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I'll be honest in the past couple of years, I started purely buying games if I am confident I'll have a reasonable chance of playing them. My groups are very adaptable but there's a lot that will just not interest anyone but me, so I pass.
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Apr 25, 2021 18:18
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Insert “goldrush morality” argument here.
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Apr 25, 2021 20:28
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Nordic Weasel guy posted:I'll be honest in the past couple of years, I started purely buying games if I am confident I'll have a reasonable chance of playing them. My groups are very adaptable but there's a lot that will just not interest anyone but me, so I pass. This kind of thinking only leads to trad gaming being more of a wasteland than it is already. Personally I love supporting smaller creators who are doing something interesting, even if I know whatever game will never see my table. Sometimes game books are cool to read, you know?
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Apr 25, 2021 21:19
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Lord_Hambrose posted:This kind of thinking only leads to trad gaming being more of a wasteland than it is already. Personally I love supporting smaller creators who are doing something interesting, even if I know whatever game will never see my table. They are. But playing them is even cooler. I guess there's some sort of misunderstanding: I am not saying not to buy games, but if my budget has one new game in it, I'm going to pick the one my group will play. Both writers are equally deserving of that money right?
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Apr 25, 2021 22:03
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Lord_Hambrose posted:This kind of thinking only leads to trad gaming being more of a wasteland than it is already. Personally I love supporting smaller creators who are doing something interesting, even if I know whatever game will never see my table. i'm gonna be honest, guilting someone into feeling bad for not buying things they aren't going to use, because someone might make $8 off a pdf sale, is lovely
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Apr 26, 2021 01:11
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SkyeAuroline posted:Backlogs anonymous, on deck. The trouble is always the setup. Probably why lighter stuff seems to make it to the table more for my group(s) even though I like crunch. Right now I'm in the mode of just wanting to *play*, not run, so I have to keep watching for recruitment posts.
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Apr 26, 2021 03:50
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Countblanc posted:i'm gonna be honest, guilting someone into feeling bad for not buying things they aren't going to use, because someone might make $8 off a pdf sale, is lovely It hits a little different when it is a guy who produces pdfs for a living. Nordic Weasel guy posted:They are. But playing them is even cooler. Oh definitely, people should buy what they can for sure. I just think that for almost every person the ability to support creators far out strips any person's ability to play games. Unless you just do tons of one shots constantly (which is rad) any person in a long term campaign or two would never be spending money on the hobby in your world. Lord_Hambrose fucked around with this message at 11:57 on Apr 26, 2021 |
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Apr 26, 2021 11:54
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Lord_Hambrose posted:Oh definitely, people should buy what they can for sure. I just think that for almost every person the ability to support creators far out strips any person's ability to play games. Unless you just do tons of one shots constantly (which is rad) any person in a long term campaign or two would never be spending money on the hobby in your world. The problem is that following this rule introduces the "lemon problem" to RPGs. It indirectly rewards creators for not doing the difficult bits of making a game as opposed to a book - playtesting, balancing, etc - because skipping them reduces the author's costs and production time, and if this rule is in force, they'll still get just as many sales. That means that the ultimate state is that the market outside of the "big names" who can stand out, is flooded with unplayable games. And the damage done by a lemony market is massive - just witness the mess it made of computer gaming.
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Apr 26, 2021 13:13
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I don't think it's possible to introduce that problem to RPGs.
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Apr 26, 2021 13:20
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I absolutely follow the "not buying it unless I'm pretty sure I'm going to play it" rule for board games. I might still follow it for RPGs if I wasn't actively designing them. The fact that I'm designing them means that a) I like to read a bunch of them to keep up with the latest developments in the art, and b) I can write them off as business expenses on my taxes, so I effectively get a discount on them. So I end up buying quite a few games I know I won't play. I'd like to buy even more to support more artists, but I do still have a budget. I'm not made of money. And Hyphz, I don't think there's any risk of introducing the lemon problem beyond what already exists. There are plenty of unplaytested games with cool premises and poo poo mechanics already, and they serve their purpose in the hobby as people read them and have fun reading and imagining, and then adapt those ideas to whatever system they're used to using (usually 5e lol). Some people seek out games and supplements based solely on their premise, and get what they are looking for. I'm closer to the opposite - since I'm reading games to inform my design, I'm always down to read something with the innovative and fun mechanics even if the premise is kind of poo poo.
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Apr 26, 2021 13:38
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I buy plenty of RPGs that I know will likely never hit my table. Sometimes it's because I want to strip-mine the game for mechanics (Sentinel Comics, Flying Circus), sometimes it's because I just want to read a beautiful book (Ultraviolet Grasslands, Wanderhome) and sometimes it's because I really like what the creator has done in the past and want to continue to support them (Voidheart Symphony, Wolves of God). I will almost never buy an $8 PDF on itch. The bar for "I'm buying even though I know I won't be playing" is so much higher, and I don't think most people can hit that bar with a game that costs $8 unless it's a true zeitgeist and I just need to know what all the talk is about. I've actually started curating a list of creators (~10 right now), who I buy their stuff sight unseen. They no longer have to sell me - I'll buy their stuff until I'm burned. Edit: And good golly, I googled McJanda to see what she's up to and just saw she joined Rowan, Rook, and Decard. https://rowanrookanddecard.com/welcoming-minerva-mcjanda-to-the-team/ That's industry news!
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Apr 26, 2021 14:05
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CitizenKeen posted:I buy plenty of RPGs that I know will likely never hit my table. Absolutely. It's also possible to get ideas and inspiration from reading a game that you don't end up playing and use those in another game.
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Apr 26, 2021 15:19
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hyphz posted:The problem is that following this rule introduces the "lemon problem" to RPGs. It indirectly rewards creators for not doing the difficult bits of making a game as opposed to a book - playtesting, balancing, etc - because skipping them reduces the author's costs and production time, and if this rule is in force, they'll still get just as many sales. That means that the ultimate state is that the market outside of the "big names" who can stand out, is flooded with unplayable games. And the damage done by a lemony market is massive - just witness the mess it made of computer gaming. This argument might hold more merit if the history of TRPGs wasn't littered with slick, glossy, professionally-produced games with plenty of ostensible playtest and development time that still sucked massive amounts of poo poo. There's no actual objective measure of elfgame quality you can compare a given RPG to, and even if there was a lot of the big names would get some pretty bad marks for a lot of the products they've released. I'm sure Cthulhutech had playtesting at one point too. Like drat man you get ragged on for having some baffling takes but "buying a game you don't wind up playing because you feel like supporting the creator will directly contribute to the downfall of the hobby" is legitimately just real bad.
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Apr 26, 2021 15:55
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Lord_Hambrose posted:
Here's the thing I think is missing in the conversation: RPG's are not my primary hobby. They are /a/ hobby among a few I pursue (retro computing, indie bands, amateur history, miniatures. a little bit of video games) along with things I purchase for professional reasons (wargames, military history books). If I intend to blow 100 dollars on hobby stuff next month, it's as likely to be 15mm scifi mini's, some one man dungeon synth albums off Bandcamp or some garage-build Commodore kit as it is RPG books. I'm not prescribing what anyone should or shouldn't do.
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Apr 26, 2021 16:42
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That increasingly large domino meme but the bottom says "backing Precious Little Animals because Alex Roberts is a friend" and the top says "D&D somehow gets worse." Then again something's made most of the big ticket games suck so it's as good of a theory as anything else.
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Apr 26, 2021 16:51
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I suppose a simpler way to settle this question is to determine what is the required dollar amount annually to "support the hobby"? I looked at my paypal and I've spent 288 dollars (roughly, eye-balling some currency conversions) on RPG stuff so far this year. That's about 70 bucks a month, though it's skewed by a few big splurges and then two months of not buying anything. edit: Shipping is a bunch of that, so let's call it 200 to be fair. Nordic Weasel guy fucked around with this message at 17:33 on Apr 26, 2021 |
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Apr 26, 2021 17:03
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tithing, but for nerds. you can do it after tax though, games come after caesar.
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Apr 26, 2021 19:50
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Nordic Weasel guy posted:I suppose a simpler way to settle this question is to determine what is the required dollar amount annually to "support the hobby"? None of this has anything to do with "most people can play far fewer games than they can buy." You're arguing against a position you've completely invented.
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Apr 26, 2021 19:54
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I feel like the 'people produce shiny games that are bad' is in fact a problem, but it's really not a problem at the level of indie creators most of the time. Something like Degenesis, or Monte Cook's oeuvre, or even Maze of the Blue Medusa, is an example of 'lots of shiny art, bad game' and it's really not something that would be fixed by cutting out the entire indie sphere of made-but-not-much-played. If anything, it would exacerbate the problem, because the problem doesn't stem from a 'lemony market' it stems from people being used to seeing D&D as the standard of quality despite its quality being primarily shininess. The problem isn't glut, it's that visible examples people get into the hobby on are Kai Tave posted:slick, glossy, professionally-produced games with plenty of ostensible playtest and development time that still sucked massive amounts of poo poo.
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Apr 26, 2021 20:10
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Kai Tave posted:Like drat man you get ragged on for having some baffling takes but "buying a game you don't wind up playing because you feel like supporting the creator will directly contribute to the downfall of the hobby" is legitimately just real bad. Except that isn't what I said. I wasn't complaining about someone who singly chooses to do that; I was arguing against Lord_Hambrose's assertion that players have a moral duty to buy games they don't expect to play - not just "that they don't wind up playing", but that they know in advance they never will play - because the sum of individual levels of demand for games to play, rather than to read, is too low to sustain the number of authors in the market.
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Apr 26, 2021 20:14
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I've noticed an increasing number of art books with a lite game attached, stuff like Mörk Börg or MOTHERSHIP where it's basically a zine with a rad aesthetic. They're not really breaking new ground wrt design, but I'll support stuff like that over 45 new spells for D&D 5e anyway.
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Apr 26, 2021 20:19
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Even if it was true that there is a systemic problem whereby "buying pdfs of games you don't intend to play because you want to support the author" leads to a market full of lemons... It's not an individual's responsibility to change their behaviour to fix a systemic problem. And in fact, changing their behaviour by definition cannot fix that systemic problem. That is what systemic means! This is the same thing where politicians get up and say that there is a systemic problem with some part of society... and so it's very important that we all do our part as individuals. That's just not how it works! That is not how systems work. Excluding going on bike rides for exercise, I have left my house about 20 times in the past year, always wearing a mask. And yet, COVID still exists. I'm not saying there's anything wrong with "doing your part." I try to do my part. But I don't believe that any of our long-standing problems can be fixed just by everyone doing their part. If you want to support an indie designer and you have the means to do it, please do it! I promise that your individual $15 won't destroy the hobby. And it will mean a lot to the creator you are supporting.
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Apr 26, 2021 20:26
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Lemon-Lime posted:None of this has anything to do with "most people can play far fewer games than they can buy." You're arguing against a position you've completely invented. You know what, let's just say you are correct and let this drop. I am getting that feeling that either I explained my point poorly or people are arguing about something that wasn't said or both. Entirely possible it is my fault. So I'll bow out and let people have their say. Nordic Weasel guy fucked around with this message at 20:59 on Apr 26, 2021 |
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Apr 26, 2021 20:54
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Nordic Weasel guy posted:You know what, let's just say you are correct and let this drop.
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Apr 26, 2021 21:14
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Jimbozig posted:I promise that your individual $15 won't destroy the hobby. And it will mean a lot to the creator you are supporting. This is true and important. "I will buy this game and, eh, maybe play it someday" is a perfectly good reason to support an indie artist, and the scene of TTRPG creation being open to more people is in fact good. Sure, a lot of mediocre stuff will be created, but the negative effects of that are... what, more cruft? D&D won't be changed by it and that is the dragon we would need to slay to change things re: shiny bad games, anyways.
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Apr 26, 2021 21:19
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https://twitter.com/moricalliope/status/1386949086872408066 Wondering if this might end up blowing even some of the big name streamer groups out of the water in terms of numbers.
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Apr 27, 2021 12:31
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Mors Rattus posted:https://twitter.com/moricalliope/status/1386949086872408066 Yes, absolutely it will, vtubers are insanely popular
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Apr 27, 2021 12:51
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Piell posted:Yes, absolutely it will, vtubers are insanely popular What is a vtuber? What is a Holomyth? Please explain for the older folks in the room.
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Apr 27, 2021 13:01
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CitizenKeen posted:What is a vtuber? A vtuber is a streamer who instead of using their real face uses a virtual avatar (generally an anime girl) mapped to their facial movements. Holomyth are a group of vtubers
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Apr 27, 2021 13:07
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Streamers that use a anime character rigged to match their movements. Like a facecam, but anime. Calli, the Storyteller from the tweet, has around 1.3 million subscribers on youtube for context. Her group, Hololive English, or HoloMyth, has 4 other members. Gura, one of the others, has well over 2.5 million subscribers. So yeah, pretty big audience. Wouldn't be surprised if Hunter the Vigil starts getting a huuuge price hike this month. Edit: The group is the English branch of their company, but it was originally a Japanese company. Some of the other members have run Call of Cthulhu in the past, to give you an expectation on the numbers a loving Hunter the Vigil group might get in 2021. Hiro Protagonist fucked around with this message at 13:27 on Apr 27, 2021 |
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Apr 27, 2021 13:10
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Finding out about vtubers was when I officially figured out I'm old.
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Apr 27, 2021 13:10
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dwarf74 posted:Finding out about vtubers was when I officially figured out I'm old. There is so much poo poo in the world that I could not care less about that I pay aggressive attention to, because I don't want to be a wildly out of touch parent, just a mildly out of touch one.
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Apr 27, 2021 13:21
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For additional additional context, CoC is also insanely popular in Japan. From what I understand, it's the default "Run whatever" system there much like people use D&D to run murder mysteries and gothic romances in the US. So it's not like HoloJapan is what put CoC on the map. But yeah, if you run World of Darkness or Hunter games, you might want to watch highlights or something so that you know what the influx of new players are talking about. Edit: a person using an avatar to represent their entertainment persona who is playing a fictional character. Signs and signifiers upon signs and signifiers. Tibalt fucked around with this message at 13:54 on Apr 27, 2021 |
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Apr 27, 2021 13:52
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Somewhere RPG Pundit just had a stroke.
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Apr 27, 2021 14:52
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Tibalt posted:Edit: a person using an avatar to represent their entertainment persona who is playing a fictional character. Signs and signifiers upon signs and signifiers. Unknown
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Apr 27, 2021 14:57
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Dawgstar posted:Somewhere RPG Pundit just had a stroke. He seems like the type to have a hentai fetish and feel burning shame and rage about it, yeah.
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Apr 27, 2021 17:31
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He's some kind of weird Nazi sex mystic so I'm pretty sure the differences between him and Satanis are mainly a matter of style.
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Apr 27, 2021 17:43
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Kurieg posted:Unknown whoa
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Apr 27, 2021 18:15
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Halloween Jack posted:He's some kind of weird Nazi sex mystic so I'm pretty sure the differences between him and Satanis are mainly a matter of style. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=udpYpsTuQf4
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Apr 27, 2021 19:29
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dwarf74 posted:Finding out about vtubers was when I officially figured out I'm old. It was one of those points where I was like "poo poo, cyberpunk happened when I wasn't looking." Those are coming increasingly frequently, which is worrying.
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Apr 27, 2021 20:04
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