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Should troll Fancy Pelosi be allowed to stay? This poll is closed. |
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Bootleg Trunks posted:I too have been smitten by bidens true leftism The first 3 points make him more like FDR than anything (If they were accurate)
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Apr 23, 2021 21:26
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Bootleg Trunks posted:
This is all a bunch of disingenuous bs but I want to highlight these two specifically: the "leave deadline" was something that Trump said he was going to do, so in order to make this argument you have to believe that Trump is more trustworthy than Joe Biden. Trump was never going to pull those troops, even if he didn't renege due because of his personality disorders, the big generals with tears in their eyes wouldve come to him and said "Sir we can't leave Afghanistan the people there love you they're using MAGA but for afghanistan". Biden has been a strong opponent of troop increases and extending our presence in Afghanistan since at least 2009. The DeJoy thing, I can't blame you for thinking that but this is an issue of union and internal Democratic politics that's hamstrung the admin on the topic.
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Apr 23, 2021 21:27
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mobby_6kl posted:I'm not sure this is a healthy way of looking at things. The SA forums motto.
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Apr 23, 2021 21:28
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It's only reasonable to strive for perfection if we understand that it can't be done instantly, and will never truly be achievable. Being glad for some positive change is not the same as being fully satisfied forever. Why is this apparently too nuanced to not argue about endlessly?
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Apr 23, 2021 21:28
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zoux posted:This is all a bunch of disingenuous bs but I want to highlight these two specifically: the "leave deadline" was something that Trump said he was going to do, so in order to make this argument you have to believe that Trump is more trustworthy than Joe Biden. Trump was never going to pull those troops, even if he didn't renege due because of his personality disorders, the big generals with tears in their eyes wouldve come to him and said "Sir we can't leave Afghanistan the people there love you they're using MAGA but for afghanistan". Biden has been a strong opponent of troop increases and extending our presence in Afghanistan since at least 2009. Lotta Trump hating leftists confused why Joe didn't appoint himself dictator and clean this place up!
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Apr 23, 2021 21:29
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Kalit posted:Why? These aren't mutually exclusive options. Either the argument that the poll means that people approve of Biden because they are satisfied but want him to do kore is accurate or people are willing to celebrate that enough has been done. I don't think the overlap between a celebrant and a protestor is the purple circle that's being implied. Raenir Salazar posted:This framing is disingenuous and is a result of begging the question. You claimed no one is satisfied with Biden, this is provably false. Go ahead and quote me where I said that.
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Apr 23, 2021 21:30
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zoux posted:This is all a bunch of disingenuous bs but I want to highlight these two specifically: the "leave deadline" was something that Trump said he was going to do, so in order to make this argument you have to believe that Trump is more trustworthy than Joe Biden. For this particular point, I think it's the sort of thing to give zero credence to any politician until the day it actually happens, and otherwise consider it a statement equivalent to "Wouldn't it be swell if we had the troops out by x date?" Through that lens, the date doesn't matter, they're all equally worthless. If Biden actually manages to pull troops out, then we've got something to talk about.
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Apr 23, 2021 21:33
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Tom cotton continues to be a dick https://twitter.com/JudiciaryDems/status/1382771742473601027?s=20
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Apr 23, 2021 21:34
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Sedisp posted:Either the argument that the poll means that people approve of Biden because they are satisfied but want him to do kore is accurate or people are willing to celebrate that enough has been done. I don't think the overlap between a celebrant and a protestor is the purple circle that's being implied. This is a false dichotomy. One can celebrate what's been done and the direction things are going but be unsatisfied if nothing else was done. Also one can be celebrating an individual change or accomplishment and approve of the job that has been done bringing it about, but be out in the streets protesting about something different that still needs to be changed. It's called not reducing the entire world to a binary judgement.
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Apr 23, 2021 21:34
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zoux posted:The DeJoy thing, I can't blame you for thinking that but this is an issue of union and internal Democratic politics that's hamstrung the admin on the topic. Uhhhhh so one unions president of the four came out in vague decorum poisoned brand support of dejoy. This isn't the admin being hamstrung by the unions as the three others are pretty unified in their disdain of dejoy. Im not certain NALCs rank and file is even in agreement.
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Apr 23, 2021 21:35
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CommieGIR posted:Tom cotton continues to be a dick So what? It's not like he was supporting them anyway right?
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Apr 23, 2021 21:36
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Dr. Arbitrary posted:For this particular point, I think it's the sort of thing to give zero credence to any politician until the day it actually happens, and otherwise consider it a statement equivalent to "Wouldn't it be swell if we had the troops out by x date?" That's fine, but to frame it as "Biden left troops in Afghanistan after Trump set a hard deadline for non-conditional withdrawal" is a straight up lie. Biden has committed to an unconditional withdrawal, we know he has a history of opposing the Obama admins Afghanistan policy and chose for his SecDef a man that is also an Afghanistan skeptic. Obviously, we'll have to see but if I was a betting man... Sedisp posted:Uhhhhh so one unions president of the four came out in vague decorum poisoned brand support of dejoy. This isn't the admin being hamstrung by the unions as the three others are pretty unified in their disdain of dejoy. Im not certain NALCs rank and file is even in agreement. No they aren't, but it's not as cut and dry as it seems. This Atlantic article has a bit more detail on the dynamic, if you're saying that the Biden admin should disregard all this stuff and fire the BoG anyway, well that's one tactic, but I don't think it's that simple - and I totally did before the Prospect got that NALC letter. zoux fucked around with this message at 21:42 on Apr 23, 2021 |
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Apr 23, 2021 21:36
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Sedisp posted:Either the argument that the poll means that people approve of Biden because they are satisfied but want him to do kore is accurate or people are willing to celebrate that enough has been done. I don't think the overlap between a celebrant and a protestor is the purple circle that's being implied. Huh? Your prior post left off the "enough has been done" part. Sedisp posted:So goons have simultaneously been arguing that there is still mass protests across the country because we aren't doing enough but also they are celebrating how great things are now. Pick one. I don't think anyone ITT has agreed with the statement that "enough has been done". You can be happy and celebrate that Biden is president while still pushing for change. I know a lot of people that have been out protesting these past few months and are happy that he's president (even though no one wanted him to win the primary), including myself. Those two things are not mutually exclusive. Kalit fucked around with this message at 21:43 on Apr 23, 2021 |
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Apr 23, 2021 21:39
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Joe Biden's presidency has gone beyond my wildest dreams. Granted, my wildest dreams consisted of "not setting any more fires," but he deserves SOME credit for pursuing a more progressive agenda than we've seen in recent Democrat presidents. This is not to say we can kick our feet up and be complacent, far from it. We need to pressure the Biden Administration when appropriate to push him further left (which, despite popular opinion this time last year, is possible) and reward them when they do good things. Gun to my head, I'd give the current White House occupant a B for his job, but we're not even 100 days into his administration so grades are just gut feelings right now.
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Apr 23, 2021 21:40
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Jarmak posted:. Okay then if you're going to celebrate and be satisfied with a temporary change that doesn't go far enough but think other things are to be protested I'm not sure how Josef Bugmans original framing was wrong.
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Apr 23, 2021 21:40
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serious question: why hasn't biden arrested dejoy as a threat to democracy? seems like that would solve this problem in about one second (USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST)
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Apr 23, 2021 21:41
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Bootleg Trunks posted:I too have been smitten by bidens true leftism You're absolutely right, there have also been numerous times since the campaign where Twitter leftists came out swinging with short, punchy, hyperbolic accusations which turn out to be big layers of bullshit wrapped around a real problem. And when you unwrap all the bullshit to see the real problem it's still worthy of criticism but you're mentally comparing it to the claim whether you really want to or not. I didn't leave that out because I forgot. I left it out for brevity. It keeps coming around to the usual rebuttal both to hopeful "Why don't we on the left rile people up like the far right does?" and fearful "Shouldn't we worry about the left getting their own Trump too?" It turns out just lying all the time to keep people loyal and scared doesn't work the same way on all targets.
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Apr 23, 2021 21:43
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zoux posted:The immense gap between youth voters and all other voting groups goes beyond just suppression, and it's been an issue since forever. Young people have never voted at comparable rates - due to their callowness! On these forums a majority of people were libertarian psychos when most of us in college (or college-age) so a majority being centrists is an improvement for society.
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Apr 23, 2021 21:43
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Owlspiracy posted:serious question: why hasn't biden arrested dejoy as a threat to democracy? seems like that would solve this problem in about one second VH4Ever posted:Lotta Trump hating leftists confused why Joe didn't appoint himself dictator and clean this place up! Like to congratulate VH4 on his near perfect timing
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Apr 23, 2021 21:47
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Rust Martialis posted:Like to congratulate VH4 on his near perfect timing yes its a problem that democratic presidents continue to care about whats legal or not because of decorum poisoning while republicans do whatever they want. when it comes to accomplishing things that are objectively good the ends absolutely justify the means. dejoy is a threat to democracy and should be tossed into prison - figure out the legalities and justifications later. like, morality doesn't keep you warm and ethics doesn't keep you fed. Owlspiracy fucked around with this message at 21:52 on Apr 23, 2021 |
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Apr 23, 2021 21:49
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Apologizes if already posted (had to take a break), but: https://www.pbs.org/independentlens/films/philly-da/ "April 20, 2021" "ABOUT THE DOCUMENTARY In 2017, Philadelphia, Pennsylvania had one of the highest incarceration rates of any major city in the United States. And it’s become the epicenter of a historic experiment that could shape the future of prosecution in America for decades to come. When civil rights attorney Larry Krasner mounted a long-shot campaign to become District Attorney, he ran on a bold pledge: to end mass incarceration by changing the culture of the criminal justice system from within. He shocked the establishment by winning in a landslide. Now, the bureaucrats he spent his campaign denigrating are his co-workers; the police he alienated are his rank-and-file law enforcers. Pressure comes from all sides of a system resistant to reform. Krasner’s unapologetic promise to use the power of the D.A.’s office for sweeping change is what got him elected; now that he’s in office, that same stubbornness threatens to alienate those he needs to work with the most. From the eye of this political storm, filmmakers Ted Passon, Yoni Brook, and Nicole Salazar gained unprecedented access into Krasner’s office and behind the scenes of the criminal justice system. Over the course of eight episodes, Philly D.A. explores the most pressing social issues of our time—police brutality, the opioid crisis, gun violence, and mass incarceration—through the lens of an idealistic team attempting fundamental overhaul from within the system."
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Apr 23, 2021 21:49
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Kalit posted:Huh? Your prior post left off the "enough has been done" part. To pull this out of the weeds my initial post was quote:You're not going to find many left people willing to celebrate that we have finally decided maybe we should start trying to remove the knife. Except the patient is coding and the hospital is on fire. The response to this was ah ha Biden has a high opinion poll so you are wrong. This was after lots of people made very long arguments how an opinion poll is not a good metric for determining how complacent and happy the populace is with the state of the country. Both of those facts cannot be true. People can be satisfied with Biden or that things are trending positively but NOT be happy if this is all you're getting but people cannot be celebrating the way things ARE but still be discontent enough to go get pepper balled.
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Apr 23, 2021 21:51
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Sedisp posted:Okay then if you're going to celebrate and be satisfied with a temporary change that doesn't go far enough but think other things are to be protested I'm not sure how Josef Bugmans original framing was wrong. You might know how it was wrong if you hadn't conveniently edited out the part of my post that directly addressed that point when you quoted it! Weird thing that is, that my posts don't answer your question when you edit out the answer.
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Apr 23, 2021 21:51
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Owlspiracy posted:yes its a problem that democratic presidents continue to care about whats legal or not because of decorum poisoning while republicans do whatever they want. when it comes to accomplishing things that are objectively good the ends absolutely justify the means. dejoy is a threat to democracy and should be tossed into prison - figure out the legalities and justifications later. When MY president breaks the law, it's objectively good.
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Apr 23, 2021 21:52
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Rust Martialis posted:Like to congratulate VH4 on his near perfect timing Yeah I'm goddamn uncanny in my timing aren't I? Wow, lol. Even I'm surprised at this one. Owlspiracy posted:yes its a problem that democratic presidents continue to care about whats legal or not because of decorum poisoning while republicans do whatever they want. when it comes to accomplishing things that are objectively good the ends absolutely justify the means. dejoy is a threat to democracy and should be tossed into prison - figure out the legalities and justifications later. Shut the gently caress up.
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Apr 23, 2021 21:52
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The Sean posted:On these forums a majority of people were libertarian psychos when most of us in college (or college-age) so a majority being centrists is an improvement for society. I'm in my 40s, and when I was a kid the cool thing for college age people was to be Republican. God, Country, and Reagan, amen. Stats like this show how much things can change in a few decades!
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Apr 23, 2021 21:53
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Edward Mass posted:When MY president breaks the law, it's objectively good. our country is literally founded on a group of people breaking unfair laws to create a more just society. the founding fathers saw the rule of law as a flexible constraint, not the prison that it's become. sometimes we need to move fast and break things. as i said im super disappointed that 2/3rds of young voters are apparently centrists. its a dagger strike to any future progressive hope 
Owlspiracy fucked around with this message at 21:56 on Apr 23, 2021 |
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Apr 23, 2021 21:53
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Jarmak posted:You might know how it was wrong if you hadn't conveniently edited out the part of my post that directly addressed that point when you quoted it! Yeah it absolutely does not answer my question. Is the word satisfied what's confusing people? I didn't think it was as confusing to people as indefinitely but I guess it's possible.
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Apr 23, 2021 21:54
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Owlspiracy posted:yes its a problem that democratic presidents continue to care about whats legal or not because of decorum poisoning while republicans do whatever they want. when it comes to accomplishing things that are objectively good the ends absolutely justify the means. dejoy is a threat to democracy and should be tossed into prison - figure out the legalities and justifications later. It's a good thing Obama didn't close Guantanamo Bay 
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Apr 23, 2021 21:56
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Owlspiracy posted:dejoy is a threat to democracy and should be tossed into prison - figure out the legalities and justifications later. Interesting you don't consider tossing people into jail without a legal basis to be a threat to democracy (as long as you're the one doing the tossing presumably). Article 1, Section 9, Clause 3.
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Apr 23, 2021 21:59
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Owlspiracy posted:yes its a problem that democratic presidents continue to care about whats legal or not because of decorum poisoning while republicans do whatever they want. when it comes to accomplishing things that are objectively good the ends absolutely justify the means. dejoy is a threat to democracy and should be tossed into prison - figure out the legalities and justifications later. Left wing authoritarianism isn't any better than right wing authoritarianism.
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Apr 23, 2021 21:59
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Owlspiracy posted:our country is literally founded on a group of people breaking unfair laws to create a more just society. the founding fathers saw the rule of law as a flexible constraint, not the prison that it's become. sometimes we need to move fast and break things. Throwing caution to the wind and doing whatever we want, however we want to do it, is a gamble, at best. The law allows for self-modification, we don't have to break anything to make change. My reply is assuming you're not just a troll or something.
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Apr 23, 2021 22:00
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Raenir Salazar posted:Left wing authoritarianism isn't any better than right wing authoritarianism. so i have been posting half-seriously but to post completely seriously the fundamental question of american politics for the next twenty-five years is "how do you govern when half your participants do not believe in the rule of law". any democratic system is fundamentally based on a shared belief in the legitimacy of the rule of law, and our system lacks many of the more modern inbuilt protections that prevent a political party which does not share this belief from seizing power. we have not reached a point of crisis yet, but inevitably within the next ten to twenty years there will be a point of crisis where the democratic party is going to have to decide how important their single-sided support of rule of law is - even when it might result with them permanently out of power. (this was also the key legal question from about 1920 to about 1933, when both liberal and conservative scholars tried to debate the extent to which rule of law was more important than crisis response, or protecting the state, even from itself)
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Apr 23, 2021 22:01
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or to put it another way: the republican party of 2021 is fundamentally different than the republican party of previous eras because it no longer believes in the rule of law. and considering that's, conservatively, 45% of this country, and about half of elected officials, that's a very, very serious problem.
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Apr 23, 2021 22:04
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PhazonLink posted:unless he remakes the wallstreet bull into a brazen bull he wont get my vote. stuffing the highest performing goldman sachs executive in there so that their burning flesh might please Number and send it ever higher zoux posted:And then maybe they shouldn't anyway, I cast my first presidential vote for Ralph Nader because Al Gore and George Bush are the fuckin same, dude (they were not) goddamn that was my first election and what a dang ol' bummer all that was
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Apr 23, 2021 22:05
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Raenir Salazar posted:Left wing authoritarianism isn't any better than right wing authoritarianism. Uhhh yes it is. Very much a reduced harm choice but yes there is absolutely a lesser evil of the two Sedisp fucked around with this message at 22:08 on Apr 23, 2021 |
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Apr 23, 2021 22:05
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Owlspiracy posted:yes its a problem that democratic presidents continue to care about whats legal or not because of decorum poisoning while republicans do whatever they want. Obviously DeJoy should be in prison, but I’d like him to remain there.
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Apr 23, 2021 22:06
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Owlspiracy posted:so i have been posting half-seriously but to post completely seriously the fundamental question of american politics for the next twenty-five years is "how do you govern when half your participants do not believe in the rule of law". any democratic system is fundamentally based on a shared belief in the legitimacy of the rule of law, and our system lacks many of the more modern inbuilt protections that prevent a political party which does not share this belief from seizing power. While I understand and share these concerns, touching the poop is bad no matter how fun it might be. We can already bring down the hammer within the confines of the law. As far as the Biden administration is concerned, let's hope they see it as the crisis it is. I've been surprised by them so far, so here's hoping.
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Apr 23, 2021 22:07
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Sedisp posted:Uhhh yes it is. Very much a reduced harm choice but yes their is absolutely a lesser evil of the two No, they're both poo poo. Partisans just think they'll be in the firing squad, not in front of it. History notwithstanding.
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Apr 23, 2021 22:12
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Owlspiracy posted:so i have been posting half-seriously but to post completely seriously the fundamental question of american politics for the next twenty-five years is "how do you govern when half your participants do not believe in the rule of law". any democratic system is fundamentally based on a shared belief in the legitimacy of the rule of law, and our system lacks many of the more modern inbuilt protections that prevent a political party which does not share this belief from seizing power. The answer is never to willingly embrace abandoning democracy to "save" democracy. The measures you "proposed" of jailing your political opponents will just provoke and incite further violence and waves of oppression and arrests as people oppose and protest those measures. We've seen this happen virtually every time throughout all of history. It's never worth it, it never works; you'll only ever destroy what you set out to save. Sedisp posted:Uhhh yes it is. Very much a reduced harm choice but yes there is absolutely a lesser evil of the two Untrue. No left wing authoritarian regime has proven itself better in the long run than a right wing regime; they're the same regime in the atrocities they commit.
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Apr 23, 2021 22:12
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