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stev posted:It's a shame it was impossible to take it seriously with Sam in that ugly as gently caress mask.
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Apr 23, 2021 21:01
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They never told us if Steve was on the moon or not. Garbage finale.
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Apr 23, 2021 21:03
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stev posted:It's a shame it was impossible to take it seriously with Sam in that ugly as gently caress mask. There must be someone who likes that weird rear end mask to say it keeps getting used, but I've never actually seen someone say so.
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Apr 23, 2021 21:04
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Sam's speech and resolving the Isaiah Bradley plot were very good but without them this finale would be worse than WandaVision's, every other mark was missed.
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Apr 23, 2021 21:10
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Yeah I really wasn't a fan of Walker teaming up with Sam/Bucky at the end, or his little hero moment stopping the van from falling. That dude does not deserve redemption of any sort, and I really hope the Veep setup at the end goes into some dark places.
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Apr 23, 2021 21:12
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DukeofCA posted:They never told us if Steve was on the moon or not. Garbage finale. [fanwank]After he gave the Shield to Sam, Steve got jabbed by Rocket with the Aether-extractor. Rocket loaded it with space-nanities that made Steve young again. He's currently hanging out with the Guardians and Thor to be yet another hot, fit blonde guy to make Peter Quill uncomfortable because Rocket thought it'd be funny. So, yes, Steve is on the moon having an adventure with the Guardians - just not Earth's moon.[/fanwank]
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Apr 23, 2021 21:14
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stev posted:Yeah I really wasn't a fan of Walker teaming up with Sam/Bucky at the end, or his little hero moment stopping the van from falling. That dude does not deserve redemption of any sort, and I really hope the Veep setup at the end goes into some dark places. If the fuckin mass murdering psycho that burns people alive gets redemption, why can't the guy who killed someone after watching his best friend get murdered in front of him. It's not like the guy who he killed was innocent, like 20 seconds earlier he was holding walker down so walker could get stabbed to death. This series opened up with falcon blowing people up, they're all bad The action in this finale was pretty bad, they really should have went with the rumoured "release virus that kills half the world" plot. It makes more sense thematically. In what world does a lone gunman trying to kill politicians stop whatever bill that politician was going to vote on. Terror Sweat fucked around with this message at 21:27 on Apr 23, 2021 |
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Apr 23, 2021 21:24
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Not sure if "He was no angel" is a good defence.
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Apr 23, 2021 21:26
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Vintersorg posted:Not sure if "He was no angel" is a good defence. Yeah, those people in that helicopter in the beginning of the series definitely deserved to live and I just can't see sam in the same light now. He's a mass murdering psycho IMO.
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Apr 23, 2021 21:28
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So I know Captain Falcon  is an existing thing in the comics, but have the comics addressed the issues around race and the symbolism of the role the way this show has?
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Apr 23, 2021 21:30
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Nobody has ever rooted for a villain in the MCU because the actor playing them is charismatic
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Apr 23, 2021 21:31
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A bit messy as they had so much to finish in one episode but overall I liked it. If you were wondering about Sams speech that's what Steve did in the comics all the freaking time, dude would give speeches and cause riots to stop. So a bit of a nod to that. The costume looks good, pretty faithful to the comic at first glance. Bucky is finally healing, it's been a long hard road but he'll fully get there. Maybe find some real happiness too. I loved how Zemo was so happy at the end with his butler blowing up the remaining flag smashers. In prison? Pfft, still showed them. Walker took a different turn than expected but probably shouldn't have been that surprised. Curious to see he goes from here on out. Had zero problem with Sharon being the power broker, she got majorly screwed over and forgotten by everyone until they needed her again. Honestly I respect her for making something out of the whole situation, she was used and now she's the one who controls others. Happy Isaiah got his moment and has a place in history now officially, the man deserved it.
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Apr 23, 2021 21:32
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Mr Ice Cream Glove posted:From past episodes curse those pro freedom messages in my mass media
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Apr 23, 2021 21:38
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Captain America 4 being written by the head show writer.
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Apr 23, 2021 21:44
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BurritoJustice posted:Oh god please don't make Quill a rapist. He's a bit of a goofy fuckup but he is one of the purest hearts in the MCU I'd like if GOTG3 makes Quill accept that the Gamora he knew is dead, and that the new Gamora is a different person. Dude's arc is that he has a lot of unresolved conflict regarding loss of loved ones, and it would be nice to see him finally solve that by letting new Gamora go, and wishing her the best in her future space adventures. ONE YEAR LATER posted:"Sources claim Kevin Feige sleeps nude in an oxygen tent which he believes gives him sexual powers." I wonder how many of those assholes got an aneurysm when Walker asked "Did Lemar's life mattered?".
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Apr 23, 2021 21:44
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Look on the "bright" side Zemo did them a solid favor by making sure the Blip Antifa Zoomers got finished off. Score one for the old white man patriarchy /s
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Apr 23, 2021 21:45
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I would watch "Falcon on the Winter Soldier"
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Apr 23, 2021 21:47
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LionArcher posted:Captain America 4 being written by the head show writer. Here’s a link for anyone that wants to read one. https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.ho...llman-exclusive
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Apr 23, 2021 21:50
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Umbra Dubium posted:I would watch "Falcon on the Winter Soldier" This is a ship free zone! Once it begins it never ends.
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Apr 23, 2021 21:50
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Pretty sure Karli Did Nothing Wrong.
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Apr 23, 2021 21:51
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Umbra Dubium posted:I would watch "Falcon on the Winter Soldier" Go to the Horny Raft
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Apr 23, 2021 21:51
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stev posted:Yeah I really wasn't a fan of Walker teaming up with Sam/Bucky at the end, or his little hero moment stopping the van from falling. That dude does not deserve redemption of any sort, and I really hope the Veep setup at the end goes into some dark places. I don't think he does. It seemed fairly obvious the guy isn't being redeemed. It's all a dog and pony show by the same guys who wanted to keep using him. The Hydra/Whatever bad guys used it the footage of his minor help and (probably since it is more implied than shown) big PR talking head push to make it seem like he WAS BACK! They get a nice friendly and useful tool in their arsenal that is even more grateful to have a chance to come back. Walker is a grateful puppy just willing to do whatever it takes now that he knows the sting of almost losing it all. I remember literal evidence of cops doing terrible things and they try and spin with these good acts. Worked better in our parents day now that cops are often recorded gleefully gunning people down. But yeah.... I don't think the show was representing that he was truly redeemed any more than Peggy was legitimately grateful to be back in from the cold. As far as Walker showing up to help Cap and Bucky... dude probably was just hinted at just waiting for any chance to find revenge. First sign or hint of Flag Smashers and he was going to show up whether wanted or no. As much as I want to be annoyed by Captain White Privilege he seemed legitimately moved by Sam's words and the guy is just a sad tool by the powers that be. He's still part of the problem but he is someone to be feel some pity for. Everyone posted:Exactly. If John Walker had beaten that guy to death in a room with no witnesses, he'd still be "Official" Captain America. Since he did it in public and on-camera - and therefore embarrassed his bosses, not so much. If Sam had button-holed that guy in private, Senator Asshat would have laughed him out of the room. Since he did it in public on TV as Captain America after saving their lives from the angry freckled cute teenage girl terrorist, the GRC has to do the right thing - or at least not do more of the wrong thing. Absolutely. Still laughed that the very same room Walker was tossed out in he was invited back to the master's table and almost wagging with glee. "I'm back!" Same room of empty words that Sharon Carter was let back in and she seemed to know they were just bullshit words. As much as this episode had some genuine feel good moments they still didn't seem to gloss over some of the dark. VagueRant posted:Wait, were the guys trying to kill everyone in the cargo stacks in ep 3 just bounty hunters? I'd assumed that was the power broker's goons the whole time. And who put the bounty out if not the power broker? To backup that one goon: Captain America literally using drones behind a red, white and blue shield of freedom is really freakin funny As naive as it was I liked Cap thinking he can convince people to do the right thing with reason and an appeal to their humanity. That bald white guy probably had a chuckle after his chauffeur picked him up and took him to his favourite mistress. As jaded as I can be it is nice to see someone with child's heart full of hope. DogsInSpace! fucked around with this message at 21:56 on Apr 23, 2021 |
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Apr 23, 2021 21:52
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VagueRant posted:Pretty sure Karli Did Nothing Wrong. She's a minority in the US. How did anyone expect it to end differently.
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Apr 23, 2021 21:56
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Overall, the story is meh as I expect any Marvel property to be, but the commentary on race in the U.S. and the performances really made this show stand out, and I was expecting this to be just a silly villain-of-the-season sort of show. God damnit I must be getting weaker in my old age because I totally cried during Sam's scenes with Isaiah. I think because I've seen so many cynical, beaten-down black men--especially older black men--so it heavily resonated.
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Apr 23, 2021 21:57
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https://twitter.com/THR/status/1385693362456563714
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Apr 23, 2021 22:05
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Mr Ice Cream Glove posted:From past episodes "This is such bullshit! Cops obviously don't treat black people the way I wish they would!"
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Apr 23, 2021 22:06
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The World Inferno posted:I like how the shield was stopped by common office chair Patriotism stops at the office.
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Apr 23, 2021 22:10
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I liked it. I think it ended on good notes for pretty much everybody. The way it finished the Flag Smasher story was a little too "clean," for my tastes, but otherwise I don't have any real complaints. However, I have to admit that after all the ideological buildup I was hoping for a more profound synthesis of all the theses that Sam had been trying to navigate. Everyone in this series had a very valid perspective, and Sam did reconcile them, but he did it in a fairly basic way. I really liked that Sam defended Karli even beyond the end. He held up the legitimacy of her beliefs, and even her actions, demanding that these leaders not call her a terrorist, refusing to fight her even as she demanded he do so and came to the brink of killing him in her rage, and holding her up as both a warning AND a martyr for a worthy cause. I liked that even though Karli definitively crossed the line, which I'd hoped she wouldn't do, that Sam prevented any real harm from coming from her actions and continued to share that compassion and sympathy for her cause, and in a way by doing so preserved the integrity of what she stood for. I think the message we ultimately take away from the story in terms of its meditations on Revolution as a tool for societal change is that revolution needs to be tempered. That it's goal should be to make those in power fear what might happen if its grievances aren't taken seriously. "The Ballot OR the Bullet," as opposed to just, you know, the Bullet. The show does not give us much indication of where the line should be drawn though, when does the Revolution need to take that crucial step into tearing down the old and not just trying to force it to renovate, other than to say "This was not one of those times." Its a bit weak, but it could have easily been worse and just gone strait to condemning Revolutionary rhetoric and methods as always too extreme and that working within the system is the only path. Either way though, the big message we get from the other side of the equation, the experience of Black America within that question of where Revolution belongs in our society, seems to be focused on inclusion. Sam's speech to the GRC leaders and his wrap-up with Isiah focus on the idea that what those in power need to avoid VIOLENT revolution is empathy, so that they can do the right things even when they're faced with tough questions, and that empathy is best realized through diversity. Sam has empathy for Karli that those in power can't understand because they do not share a similar life experience, and that they need to give those like her a seat at the table if they want to do things the right way, because if they don't the conflict between them and those they are harming will only escalate until the ones they are harming destroy them. Sam's synthesis is basically "I, as a black man who has become the symbol of America, refuse to accept that war along these racial/class divides is inevitable even though I can't fundamentally deny the arguments of these characters who believe that it is. I won't condone destroying the nation I symbolize, but I do recognize its crimes, and I won't allow it to continue harming people like myself. By taking the Captain America mantle I am taking a position of power which is rooted in the system but without becoming part of that system, and this will allow me to demand change the right way while still preserving peace." Which, like I said, is a pretty basic way of resolving the tensions represented by Isiah, Karli, Walker, Bucky and Steve's expectations, and his own pathos. But I think it DOES work. There's probably more to be found here but I need to chew on it a bit more. For now though, solid finish to an amazing series. Very reminiscent of Endgame in that way - coasting to a nice easy landing rather than trying to knock it out of the park only to fall on its face.
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Apr 23, 2021 22:17
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There are a lot of irons in the fire now, eh? Seems like the marvel output is gonna have to double to keep up with all these side characters like US Agent and Zemo along with the main characters. I wonder if that was the plan before covid And honestly I am kinda into it if it means getting weird one offs or miniseries.
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Apr 23, 2021 22:21
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Good Soldier Svejk posted:There are a lot of irons in the fire now, eh? Seems like the marvel output is gonna have to double to keep up with all these side characters like US Agent and Zemo along with the main characters. I wonder if that was the plan before covid Marvel has done a good job of developing a stable of heroes but a very poor job of developing recurring villains, very odd when you consider cape books as a genre! I'm glad they're catching up a bit.
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Apr 23, 2021 22:23
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I can't hate heavy handed stuff anymore, because holy poo poo, people are dense as poo poo and subtlety is not going to work. You literally have to say RACISM IS BAD for people to actually get it these days.
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Apr 23, 2021 22:38
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"I can't believe they redeemed Walker, he killed a guy" "I'm disappointed they didn't portray Karli as unequivocally good, despite killing many guys" Also, there's no part of that ending that fully redeems Walker. No shades of grey allowed
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Apr 23, 2021 22:44
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Xander B Coolridge posted:"I can't believe they redeemed Walker, he killed a guy" Walker represents police brutality, nationalism and toxic masculinity (while simultaneously being a symptom of the systems that created him), while Karli actually stands for something and represents the desire to lash out and fight when all other options to effect change are denied you. The former absolutely doesn't need any sort of redemption arc in TYOOL 2021 while the latter definitely does. I'd have much preferred if the show didn't have her kill or kidnap anyone though.
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Apr 23, 2021 22:51
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stev posted:Walker represents police brutality, nationalism and toxic masculinity (while simultaneously being a symptom of the systems that created him), while Karli actually stands for something and represents the desire to lash out and fight when all other options to effect change are denied you. The former absolutely doesn't need any sort of redemption arc in TYOOL 2021 while the latter definitely does. This is the uncomfortable thing people don't like having to talk about : Either you think force is justified in service of revolution or resisting oppression, and then you have to deal with the ethical quandary that some innocent people WILL get hurt. Or it's not acceptable, and you have to deal with the fact that you can agree with the goals of someone while they do horrible things to achieve those ends. Instead, people want the former to be true, but only in the abstract, and any case where the revolutionary hurts people is 'out of character' because they're in the right in terms of their goal.
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Apr 23, 2021 23:06
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The_Doctor posted:You bring foil and paper towels. Am I reading too much into the fact that Bucky got barred from Wakanda but invited to a traditional American Black family cookout? Did anybody else notice Sarah 'mirin Bucky while the kids were hanging off his arm? I don't know if was a directorial choice or the actress was actually infatuated, but it's still hilarious.
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Apr 23, 2021 23:09
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stev posted:Walker represents police brutality, nationalism and toxic masculinity (while simultaneously being a symptom of the systems that created him), while Karli actually stands for something and represents the desire to lash out and fight when all other options to effect change are denied you. The former absolutely doesn't need any sort of redemption arc in TYOOL 2021 while the latter definitely does. I really liked his response to the Senators in last week's episode. He's not a bad apple, he's a product of a system that is working just fine for the people it's intended to protect. He's the sacrificial lamb in the same way Derek Chauvin is now for the Right in order to continue to resist police reform It doesn't surprise me that he will continue to be allowed to play that out as US Agent. I don't think that's an endorsement of his character
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Apr 23, 2021 23:13
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Gaz-L posted:This is the uncomfortable thing people don't like having to talk about : Either you think force is justified in service of revolution or resisting oppression, and then you have to deal with the ethical quandary that some innocent people WILL get hurt. Or it's not acceptable, and you have to deal with the fact that you can agree with the goals of someone while they do horrible things to achieve those ends. Instead, people want the former to be true, but only in the abstract, and any case where the revolutionary hurts people is 'out of character' because they're in the right in terms of their goal. I think the show staked out a pretty clear message that violence against property, buildings, money, vaccines, food supplies, is one thing and violence against PEOPLE (outside of self-defense) is where the line has to be drawn, because the system they're fighting against is so predicated on violent oppression and if you use those tools against them "Its not better, its just different." Sam has no problem with Karli's cause, he doesn't even seem to have MUCH problem with her stealing although he isn't entirely comfortable with it (note all the times he tries to say he can make calls and talk to people to get the downtrodden the money or supplies they need, and the fact that he was willing to fight to stop those vaccines from being taken), but its killing people, especially in the form of intentional political assassinations, that he can't abide. In the end he DOES defend her, even demands that she not be called a terrorist despite her crossing the line and almost slaughtering a dozen world leaders to get what she wanted, which makes one think that he's been 'radicalized,' to some degree himself, since before he was willing to fight to stop her from robbing banks and now he's sticking up for her when she tried to burn people alive I think the show's stance is honestly very in-synch with a more full view of American history vis a vis protest bordering on revolution. From Black Lives Matter protesters last year knocking down statues and burning a couple of empty buildings that represented the oppression of their communities going all the way back to Shay's Rebellion managing to get the Founding Fathers off their assess and to work replacing the Articles of Confederation before the country imploded, there's a million examples of Revolutionary politics going really far without crossing the line into PROACTIVE violence and/or Revolutionary WAR in the style of a Russian or French (or for that matter AMERICAN) Revolution. That seems to be where they drew their line.
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Apr 23, 2021 23:19
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The US Agent line was honestly one of the most embarrassing things I've seen in the MCU. Really will never get over how much better and more nuanced the Evil Captain America in Jessica Jones season 1 was as a dramatic take on that premise.
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Apr 23, 2021 23:21
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Walker is basically a walking cautionary tale for untreated PTSD and TBI. He not evil, he’s just got really bad impulse control. He’s a danger to himself and everyone around him. He’s not super hero material, but he’s definitely ‘living smart missile’ material.
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Apr 23, 2021 23:22
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So a thought on Sam's suit: Are we not going to talk about the junior Redwing Twins? Is the other one called Bluewing?
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Apr 23, 2021 23:31
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