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sexpig by night posted:but rather just rolled up gun ready instantly sexpig by night posted:I didn't say it was drawn
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Apr 24, 2021 16:03
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SniHjen posted:could we NOT do this? Seems like the issue is the pedantry over "already drawn"/"drawn instantly"/"drawn very soon after arrival" which sexpig did not initiate.
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Apr 24, 2021 16:34
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Rather, we should consider whether the grown rear end man needed to put four bullets into a teenage girl within two minutes of hearing about the situation, and the answer is no. Again, you choose to be a police officer, that means you choose to put your life on the line for others. I don't give a flying gently caress how much he feared for his own life in that situation, he could have stopped Ma'Khia without murdering her. People face the same goddam situations every day, without the power of the law behind them, and without a firearm, and manage it such that all of the loving teenagers are breathing at the end of it.reignonyourparade posted:Looks like the two other girls were former foster kids who had come by for the foster mother's birthday so the reports that they were bullies from school there to jump Ma'khia appear to have, uh, not been accurate. This has been known for days and the foster mother herself already gave a statement but great job explaining again how the brave defender of the right needed to shoot down a kid Edgar Allen Ho fucked around with this message at 17:05 on Apr 24, 2021 |
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Apr 24, 2021 16:59
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Edgar Allen Ho posted:Rather, we should consider whether the grown rear end man needed to put four bullets into a teenage girl within two minutes of hearing about the situation, and the answer is no. The cop isn’t using the legal concept of self defence to defend his own person. He is using it to defend the other girl. These are the frames some fractions of a second before the shots. I doubt anyone here is arguing the "self defence" is the cop defending himself or feeling afraid at that moment for himself. 
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Apr 24, 2021 17:17
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Cranappleberry posted:you can fire shots into the ground or air. Shooting into the air isn't great and can be dangerous but shots get attention and that buys time. It's most definitely not the same as aiming at the targeted person at center mass height while they are close to the victim. You are not catching me in some logical trap lol. Firing warning shots is both a criminal act in most places and dangerous to innocents totally unrelated to the incident at hand. But it's ok to do that but not to try and subdue the imminent threat that was in mid lunge? Like a western where the law arrives and unloads a few into the air? Nobody needs to catch you in a "logical trap" because you don't have any logic to get caught with. I think some people are just forcing reality to change to protect their notion that ACAB all the time every time, anything they do is wrong. They need to accept that poo poo happens, and sometimes it isn't the cops who are at fault for that poo poo. Is this a tragedy? Absolutely. But outside a Hollywood spaghetti western I don't see how your "warning shots" would do anything but land a few more innocents somewhere else in danger
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Apr 24, 2021 18:30
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The taboo against warning shots and leg shots seems to be a US gun culture/cop thing exclusively. I'm going to guess we can trace it back to the usual killology-adjacent trainers over the years, it's very divergent from the military/foreign law enforcement/etc
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Apr 24, 2021 18:33
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SocketWrench posted:I think some people are just forcing reality to change to protect their notion that ACAB all the time every time, anything they do is wrong. Yeah, this is my take too. People appear to be generalizing the premise of ACAB to mean that every individual cop acts wrongly in all circumstances and then arguing backwards from that conclusion regardless of the facts of the incident at hand. Let me make clear - this loving sucks. Ma'Khia Bryant's death is a tragedy and not an acceptable outcome, but it was a consequence of deep, systemic flaws in our society rather than the actions of one malicious individual. SchnorkIes posted:The taboo against warning shots and leg shots seems to be a US gun culture/cop thing exclusively. I'm going to guess we can trace it back to the usual killology-adjacent trainers over the years, it's very divergent from the military/foreign law enforcement/etc Speaking at least for leg shots, in the US any discharge of a firearm at a person is considered to be a use of lethal force. Given that lethal force is meant to be deployed exclusively as a last resort to prevent imminent grievous harm, priority is to maximize reliability and effectiveness in circumstances where it is deemed appropriate. It's also worth noting that even in countries that do train for leg shots, they are still considered a form of lethal force. There is no safe way to fire a gun at somebody, and leg shots are only used in situations where lethal force would be considered justified and the death of the target is recognized an acceptable possibility. My understanding is that they are also discretionary based on the circumstances - they might used in the classic case of a knife wielder approaching from a distance, where immobilizing them would end the threat and there is time for additional shots if shooting for the legs is unsuccessful, but they might not be used against immediate threats like an active shooter able to return fire or someone in the act of committing a stabbing. Voyager I fucked around with this message at 19:05 on Apr 24, 2021 |
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Apr 24, 2021 18:51
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SchnorkIes posted:The taboo against warning shots and leg shots seems to be a US gun culture/cop thing exclusively. I'm going to guess we can trace it back to the usual killology-adjacent trainers over the years, it's very divergent from the military/foreign law enforcement/etc There's zero way to fire a gun in a neighborhood without risking killing someone. if you want to get someone's attention without shooting them, a gun is the worst possible thing you could use to accomplish that. Also as a principlel, giving cops one more thing to use guns for just means they pull their guns out more (and/or get to keep carrying guns), both of which are the last possible thing anyone should want. Herstory Begins Now fucked around with this message at 19:33 on Apr 24, 2021 |
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Apr 24, 2021 19:20
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SocketWrench posted:I think some people are just forcing reality to change to protect their notion that ACAB all the time every time, anything they do is wrong. They need to accept that poo poo happens, and sometimes it isn't the cops who are at fault for that poo poo. Is this a tragedy? Absolutely. But outside a Hollywood spaghetti western I don't see how your "warning shots" would do anything but land a few more innocents somewhere else in danger I could say the same thing, that the folks on the other side of the issue are starting from the assumption that if a cop shoots someone then it must be for a good reason, and working backwards from there to justify it. And that's a much more common sentiment in America than ACAB, so it's not much a stretch. And they're making a lot of false assumptions to justify it, like the idea that the girl in pink definitely would have been killed if the cop hadn't killed Ma'Khia. You may not be aware of the biases you hold, but that's one of the things the anti-police movement is trying to change. Folks should ask themselves this: what good does it do to let everyone ITT know that you think the cop made the right decision, and to argue fervently for that opinion? You may think it's just posting on a dying comedy forum, but ideas have a funny way of propagating on the internet.
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Apr 24, 2021 19:38
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Fister Roboto posted:Folks should ask themselves this: what good does it do to let everyone ITT know that you think the cop made the right decision, and to argue fervently for that opinion? You may think it's just posting on a dying comedy forum, but ideas have a funny way of propagating on the internet. Is this supposed to be some kind of threat against the people who disagree with you?
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Apr 24, 2021 19:53
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Voyager I posted:Is this supposed to be some kind of threat against the people who disagree with you? It's suggesting that people are engaging in unintentional copaganda.
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Apr 24, 2021 19:56
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Voyager I posted:Is this supposed to be some kind of threat against the people who disagree with you? No? What the hell.
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Apr 24, 2021 19:59
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Harold Fjord posted:It's suggesting that people are engaging in unintentional copaganda. "Sometimes the police have taken actions that were not outright terrible" is pretty far from copaganda.
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Apr 24, 2021 20:04
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Alright, sorry, it sounded like you were suggesting some kind of slander campaign against your posting enemies. Apologies for misreading you, but much of this thread has been posted in insanely bad faith (such as your suggestion that people disagreeing with you must be supporters of the police - look at our post histories if you're going to make those kinds of claims) that it poisons my interpretations. As for why it matters - at the most basic level, it's acknowledging reality and being willing to use critical thinking. Are you suggesting that, if my sincere judgment is that the actions of the police officer may be defensible based on the facts of this specific incident, I should instead suppress that and pretend that his actions were inexcusable? Why? What purpose does that serve? If the intent is to maintain support for a cause, are we not undermining ourselves by appearing histrionic? Fister Roboto posted:I could say the same thing, that the folks on the other side of the issue are starting from the assumption that if a cop shoots someone then it must be for a good reason, and working backwards from there to justify it. And that's a much more common sentiment in America than ACAB, so it's not much a stretch. And they're making a lot of false assumptions to justify it, like the idea that the girl in pink definitely would have been killed if the cop hadn't killed Ma'Khia. You may not be aware of the biases you hold, but that's one of the things the anti-police movement is trying to change. We don't, and most of us have made it abundantly clear in this thread and others that we don't. As for this incident, it's impossible to know what might have happened otherwise, but any chances are being taken with the health and safety of the girl in pink, not the officer himself. Teenagers aren't adults, but they aren't harmless infants either and they are more than capable of presenting a lethal threat, especially to each other. To emphasize, I'm not even necessarily asserting that the actions of the officer were correct - I'm not an expert or any kind of legal authority - merely that he didn't come here to commit cold-blooded murder the way someone like Derek Chauvin did.
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Apr 24, 2021 20:12
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Voyager I posted:Is this supposed to be some kind of threat against the people who disagree with you? I took it as them saying that if someone agrees with the actions of a cop, regardless of context, they defacto approve of all actions any cop takes or has taken and are approving of the way in which policing in general is conducted in the US. I.E. anyone who thinks that the cop who shot Ma'Khia Bryant was justified in his actions based on the evidence so far presented also believes that the cops who shot Tamir Rice were justified in their actions.
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Apr 24, 2021 20:14
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Harold Fjord posted:It's suggesting that people are engaging in unintentional copaganda. Quote those people and explain how their posts are "copaganda" please
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Apr 24, 2021 20:16
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Booourns posted:Quote those people and explain how their posts are "copaganda" please The idea that "this is someone making a Hard Choicetm" could be considered copoganda adjacent. It plays into the idea that the only way to maintain order is through harsh action and "discipline". The idea that if we didn't have laws everyone would be killing everyone else all the time forever. Though personally I'd say that it is not like that I can see why people would think so.
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Apr 24, 2021 20:22
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Voyager I posted:Yeah, this is my take too. People appear to be generalizing the premise of ACAB to mean that every individual cop acts wrongly in all circumstances and then arguing backwards from that conclusion regardless of the facts of the incident at hand. I assure you that we aren't
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Apr 24, 2021 20:23
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Booourns posted:Quote those people and explain how their posts are "copaganda" please Maybe the other guy wants to but I was just clarifying that they did not mean "I'll make sure your work/loved ones hear about what a monster you are" or whatever sort of "threat" was being inferred. Double-post ! 
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Apr 24, 2021 20:24
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That is a really depressing video to watch. Did she even realize the cop was behind her? I mean he starts shouting at her as she starts what does look to me like a stabbing action and the next second she's dying on the ground at 15 years old.
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Apr 24, 2021 20:30
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Fister Roboto posted:
It is, in fact, just posting on a dying comedy forum. People don't have to hold back on posting here for fear that they'll give ideas to powerful people or something, okay?
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Apr 24, 2021 20:34
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i have no intention of watching it but i appreciate the analysis earlier in the thread from the people who did which made a pretty compelling case that in addition to any fuckups before arrival on the scene (and the overall societal disaster leading to makhia attempting to stab another girl), drawing the gun was probably the wrong decision and locked in only one possible reaction to the situation
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Apr 24, 2021 20:36
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Voyager I posted:Alright, sorry, it sounded like you were suggesting some kind of slander campaign against your posting enemies. Apologies for misreading you, but much of this thread has been posted in insanely bad faith (such as your suggestion that people disagreeing with you must be supporters of the police - look at our post histories if you're going to make those kinds of claims) that it poisons my interpretations. I'm saying that you (general you) should ask yourself why you feel the need to defend the cop's actions so fervently, and whether your unconscious biases and assumptions with regards to policing are affecting that. Nobody is demanding that you provide your opinion on this, so it's not like I'm asking you to "suppress" your judgement or pretend anything. There are plenty of other situations where it might be best to keep your opinion to yourself. And I would say that, if you actually support the cause of reducing police brutality, then arguing "oh, but this one specific case of police brutality is actually OK" definitely undermines that cause. Far more than "appearing histrionic", whatever that means. Fister Roboto fucked around with this message at 20:49 on Apr 24, 2021 |
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Apr 24, 2021 20:45
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Other countries use warning shots to positive effect. https://www.dw.com/en/when-are-german-police-allowed-to-use-guns/a-53826205 And again they're becoming recommended policy for US police departments. You can argue if this officer in this situation could take a warning shot but they are used in places and they do work. No one's disagreeing that they can be dangerous but they can also be less dangerous than any other option. And they work, they scare the poo poo out of people. That shock does work.
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Apr 24, 2021 20:55
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i don't want us to adopt policy that rehabilitates guns by letting cops think they're allowed to have them at the ready as a 'nonlethal' option or something they can discharge in crowded neighborhoods as a 'warning'
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Apr 24, 2021 21:02
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GreyjoyBastard posted:i have no intention of watching it but i appreciate the analysis earlier in the thread from the people who did There's a 23-second security camera footage from across the street and from the cop arriving (around 0:06) to shots fired is like 12 seconds. He has his hand on his holstered gun from several seconds and then draws around the 15 second mark as Bryant gets up and rushes at the pink girl. He's clearly aiming at her as she gets up and he's a yard or two away max so I presume saw the reported knife in her hand around the 13-14 second mark, them draws and aims. He fires 2-3 seconds after drawing (18-19 second mark). At no point is she even vaguely threatening the cop, I have no idea why anyone would claim he was defending *himself*. It's not even clear to me she knew police had arrived. It took me several watchings to even be able to see how Bryant ended up on the ground, she pushes a girl, stumbles, then gets up and apparently rushes pink girl. As she does this, the cop draws his gun. He might(??) have been able to grab her from behind as she got up, but it seems like he turned to face the person who had just kicked someone in the head? By the time he turns back she's out of reach and then he's drawn his gun. I mean at that point he's going to shoot, it's too late. He clearly had seen the knife and it really looks like Bryant was about to stab the other person. No cop is going to just stand and watch the girl get stabbed. What a cluster.
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Apr 24, 2021 21:05
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Fister Roboto posted:Folks should ask themselves this: what good does it do to let everyone ITT know that you think the cop made the right decision, and to argue fervently for that opinion? You may think it's just posting on a dying comedy forum, but ideas have a funny way of propagating on the internet. I think there is a fundamental disconnect with the legal and moral ways people are looking at this. Vahakyla and others have been pretty clear, at least to me, that they think the cop was not necessarily morally correct but made a justified choice because if what he did was illegal then by how the law governs self defense in this country the girl in pink would have done something illegal if she had fought back and killed the person attacking her with a knife. If you think it's not wrong to to use lethal force to defend yourself from an attacker using lethal force, you have to say what the cop did was allowable in that situation or your whole concept of self defense becomes incoherent. I don't think people in this thread will be able to reconcile, because it looks like the camps are split into sides based on "it's morally wrong for the cops to kill people" and "it's morally right to be able to defend yourself (and others, as the laws work) from lethal force with lethal force, and we should consistently apply the law." ^^^ as that guy says, it's a big cluster gently caress.
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Apr 24, 2021 21:12
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Voyager I posted:As for why it matters - at the most basic level, it's acknowledging reality and being willing to use critical thinking. Are you suggesting that, if my sincere judgment is that the actions of the police officer may be defensible based on the facts of this specific incident, I should instead suppress that and pretend that his actions were inexcusable? Why? What purpose does that serve? If the intent is to maintain support for a cause, are we not undermining ourselves by appearing histrionic? You should look real close and think real hard on your sincere judgement and how it came to be and what may be influencing it. The reality you perceive isn't some sort of objective reality that everyone must submit to. Part of why this is so hard is because we are steeped in the systems causing all of this harm. We perpetuate them unknowingly even when we consciously oppose them. ^ I don't think what he did is illegal and I don't think it matters. Even if it was I don't think there would be punishment or justice for it. Also there's more nuance to the defense argument. I can believe you have a right to defend yourself or others from imminent harm and lethal force can be part of that, but I can also believe that it should be used as a last resort and you have an obligation to use the least amount of force to protect someone. It's all academic though because that cop isn't going to see any consequences. It's more useful to understand how systems we have in place make this outcome possible or preferred. As different as this is from George Floyd there's an undercurrent of dehumanizing/devaluing black lives that runs through both cases.
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Apr 24, 2021 21:40
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Fister Roboto posted:I could say the same thing, that the folks on the other side of the issue are starting from the assumption that if a cop shoots someone then it must be for a good reason, and working backwards from there to justify it. No, you really couldn't say the same thing, at least not based on posts in this thread. "The other side" is reasoning prima facie from the video of this particular incident, that the cop saved the victim in pink from deadly attack. No application of a general principle that all cop shootings are good, is necessary to reach this position. And it's perfectly consistent with, for example, most cop shootings being bad with this one being an exception. OTOH, some posts in the ACAB camp are twisting themselves into bizarre pretzels to disallow any exception to the general ACAB principle, like that the cop failed to come in with immediate dominating authority which opened the door to later events  . Or that the attacker tripped and fell knife-first into the victim's neck, which would be comical if it weren't for the real life tragedy it purports to describe.
vessbot fucked around with this message at 00:55 on Apr 25, 2021 |
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Apr 24, 2021 21:42
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Morningwoodpecker posted:You need to watch the video with the sound turned on. Would she have ignored him? It's totally possible, but we'll never know because he chose to shoot her instead of finding out. Which is why it's particularly gross to justify her shooting by falsely claiming she disregarded "a cop yelling at her to stop". This is the reason I harp on this: GreyjoyBastard posted:i have no intention of watching it but i appreciate the analysis earlier in the thread from the people who did Morningwoodpecker posted:That may be why she went at the girl in pink with the knife despite a cop car being right there and a cop yelling at her to stop.
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Apr 24, 2021 22:17
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SchnorkIes posted:The taboo against warning shots and leg shots seems to be a US gun culture/cop thing exclusively. I'm going to guess we can trace it back to the usual killology-adjacent trainers over the years, it's very divergent from the military/foreign law enforcement/etc It's not taboo it's just the difference between practical reality and TV.
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Apr 24, 2021 23:37
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Paracaidas posted:And come away with the false impression that Reardon had told Ma'Khia to stop. Or, in fact, to do anything at all. That would certainly make it easier to justify an argument that Reardon had no choice but to shoot the kid. It's just, yknow, a lie. Reardon saved a kid and also possibly a dog. (USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST)
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Apr 24, 2021 23:38
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Morningwoodpecker posted:It's not taboo it's just the difference between practical reality and TV. There’s reality outside the US, too. https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=r-LOT5XwkEU
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Apr 24, 2021 23:39
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Rust Martialis posted:That is a really depressing video to watch. Should the cop have waited to shoot until she did/didn't acknowledge his vocal commands? I hate this whole thing because it's perfect/horrible example of policing and race relations in the United States. How did the cops get called in the first place, and what drove this young lady to take a knife to someone? How can we address that? How can we deal with family crisies without a gun being drawn on a minor?
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Apr 24, 2021 23:48
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Vahakyla posted:There’s reality outside the US, too. I know I'm not from the US. Compare the video you just posted with the others in the thread you'll see that every situation is different so blanket rules on things like warning or leg shots are an utterly unrealistic idea.
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Apr 24, 2021 23:49
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It comes down to this, in my opinion: if the officer did not believe there was an imminent risk of the pink lady being stabbed (as in, within seconds), the use of a gun at all (warning shots, or aimed for a leg or whatever) is unacceptable in this situation. Had he been there 10 seconds earlier or so, a gun should never have been used at all and we'd be having a very different conversation. The question is: if a police officer believes a murder or gross bodily harm of another person is imminent (as seems plausible given the video), can they and should they fire with lethal intent to prevent it, if they judge that no other means will work? I think that's an open question, I could argue either side of that, but what this is not similar to is: a man with a knife threatening police officers, a man with a knife threatening random people but not being close to any of them, or a man with a gun threatening to commit suicide. Those are different situations. We could also discuss those situations, but it's not relevant to the case at hand.
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Apr 24, 2021 23:55
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TheBuilder posted:Should the cop have waited to shoot until she did/didn't acknowledge his vocal commands? I hate this whole thing because it's perfect/horrible example of policing and race relations in the United States. How did the cops get called in the first place, and what drove this young lady to take a knife to someone? How can we address that? How can we deal with family crisies without a gun being drawn on a minor? Yeah, it's like an air crash investigation. You can investigate the last 30 seconds all you like, but as often as not you need to look a lot further back to figure out why people died and how to prevent them from dying in the future. And that should be the goal here. This situation must not, cannot, be repeated; it's abhorrent. I'm just not convinced the officer's decision to shoot Ma'Khia, in that moment, was the biggest or most significant error that led to this wholly unacceptable situation.
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Apr 24, 2021 23:59
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PT6A posted:Yeah, it's like an air crash investigation. You can investigate the last 30 seconds all you like, but as often as not you need to look a lot further back to figure out why people died and how to prevent them from dying in the future. And that should be the goal here. This situation must not, cannot, be repeated; it's abhorrent. I'm just not convinced the officer's decision to shoot Ma'Khia, in that moment, was the biggest or most significant error that led to this wholly unacceptable situation. Yeah. Like the whole thing is a loving horror show and multiple parties are at fault. Dispatch for loving up call stuff. The dad for not deescalating the fight and then escalating poo poo at the worst possible time. The cop for obviously killing her even if he did save pink shirt. Personally I want a full independent investigation to find out where all the systems failed, even before the incident. This kinda poo poo shouldn’t happen again.
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Apr 25, 2021 00:09
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Fister Roboto posted:I'm saying that you (general you) should ask yourself why you feel the need to defend the cop's actions so fervently, and whether your unconscious biases and assumptions with regards to policing are affecting that. The answer here is actually pretty simple. People are gaslighting and the natural reaction to gaslighting is to confront it and disagree. If you said the sky was yellow people would disagree. That doesn't mean they're fervently defending the idea that the sky is blue, they're just defending their sense of reality. If you stopped gaslighting people (and I mean that in the literal abusive sense) then people would stop defending the cops here. There are reasonable points that you can make about the foster care system or the fact that the cop's first reaction was to pull a gun but when you start trying to criticize the ultimate actions of the police here it just gets crazy. You're either going into a fantasy land where someone can perfectly assess a complex situation in 5 seconds and then act like a movie character or police need to be willing to die rather than ever allow another to be injured (this is contrary to all first responder training, not just police) or you're just saying that you're ok with the girl in pink being stabbed to death. None of these are good faith arguments. This situation is sad and there wasn't a good outcome but the officer didn't have a good outcome to choose from. The critical decisions that generated the situation were out of his control and he had to choose between bad outcomes. It's ok to say that the situation with George Floyd or hundreds of other people were unjustifiable but that this situation was justifiable (but still bad).
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Apr 25, 2021 00:17
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BitcoinRockefeller posted:I think there is a fundamental disconnect with the legal and moral ways people are looking at this. Vahakyla and others have been pretty clear, at least to me, that they think the cop was not necessarily morally correct but made a justified choice because if what he did was illegal then by how the law governs self defense in this country the girl in pink would have done something illegal if she had fought back and killed the person attacking her with a knife. If you think it's not wrong to to use lethal force to defend yourself from an attacker using lethal force, you have to say what the cop did was allowable in that situation or your whole concept of self defense becomes incoherent. I don't think people in this thread will be able to reconcile, because it looks like the camps are split into sides based on "it's morally wrong for the cops to kill people" and "it's morally right to be able to defend yourself (and others, as the laws work) from lethal force with lethal force, and we should consistently apply the law." PT6A posted:The question is: if a police officer believes a murder or gross bodily harm of another person is imminent (as seems plausible given the video), can they and should they fire with lethal intent to prevent it, if they judge that no other means will work?
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Apr 25, 2021 00:37
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