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At 4:30 PM on April 20th, 2021, 911 in Columbus Ohio received a call from Ma'Khia Bryant, reporting that other, older girls at her foster home were trying to "stab them and put their hands on them". Officer Nicholas Reardon arrived at the scene 14 minutes after the call was placed. Per NPR, linked above:The last moments of Ma'Khia's life posted:Body camera footage shows an officer getting out of his patrol car as he responds to a commotion on the driveway of a home.
https://twitter.com/_WhatRiot/status/1384672602921209861 Conversation began on this in the Derek Chauvin Trial Thread, on page 18. In the interests of allowing that thread to remain focused on the trial and, now that verdicts have been returned, the sentencing and appeals process, I've spun this off to its own thread. This is not a killing that reacts well to snap reactions based on priors. Unlike most police killings, this one is at least in part motivated by protecting other members of the public rather than the shooter and their fellow officers. On the other hand, reports are that Ma'Khia Bryant called the police out of a fear for her safety and any assertion that she would have attacked and assaulted the responding officer had he attempted a less-lethal intervention plays on a welltrod and ugly history of narratives about unhinged, mindless rage and supernatural strength of Black youth in interaction with police (ex. Michael Brown) and wannabes (ex. Trayvon Martin) A few guidelines that I ask for this thread! First and foremost: GreyjoyBastard posted:stop strawmanning other goons Second: Her name was Ma'Khia Bryant. It is in the title of this thread, so I can assure you it is on every loving page you post on. When you refer to her, do it by her name. When you use her name, it is neither cute nor funny to misspell it because  wacky names or whatever the gently caress your other reasoning may be. It is on every page. There is no excuse for misspelling it.Third: To reiterate- GreyjoyBastard posted:stop strawmanning other goons Somebody fucked around with this message at 04:05 on Apr 22, 2021 |
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Apr 22, 2021 00:34
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Crossposting from the other thread:Paracaidas posted:
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Apr 22, 2021 00:35
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), in which multiple posters have determined that her actions while in fear for her life justify her death at the hands of the officer, I'm not inclined give a lot of credence to the same arguments we heard Nelson give in defense of Chauvin in the preceding days.
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yeah as i said in the other thread, you can see the foster dad kicking the girl who gets knocked down by Ma'Khia before she attacked Pink jacket. so that brings up a ton of questions.
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Apr 22, 2021 00:42
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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k0YZ38XAZyQ trigger warning bodycam video of the incident contains violence
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Apr 22, 2021 00:44
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I haven't found a lot of background on the cop Reardon but it looks like they scrubbed social media and his background is sure checking a lot of boxes for being a shithead.
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Apr 22, 2021 00:56
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Terminal autist posted:I haven't found a lot of background on the cop Reardon but it looks like they scrubbed social media and his background is sure checking a lot of boxes for being a shithead. oh i am sure he is. dude is a cop after all.
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Apr 22, 2021 01:00
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Cage Kicker posted:https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k0YZ38XAZyQ trigger warning bodycam video of the incident contains violence Is Ma'khia saying 'Im going to stab you fucker' while going for the first person?
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Apr 22, 2021 01:04
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happyhippy posted:Is Ma'khia saying 'Im going to stab you fucker' while going for the first person? It's indistinct on my speakers. I heard something more like "Shut the gently caress up!"
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Apr 22, 2021 01:07
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RIP Ma'Khia, it is awful what happened to her. Lots of people and organisations have clearly failed her. From her parents, foster parents (who were weirdly more concerned with kicking another girls home was on the floor in the head despite police arriving and Ma'Khia trying to stab people), social services, mental health and medical teams and the police as an organisation. Sadly the officer clearly had no other choice. In the other thread we had goons with a clear lack of understanding or any experience with physical combat, never mind with someone with a knife, arguing the officer had other options. He did not. Weirdly some of the people arguing that the officer should of done something else were also the same people refusing to watch the video of the event itself. How someone can criticise someone for something they actively were involved in when they can’t even bring themselves to watch a video of it is beyond me. Tasers are massively unreliable. Entering into combat with someone with a knife be it with restraint techniques or with a baton and pepper spray is suicide and asking for a disaster. Ma'Khia is mid stab to someones throat as the shots are fired, knives are a deadly weapon and the officer had no choice but to use deadly force to prevent Ma'Khia killing someone else. In the previous thread we had goons argue that cops should let people kill people because it’s better that Ma'Khia kills someone rather than a cop kill her, this is utter madness in my opinion and I genuinely do not understand the logic. To the people who expect cops to be super hero’s I have said I will gladly set up a demonstration for them. It’s a wildly common demonstration of how utterly suicidal it is to engage with someone with a knife. You replace the knife with a sharpie. If you get ink on you, that represents a probable serious or deadly injury. I will attempt to get marker pen on a 3rd party, then on you. You can use what ever realistic alternative it is you think will stop me. Verbal commands: everyone’s ending up covered in ink. Baton, pepper spray, grappling, everyone’s ending up covered in ink. Taser, might work, you going to take that chance? The officer decided against it and I fully agree with his logic. From the video, with how mid stab Ma'Khia was, it’s clear a taser would of taken longer to draw and charge before being fired, and even if it did connect, which you would hope, what’s to say her victim wouldn’t of ended up dead, as the taser might not have stopped the momentum of Ma'Khia and her being mid stab. This isn’t me trying to be tough, this is a common and easy to understand demonstration of how silly it is to engage with someone physically with a knife, and how movies and tv represent combat in an utterly unrealistic and unreasonable way meaning people then have utterly bizarre expectations of how they would fare when dealing with someone with a knife. It is awful that the officer was placed into the situation that he was, but his actions were clearly and obvious to anyone who has been involved in physical combat, the only correct option to most likely prevent Ma'Khia stabbing the girl she was lunging at with a knife that she was aiming at her victims head/neck whilst she was pinned against a car holding a dog.
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Apr 22, 2021 01:08
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Yeah just about the only word you can clearly make out is gently caress, I think.
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Apr 22, 2021 01:08
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I am sorry but I reject the "sharpie test" as absolutely bullshit killology-level thinking. I understand that a knife is a deadly weapon but it doesn't just rip through someone's body like a gun going off does. People, very often women, pick up knives all the time to try to defend themselves. Being able to cover someone in ink is only relevant if they are attempting to slash or stab at you. If you want to argue that this girl was an aggressor and an imminent danger to others in this situation then do that, but the idea that the only option for someone moving with a knife is to put them down is wild. Where was the knife when she pushed over the other girl seconds before her death? You can't really see, but I imagine it was already in her hand? So if the cop had shot her seconds before shoving the other girl, would people still be saying that she was about to stab someone? What is the point of massive police funding if it is impossible to take on someone with a knife without deadly force? God forbid cops invest in stab-resistant clothing and gloves instead of higher powered weapons. I do understand that this might be not be the best example of inappropriate police force if it turns out she absolutely was trying to stab that girl and the cop saved a life. Maybe I am arguing against a "good shoot," as they love to call it. But I think it still starkly highlights how often deadly force pops up as an immediate option with US police compared to others. A black kid got shot 10 seconds after the cops showed up so forgive me for being critical of the police. There were no knife injuries in the preceding moments. There aren't many details in this story, but here's another teenage kid with a knife who didn't die. https://www.ktvb.com/article/news/c...n=snd-autopilot quote:BPD says one officer suffered a cut to the hand while taking the juvenile into custody. Maybe this cop was almost killed by a kid with a knife and he's a moron. Maybe it was a kid going through the worst day of his life and doing something immensely stupid and this cop took an appropriate risk in intervening. He would have failed the sharpie test though.
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Apr 22, 2021 01:15
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Hard body armor should be pretty stab resistant. We're not living in the days of kevlar under blues.
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Apr 22, 2021 01:16
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willie_dee posted:sharpies kindly please shut the gently caress up about your pet metaphor. you sound like some youtube self-defense crank.
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Apr 22, 2021 01:19
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Ror posted:What is the point of massive police funding if it is impossible to take on someone with a knife without deadly force? God forbid cops invest in stab-resistant clothing and gloves instead of higher powered weapons.
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Apr 22, 2021 01:22
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Famethrowa posted:kindly please shut the gently caress up about your pet metaphor. you sound like some youtube self-defense crank. Funnily enough the test has been bought about to show how daft a lot of these you tube self defence nerds are.
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Apr 22, 2021 01:24
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I said it in the other thread, but I'd like to reiterate it here: I think everyone's focusing too much on the exact second where the decision was made to fire or not fire the gun. I don't think it's clear-cut in either direction, but what we do know is: there was an ongoing situation and now someone is dead. Many things led to that point, not simply the single decision of the officer to fire his gun. I want to know what those things were, all the way back to "how did these people involved know each other? What did or did not happen between them in the past, both before the officer was on-scene in this particular incident and days/weeks/months before?" What could've been done differently so we don't have to debate the precise moral calculation of a cop shooting a teenager who he thought was about to kill someone? That's what I want to know.
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Apr 22, 2021 01:25
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PT6A posted:I said it in the other thread, but I'd like to reiterate it here: I think everyone's focusing too much on the exact second where the decision was made to fire or not fire the gun. I don't think it's clear-cut in either direction, but what we do know is: there was an ongoing situation and now someone is dead. Many things led to that point, not simply the single decision of the officer to fire his gun. I want to know what those things were, all the way back to "how did these people involved know each other? What did or did not happen between them in the past, both before the officer was on-scene in this particular incident and days/weeks/months before?" Agreed. Many an institution and service failed Ma'Khia, including the police I imagine from the sounds of the time it took for them to arrive and what little knowledge they had of what it was they were walking into.
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Apr 22, 2021 01:27
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reignonyourparade posted:It is possible to take on someone with a knife without deadly force. This is generally more the case for situations of "threatening to use the knife" than it is "in the middle of the act of stabbing someone with the knife," and in all honesty cops are prone to just shooting the person but regardless we aren't really talking about that situation here, we're talking about the "in the middle of the act of stabbing someone with the knife" situation. If we look at other countries, and how their police officers handle knife attacks, generally armed officers would kill the person who was mid stab. Take away the mid stab situation, and they just have a knife and are making threats but are not an immediate threat to anyone, then distance, verbal commands and non lethal methods can be tried to end the situation. In the USA, it definitely seems like the answer is roll up and get out guns blazing be there an immediate threat or not. Sadly Ma'Khia posed one.
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Apr 22, 2021 01:30
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Ror posted:Where was the knife when she pushed over the other girl seconds before her death? You can't really see, but I imagine it was already in her hand? She had it in her hand since the start. You can see it in her hand at 1:32 in the video posted above, its very dull grey color when she is taking her first swing at the first lady. As she fell in front of the cop, I can only assume he saw more of the knife, out of shot of the body cam. And you can see the knife clearly at 1:38, its reflecting light more to the camera.
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Apr 22, 2021 01:31
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willie_dee posted:Funnily enough the test has been bought about to show how daft a lot of these you tube self defence nerds are. Actually I think you're just arguing against strawmen. You claimed: willie_dee posted:We’ve had posters claiming knives aren’t dangerous. Could you identify one? And determine if it's more prevalent than one person? Because what I've seen is most people in these 2 threads are aware that knives are dangerous but are mostly annoyed at you because you seem to think that you're the only person who's ever heard of a Teuller drill and can't shut up about it. Yes knives suck. You can put the sharpie down.
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Apr 22, 2021 01:35
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Jaxyon posted:Actually I think you're just arguing against strawmen. We had a string of posters arguing that, to the point where a mod stepped in and called them idiots and told them to stop, and then probated one for continuing to argue that they had a knife that wasn’t sharp so actually knives aren’t all deadly so therefore the officer was wrong, or I think that was their point? I don’t know. Because they got probated before I could question their logic.
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Apr 22, 2021 01:37
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I'm still not sure why we all suddenly believe in the legitimacy of the police as an institution. The presence of sneering armed white supremacists yelling BLUE LIVES MATTER in a community of color is inexcusable entirely regardless of their actions. No good can come from an illegitimate occupying force, there's no excuses for this, period. Everyone here claiming to be an abolitionist while arguing weapons and tactics like they're in a cop drama has lost the plot.
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Apr 22, 2021 01:43
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How do police in other countries respond to knives? Like maybe in the UK or other places where most cops don't carry guns? Surely there are effective ways of handling someone wielding a knife that don't involve shooting them. I think this is a much broader issue than how this particular officer responded.
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Apr 22, 2021 01:44
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Fritz the Horse posted:How do police in other countries respond to knives? Like maybe in the UK or other places where most cops don't carry guns? Surely there are effective ways of handling someone wielding a knife that don't involve shooting them. There are effective ways of handling someone wielding a knife that don't involve shooting them. There are not effective ways of handling someone who is actively stabbing someone that don't involve shooting them.
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Apr 22, 2021 01:46
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willie_dee posted:We had a string of posters arguing that, to the point where a mod stepped in and called them idiots and told them to stop, and then probated one for continuing to argue that they had a knife that wasn’t sharp so actually knives aren’t all deadly so therefore the officer was wrong, or I think that was their point? I don’t know. Because they got probated before I could question their logic. Oh you mean the one guy who got probated with a comic panel as the probation reason who was saying there's a possibility the knife was dull? That doesn't match at all with what you just said. Could you highlight the posts that match up with your timeline of events as described Because I can link you to the post where a mod/IK asked everyone in the thread to stop strawmannin everyone else. Fritz the Horse posted:How do police in other countries respond to knives? Like maybe in the UK or other places where most cops don't carry guns? Surely there are effective ways of handling someone wielding a knife that don't involve shooting them. I posted a video of a guy charging cops with a machete and he got taken in alive. Not sure if Sharpie guy responded to that.
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Apr 22, 2021 01:47
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reignonyourparade posted:There are effective ways of handling someone wielding a knife that don't involve shooting them. There are not effective ways of handling someone who is actively stabbing someone that don't involve shooting them. Knives predate firearms by hundreds of thousands of years.
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Apr 22, 2021 01:47
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Fritz the Horse posted:How do police in other countries respond to knives? Like maybe in the UK or other places where most cops don't carry guns? Surely there are effective ways of handling someone wielding a knife that don't involve shooting them. In the UK armed police would be sent in a situation like this and they would be authorized to use lethal force to prevent an imminent threat to life, which I think this would qualify as. There are ways of dealing with someone that is just standing there with a knife without lethal force but once people have started stabbing those don't work.
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Apr 22, 2021 01:53
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NovemberMike posted:In the UK armed police would be sent in a situation like this and they would be authorized to use lethal force to prevent an imminent threat to life, which I think this would qualify as. There are ways of dealing with someone that is just standing there with a knife without lethal force but once people have started stabbing those don't work. You had four grown men with plated vitals and clubs, they could've simply beaten her into submission while risking only superficial injury. The "you must only shoot" is if you accept no risk of personal injury.
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Apr 22, 2021 01:56
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I've watched the video a bunch of times and poo poo moves super quickly for all the strongly declarative statements being used here, and literally the people on the scene who were there for an hour thought the cop shouldn't have shot. Is there a super clear slowed down version of the video available that people are using? Kirios posted:I'm gonna be real with y'all, reading knives aren't that dangerous is easily one of the dumbest things I've ever read on this forum. You should be required to watch the video before commenting on whether the officer was in the right or not. I think the closest anyone got to saying that was the one guy who was like "it could possibly have been a dull blade". I don't know that anyone said knives aren't dangerous. Jaxyon fucked around with this message at 01:59 on Apr 22, 2021 |
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Apr 22, 2021 01:56
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I'm gonna be real with y'all, reading knives aren't that dangerous is easily one of the dumbest things I've ever read on this forum. You should be required to watch the video before commenting on whether the officer was in the right or not.
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Apr 22, 2021 01:57
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SchnorkIes posted:Everyone here claiming to be an abolitionist while arguing weapons and tactics like they're in a cop drama has lost the plot. It sounds like you're making people up. Who are you talking about ITT who also self-claimed to be a police abolitionist?
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Apr 22, 2021 01:58
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reignonyourparade posted:There are effective ways of handling someone wielding a knife that don't involve shooting them. There are not effective ways of handling someone who is actively stabbing someone that don't involve shooting them. NovemberMike posted:In the UK armed police would be sent in a situation like this and they would be authorized to use lethal force to prevent an imminent threat to life, which I think this would qualify as. There are ways of dealing with someone that is just standing there with a knife without lethal force but once people have started stabbing those don't work. Ok thanks. It seems pretty clear this is very different from the murder of George Floyd which is what Ma'Khia Bryant's death was being compared to on Twitter yesterday. I think I'm going to try to avoid reaching a judgment on the cop's actions until the full details are out. Other than it's a tragedy.
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Apr 22, 2021 01:58
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Kirios posted:I'm gonna be real with y'all, reading knives aren't that dangerous is easily one of the dumbest things I've ever read on this forum. You should be required to watch the video before commenting on whether the officer was in the right or not. I have watched the video dozens of times and didn't see anything four armored men with clubs couldn't handle. A child is not a trained terrorist or whatever the fantasy is here. Before the gun was invented, four plate armored men with 3 foot clubs would not have just given up at the sight of a child with a kitchen knife.
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Apr 22, 2021 02:00
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Should cops always shoot someone who is charging them with a knife? Arguably, no. They've accepted an elevated amount of risk as a part of holding the job. The calculus changes when they consider whether to use deadly force in response to the imminent threat of death directed against another person, who has not accepted that risk, does not have training, and does not have protective equipment. I'm not saying the cop was justified. I think we can't possibly know that based on what's publicly available at this point. But I also can't say the cop was definitely not justified. I think we need to focus on what we do know: a girl is dead, and that should not have happened. Something hosed up, and there were many events that led to the moment in time where a life-and-death decision was made. We need to examine and understand that full causal chain to know how we can prevent this from ever happening again, because regardless of whether the officer was morally or legally justified in taking that shot at the exact moment he did so -- knowing only what he did at the time -- we can't have more dead children. Even if the officer made the right choice in that precise moment to draw his gun and fire, based on his training and everything he knew at that moment, we cannot accept this situation or its result.
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Apr 22, 2021 02:00
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Jaxyon posted:Is there a super clear slowed down version of the video available that people are using? They replayed it in slow motion during the press release. The full speed viewing didn’t change my mind because it was too fast to make out, but the slowmo version was clear enough to change my opinion on the matter.
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Apr 22, 2021 02:02
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SchnorkIes posted:I have watched the video dozens of times and didn't see anything four armored men with clubs couldn't handle. A child is not a trained terrorist or whatever the fantasy is here. Before the gun was invented, four plate armored men with 3 foot clubs would not have just given up at the sight of a child with a kitchen knife. Were there four armored men with clubs here? I don't recall hearing about that...
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Apr 22, 2021 02:08
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Jaxyon posted:I've watched the video a bunch of times and poo poo moves super quickly for all the strongly declarative statements being used here, and literally the people on the scene who were there for an hour thought the cop shouldn't have shot. Where are you getting an hour from? The NPR story linked in the OP says the call came in at 4:30 and the cops arrived at 4:44.
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Apr 22, 2021 02:10
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SchnorkIes posted:I have watched the video dozens of times and didn't see anything four armored men with clubs couldn't handle. A child is not a trained terrorist or whatever the fantasy is here. Before the gun was invented, four plate armored men with 3 foot clubs would not have just given up at the sight of a child with a kitchen knife. Four plate armored men with 3 foot clubs could've handled it sure, but the lady in pink would've gotten stabbed first. You might think that's "effective," I certainly don't.
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Apr 22, 2021 02:10
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NovemberMike posted:Were there four armored men with clubs here? I don't recall hearing about that... Four officers on scene, plates and clubs are standard issue almost everywhere because of the rifle threat?
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Apr 22, 2021 02:10
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SchnorkIes posted:I have watched the video dozens of times and didn't see anything four armored men with clubs couldn't handle. A child is not a trained terrorist or whatever the fantasy is here. Before the gun was invented, four plate armored men with 3 foot clubs would not have just given up at the sight of a child with a kitchen knife. Well actually, a small knife is a very serious threat to plate armor Wikipedia posted:the stiletto was used to finish off a fallen or severely wounded heavily armored opponent. The needle-like blade could, if used with sufficient force, penetrate most mail or find its way through gaps in a knight's plate armor, and was narrow enough to pass through the eye slits of the helmeted knight. The whole line of reasoning is pretty silly because reignonyourparade posted:Four plate armored men with 3 foot clubs could've handled it sure, but the lady in pink would've gotten stabbed first. You might think that's "effective," I certainly don't.
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Apr 22, 2021 02:12
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