no fundamental right to self defence.
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Apr 22, 2021 21:14
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There's a reason we dont let the victims of crime decide on the punishment of the accused and going "oh yeah, what if someone was coming at you with a knife" is the same kind of fear mongering designed to provoke emotional responses that get used any time a poc is shot, "well wait if he was charging at you?"
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Apr 22, 2021 21:15
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Jaxyon posted:I don't see anyone denying reality in this thread. Eh; it gets close. For example, I see one poster saying: Fister Roboto posted:Even if I believed beyond a shadow of a doubt that this was a "good shoot" (which I absolutely do not), I would keep my mouth shut about it. If you consider yourself in favor of fixing or abolishing the police, then you should probably do the same. All you're doing is providing rationalization for other more dubious police murders. Which I guess isn't outright denying reality, but is pretty much saying you should never be admit inconvenient realities.
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Apr 22, 2021 21:16
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Vahakyla posted:I wonder if you'd look at a knife swinging at your daughter, and maintain this attitude? Legit question. what if we were on mars and the only way to save an orphan's life was to say the n-word then you'd be a monster not doing it! gently caress hypotheticals, we have a video, this isn't hypothetical, and buying into the 'well he couldn't 100% be certain he WASN'T in danger...' framing is literally how we wound up with such a violent and trigger happy police force. What's the point of all these stupid nonlethal toys we keep buying cops if their go-to remains 'I'm slightly spooked, time to empty my clip in a kid'.
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Apr 22, 2021 21:21
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sexpig by night posted:what if we were on mars and the only way to save an orphan's life was to say the n-word then you'd be a monster not doing it! There’s no hypothetical? The other girl is literally about to bite it. The video shows a knife headed to a face/throat. We don’t have to argue if this is about to happen or not? The video shows it. What’s this gaslighting of it is a real thing that exists or not? There are no cop lovers in this thread. Some are simply saying they don’t think the cop is committing murder. Vahakyla fucked around with this message at 21:25 on Apr 22, 2021 |
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Apr 22, 2021 21:22
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Aegis posted:Eh; it gets close. For example, I see one poster saying: It doesn't say that at all actually. GreyjoyBastard posted:stop strawmanning other goons
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Apr 22, 2021 21:22
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Vahakyla posted:There’s no hypothetical? you're the one who turned it to 'well what if it was your daughter in the cop's position', which completely changes the event, stop with this faux victim 'ARE YOU GASLIGHTING ME???' bullshit when you're the one who went to Rush Limbaugh's favorite 'ah you think a cop was bad? well what if your child was being raped and murdered then you'd like cops wouldn't you???' rhetoric to justify this poo poo.
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Apr 22, 2021 21:25
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Jaxyon posted:It doesn't say that at all actually. I reread the quote several times and quoted the OP in full, so I stand by my interpretation. If the OP thinks I misunderstood them, they are free to say so and explain themselves further.
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Apr 22, 2021 21:26
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Vahakyla posted:There’s no hypothetical? The other girl is literally about to bite it. The cop is committing murder, the question is are the circumstances sufficient to justify it. The video evidence presents one narrative. The full story from all the witnesses is going to go a long way in what the actual context was versus what the cop saw in 7 seconds.
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Apr 22, 2021 21:27
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Aegis posted:I reread the quote several times and quoted the OP in full, so I stand by my interpretation. If the OP thinks I misunderstood them, they are free to say so and explain themselves further. Yes, I understand that you will refuse to interpret in any other way, that's what a strawman is.
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Apr 22, 2021 21:27
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Jaxyon posted:Yes, I understand that you will refuse to interpret in any other way, that's what a strawman is. What are the other interpretations?
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Apr 22, 2021 21:29
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Jaxyon posted:Yes, I understand that you will refuse to interpret in any other way, that's what a strawman is. If you care to provide an alternative interpretation, I'm all ears.
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Apr 22, 2021 21:29
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Aegis posted:Eh; it gets close. For example, I see one poster saying: Withholding your personal opinion about something is not denying reality. There is absolutely no reason for so many posters to be letting everyone know that they think this was a "good shoot". It's disgusting and accomplishes nothing except further justifying the police state. Maybe this is "posting about posters", and I'll gladly take a probe for it because I'm starting to get too heated for this. But I am absolutely aghast at how many liberals and progressives seem to be saying "actually, it was OK for cops to murder a black person this time".
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Apr 22, 2021 21:29
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Vahakyla posted:There’s no hypothetical? The other girl is literally about to bite it. also this is murder, you can call it justified murder or argue it's a lesser form of murder but to say you 'don't think the cop is committing murder' implies the cop actually didn't meant to kill someone by shooting them
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Apr 22, 2021 21:31
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Vahakyla posted:A person about to face a knife to the face is not required to confirm the intentions 100% before receiving the right to self defence. It’s considered ”reasonable” that they expect it to be fatal or dangerous to life, limb, or eyesight. This was not self defense this was a state actor killing without full understanding of what was happening. Why is a police officer shooting a private citizen to death better than a private citizen stabbing another private citizen to death? Absurd question, right? They’re both bad. But surely you understand why a state sanctioned officer of the law showing up and immediately mowing down a child is contentious. This wasn’t “reasonable” by the terms you’re suggesting misadventurous fucked around with this message at 21:35 on Apr 22, 2021 |
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Apr 22, 2021 21:32
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misadventurous posted:This was not self defense this was a state actor killing without full understanding of what was happening. Why is a police officer shooting a private citizen to death better than a private citizen stabbing another private citizen to death? Absurd question, right? They’re both bad. But surely you understand why a state sanctioned officer of the law showing up and immediately mowing down a child is contentious. This wasn’t “reasonable” by the terms you’re suggesting This is one of the least contentious police shooting cases in recent memory, the officer arrived, immediately he witnessed the suspect attack two people with deadly force, and he fired at her to prevent her from doing grievous bodily harm to anyone. If you refuse to watch the actual video of the evidence because you know it'll destroy your argument then you don't belong in the discussion.
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Apr 22, 2021 21:41
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Cage Kicker posted:This is one of the least contentious police shooting cases in recent memory, the officer arrived, immediately he witnessed the suspect attack two people with deadly force, and he fired at her to prevent her from doing grievous bodily harm to anyone. If you refuse to watch the actual video of the evidence because you know it'll destroy your argument then you don't belong in the discussion. why didn't he use a stun gun or pepper spray or something from the constantly revolving arsenal of non-lethal (or less than lethal since those wind up killing plenty too) tools we keep having to buy these loving people
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Apr 22, 2021 21:44
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pentyne posted:The cop is committing murder, the question is are the circumstances sufficient to justify it. sexpig by night posted:also this is murder, you can call it justified murder or argue it's a lesser form of murder but to say you 'don't think the cop is committing murder' implies the cop actually didn't meant to kill someone by shooting them This isn't what "murder" means. Maybe you guys meant "homicide."
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Apr 22, 2021 21:45
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vessbot posted:This isn't what "murder" means. Maybe you guys meant "homicide." If we're getting technical it's "pedicide"
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Apr 22, 2021 21:48
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misadventurous posted:This was not self defense this was a state actor killing without full understanding of what was happening. Why is a police officer shooting a private citizen to death better than a private citizen stabbing another private citizen to death? Absurd question, right? They’re both bad. But surely you understand why a state sanctioned officer of the law showing up and immediately mowing down a child is contentious. This wasn’t “reasonable” by the terms you’re suggesting Generally self defense also covers defending another person's life. sexpig by night posted:why didn't he use a stun gun or pepper spray or something from the constantly revolving arsenal of non-lethal (or less than lethal since those wind up killing plenty too) tools we keep having to buy these loving people Because pepper spray and tasers are ineffective in the circumstance shown in the video, might as well just let Ma'Khia stab the other girl and just clean up once she's done.
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Apr 22, 2021 21:53
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Cage Kicker posted:This is one of the least contentious police shooting cases in recent memory, the officer arrived, immediately he witnessed the suspect attack two people with deadly force, and he fired at her to prevent her from doing grievous bodily harm to anyone. If you refuse to watch the actual video of the evidence because you know it'll destroy your argument then you don't belong in the discussion. we love our judgececutioners efficiently doling out justice, folks
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Apr 22, 2021 21:54
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Gonna sum up my thoughts on this because there's too many posts to quote. Policing in the US has a long and terrible history of abuse of minorities and a major lack of oversight. At the same time the police force is an essential part of a well functioning society, so the right path forward is to ensure that all police officers in the US are better trained and are being regulated by an independent public body. There's lots of details here like ensuring that all police have body cams and are better trained with firearms, we can go into these details but it seems like there's plenty of posters in here that think abolishing the police is a good idea. I haven't heard of any society that works without policing and I'd love to live in that utopian ideal, but we're nowhere near that as a species. For anyone that's reading my posts and think I'm pro police or that I would defend the actions of officers like Derek Chauvin, gently caress you. I believe murderers, especially those in positions of power, should be prosecuted to the full extent of the law, and get harsher sentences than the general public. In regards to dealing with American police as a monolithic entity, which is silly because that's not how police orgs in the US operate, I think its beyond useless to treat them all as racist monsters because that's just simply not true. The majority of police incidents in the US end without people dying, and I would argue that a majority of them are required for the regular functioning of society, for example handling traffic incidents, dealing with petty crimes and violent interactions. There's way too many instances of police abusing their power, but the general public is just as idiotic as a regular police officer, and there's definitely times when a relatively independent third party is required to step into a situation to resolve it in the least disruptive manner possible. That's not what police do in all situations, but there are many where that is the case, and we don't hear about them because it's just what's expected of a functioning law enforcement organization. In regards to this incident, I haven't seen any of the posters that are saying the shooting was unjust respond to some important questions. Would you have preferred the girl in the pink get stabbed instead of the officer shooting Ma'Khia? What would your reaction to the situation be if the pink girl got stabbed and died? My entire stance is based on what the other possibilities in this situation were. In this case, we have about a 7-8 second window to react to a violent and fast situation, where the victim is falling onto the hood of a car because her attacker is pushing her with her body while brandishing a knife and making a stabbing motion. I wouldn't take the risk of letting an unarmed person getting stabbed in this instance, and I think the officer was right to shoot Ma'Khia. It's tragic and awful that that's what the incident led to, but there weren't any good options after that point. On an individual level, there should be resources available for all the people involved in this incident to deal with it mentally, and there should be a full investigation that looks into the actions of the police. One of the most critical portions of policing that feels like its completely overlooked is victims services. Resources for people that were the victims of crimes, especially violent ones, should be easily accessible and free. I think that will go a long way to a more equitable and fair society. On a larger level things like avenues for police officers to report misconduct by their colleagues anonymously would do wonders, as well as better training, hiring more officers from within the community that is being policed, and increasing non-confrontational police presence like foot patrols. Finally the reason I'm being as "pedantic" is because misinformation on the internet is a plague that needs to be actively fought against. As a society we need to come to a consensus of what the truth of a situation is to be able to respond in the best way possible. It's pretty obvious that we need to ensure that the information we share is a correct representation of reality, not the version of a story that works best for a particular ideology. If I see something that looks factually incorrect, I'm going to call it out, because having a distorted view of a situation won't lead to changes that prevent that situation from happening. EDIT: gently caress yeah! New AV! I'm glad I triggered someone so hard that they decided to donate to the forums! Thanks! Terebus fucked around with this message at 22:02 on Apr 22, 2021 |
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Apr 22, 2021 21:58
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I think the problem is that the officer drew his gun too early, so that by the time the girl was swinging the knife, there was no other way for him to put a stop to it in a short amount of time. He wasn't alone at the scene, but I don't know if he was the first one there or not, but at least two other police are in the frame shortly after he fires. Had he not drawn so early, he and the other officers could have run in and pulled her off, but it may have also been too late for the woman who may have gotten stabbed. Things also looked to be deteriorating really quickly from the camera's point of view.
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Apr 22, 2021 21:58
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AVeryLargeRadish posted:Because pepper spray and tasers are ineffective in the circumstance shown in the video, might as well just let Ma'Khia stab the other girl and just clean up once she's done. One (of the many) things that makes this conversation hard is that he probably didn't use a gun because of that analysis, even though that analysis does support using one. He probably used the gun because cops are trained (implicitly, if not explicitly) to use their guns whenever they're stressed or freaked out or in any kind of choatic situation, especially one involving primarily black people.
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Apr 22, 2021 21:58
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For me this is pretty clear cut: the cop should not have shot Ma’Khia Bryant because cops should not be allowed to carry guns, period. They gave up that right a long time ago after the last hundred or so times they murdered unarmed black people. They don’t get the benefit of the doubt.Terebus posted:For anyone that's reading my posts and think I'm pro police ... gently caress you. Like two sentences up from this you said “the police force is an essential part of a well functioning society”
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Apr 22, 2021 22:07
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