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if they don't have money to hire you i would price in a bunch of "i won't get paid" risk
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Apr 27, 2021 11:28
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m0therfux0r posted:I did a contract (W2- not 1099) to hire conversion a couple years ago. You can negotiate, but it's *very very very* limited because you basically have no BATNA. This covers a lot of my concerns. I guess I'll be requiring a pretty high compensation rate for the contract to have any kind of chance at a competitive offer afterwards.
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Apr 27, 2021 18:35
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My current situation, in case it’s of any help: working one full time position, was going to move to another at a new company via “temp/contract-to-hire” as of last November (new company apparently do no direct hiring these days). I’ve actually been working both as the second agreed to be super flexible owing to family/insurance circumstances at time of “hire” to lead into bringing me on full time benefits (staffing agency’s benefits are terrible). Fast forward to now and they don’t have the position to bring me on (and no idea when that might be). However they’re asking me to dump my current job and go full time in the office 6/1. This position was slightly above a lateral move (I really feel like I should’ve cut the staffing agency out by now but I worry on the direct contract side too). I want to sit and discuss with them about staying flexible, otherwise it seems crazy to drop all my benefits for a potential open position sometime down the road. Luckily I’m not out on my rear end if I walk and I’ve been lucky to be able to swing both, just be aware of the risks.
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Apr 28, 2021 18:01
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Don't do it. Unless you know someone who works there or it's known that it's basically a guarantee that you'll be converted to full time/permanent, I've seen tons of people get to the end of their contract and just have the contract extended instead of being hired. Even at a company that is known to hire on contractors pretty much every time, it's still a risk- especially in a year (years?) where companies can infinitely use a "we just don't have the money to bring you on because business hasn't recovered from COVID" excuse (which is a bullshit excuse since between you and the temp agency they're probably already paying 2x your salary). But yeah, I have seen the "we'll probably hire you after 6 months" get extended to 9 months, a year, 2 years, and then totally laid off multiple times at multiple companies. Edit: To clarify, I mean don't leave a full time job for a contract/temp to hire job. If you're unemployed or already just in a contract job, go for it if it seems promising. m0therfux0r fucked around with this message at 23:24 on Apr 28, 2021 |
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Apr 28, 2021 19:10
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Yeah, "contract-to-hire" jobs often never quite get around to the "-to-hire" part. Stringing you along with a promise that a full-time position with benefits is juuuuust around the corner is SOP for a lot of companies.
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Apr 28, 2021 19:23
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I’ve been W-2 contract for about a year and half now. There was an effort to bring me on, but they worked very hard to make the process incredibly tedious. They also made it very clear they were reducing my salary once I’d jumped through the hoops. I took the hint and stayed contract. This position was a huge bump in compensation for me, so I don’t regret taking it. That said, even though I’m making more than enough to compensate for holidays or PTO, I still end up convincing myself to make up hours. I simply can’t justify passing up hundreds of dollars to not work on the Saturday after Christmas. I have had two weeks in this job that weren’t 40 hours, and no weeks that were less than 30. It’s a lovely way to work and I highly recommend not doing it unless they’re shoveling money at you.
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Apr 28, 2021 22:26
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m0therfux0r posted:But yeah, I have seen the "we'll probably hire you after 6 months" get extended to 9 months, a year, 2 years, and then totally laid off multiple times at multiple companies. Is there any way to mitigate this when you make or create the contract? Whether its a bonus at end, contract completion, or a resigning penalty?
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Apr 29, 2021 03:34
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This company has been harder hit than most, but in watching their board meeting the other day, CEO even said they will strictly not pursue adding headcount (mine would be a new position) and the financials look pretty bad through FY 23. I don’t doubt their sincerity in wanting someone in the role and their goodwill but as a lateral move, meh. I’d love to keep doing both but if push comes to shove, I’ll keep my primary as it’s not so bad as it used to be and pay/workload ratio turns out pretty nicely at present (with actual benefits).
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Apr 29, 2021 05:33
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TheParadigm posted:Is there any way to mitigate this when you make or create the contract? Maybe if you're a literally a 1099 contractor/consultant. Through a temp agency (which is what jobs listed specifically as contract-to-hire tend to be), I highly doubt it.
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Apr 29, 2021 14:29
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Yeah a temp service is just gonna tell you to gently caress off. They only have so much margin they are working with and you aren't going to cut into it.
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Apr 29, 2021 22:35
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Well, this is interesting. I’m being asked to move countries to one with a much higher tax rate, not being tax adjusted and getting my (frankly absurdly high; they’re not lying when they say the other department heads would be pissed off if they knew) salary rebased down in line with my actual title, off the back of a bruising 2020 review. The only upside is keeping my unvested options (which for various reasons do have actual value). The next tranche vests...soon. I have a plan for dealing with this. Will know by Monday if it worked or if I have an exciting new career in menial labour. Either way there should be interesting negotiation thoughts to share for anyone else in the scenario “I’m not underpaid, but nobody else is paid to care about my contribution”.
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Apr 30, 2021 03:18
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Just got off the phone with a recruiter who was asking me, "Do you have experience in this, in this, in this?" And I answered, yes, no, yes, yes, no, etc. So she starts off the call this way. Then she asks my salary expectations. There hasn't been any discussion on what the job entails yet. I give the usual, that I'm not comfortable discussing salary until I know what the job entails and looking at the whole picture, blah blah blah. She picked up on me mentioning benefits so she just starts listing them over the phone, like copays and things like that. This is the second time this has happened to me on a first interview. At some point I interrupt her and say, "I'm sorry, but I'm not going to discuss salary on the first phone call." And she just kept pushing and pushing. I feel like I was polite but I just had to hang up. Yeah my desire for a new job is pretty high but at some point I told myself that I'm tired of being the desperate pitiful piss ant when it comes to looking for one.
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Apr 30, 2021 19:47
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Good choice then. Also sounds like a fairly bad recruiter just running through a checklist and then jumping to salary. They're selling you too, especially if you're already employed with decent demand for labor. Idk the turnover by number but it's pretty high in recruiting. So you're going to talk to a lot of people bad at their jobs in that first conversation.
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Apr 30, 2021 20:00
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The more I read here and get a bit of experience with these things, the more I think that outsourcing recruitment is one of the worst things you could do as any size company.
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Apr 30, 2021 20:07
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Zapf Dingbat posted:Just got off the phone with a recruiter who was asking me, "Do you have experience in this, in this, in this?" And I answered, yes, no, yes, yes, no, etc. So she starts off the call this way. Then she asks my salary expectations. There hasn't been any discussion on what the job entails yet. I give the usual, that I'm not comfortable discussing salary until I know what the job entails and looking at the whole picture, blah blah blah. I highly recommend profanity in these cases.
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Apr 30, 2021 20:17
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Absurd Alhazred posted:The more I read here and get a bit of experience with these things, the more I think that outsourcing recruitment is one of the worst things you could do as any size company. I’m guessing keeping HR people worth a drat isn’t easy either? It honestly makes me wonder when I see companies that do it. Like ok, maybe that tactic is fine for sourcing entry level jobs with tons of mediocre applicants but at higher levels? Seems like you’d want an internal team. I’m sure it’s a cost thing but I wish more of the $ got passed along to the actual worker (that’s a separate issue, really).
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Apr 30, 2021 20:21
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Yeah as someone who has worked in HR for several years now I can anecdotally say a lot of HR people don't know jack poo poo and are bad at their jobs. Also got told this gem today after asking why my expense reimbursement regarding travel for my initial interview was lower than expected "oh it's company policy we don't reimburse for tips (uh cheap but ok I guess) or taxes (excuse me what?)." "Ok so what happens if I didn't take the position? Would you have expected me to be out that money flying here for an interview?" "Well paid for travel with interviewing is typically only reserved for CEOs, it's rare that occurs outside of the CEO level"  this was a real conversation with a CFO.
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Apr 30, 2021 20:37
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I understand that recruiting is technically a component of HR, but I think outsourcing stuff like benefits management, payroll, etc, is not quite as bad.
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Apr 30, 2021 21:01
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Absurd Alhazred posted:I understand that recruiting is technically a component of HR, but I think outsourcing stuff like benefits management, payroll, etc, is not quite as bad. Outsourcing routine management is fine, both in HR and finances, especially if you can't justify a full time staff for it. Recruitment is not routine though, and the recruiter should have some feel for both the business and the subject matter of the position. All of the interviews I've done have had the immediate superior as the interviewer, which just makes sense.
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Apr 30, 2021 21:16
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Absurd Alhazred posted:I understand that recruiting is technically a component of HR, but I think outsourcing stuff like benefits management, payroll, etc, is not quite as bad. yeah for sure, this stuff tends to be done very competently by outsource companies because it's entirely mechanical. there's no strategy to it at all.
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Apr 30, 2021 21:17
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At this point in my career I basically won't work with an outsourced recruiter. Anywhere worth working knows to invest in recruiting because in this market and industry you have to sell candidates on your company as much or more than the candidates need to impress the company. I don't care if they outsource payroll and benefits admin as long as they are competent at it. It's either correct or incorrect. But outsourced recruiting is a quick way to get good candidates to totally ignore you. At the very least, if you must outsource recruiting, give them an @company.com email and allow them to tell candidates who the hell they are recruiting for. If you contact me with "my client has an opportunity" without telling me who it is your message goes straight into the trash. Edit: forgot this isn't just a computer-toucher thread but talking about experienced engineers and tech companies Guinness fucked around with this message at 21:27 on Apr 30, 2021 |
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Apr 30, 2021 21:25
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My experience with a recruiter yesterday ruled. An internal guy who based on LinkedIn is pretty senior, we talked high level about the job and about if I saw myself as a fit, and in terms of salary he asked if I had a range and when I said it depends he told me the minimum for the position and started talking about RSUs and bonuses. Certainly one of the better experiences I’ve had with recruiters. I try to avoid phone calls for anything but serious / internal recruiters though. I’ve only talked to one external guy in the last year and that’s mostly because we have talked before. And even then I knew who he was hiring for.
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Apr 30, 2021 21:47
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Jordan7hm posted:My experience with a recruiter yesterday ruled. An internal guy who based on LinkedIn is pretty senior, we talked high level about the job and about if I saw myself as a fit, and in terms of salary he asked if I had a range and when I said it depends he told me the minimum for the position and started talking about RSUs and bonuses. Bingo. You turn down 99 recruiters so you can eventually find this gem
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Apr 30, 2021 22:57
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Parallelwoody posted:Yeah as someone who has worked in HR for several years now I can anecdotally say a lot of HR people don't know jack poo poo and are bad at their jobs. Also got told this gem today after asking why my expense reimbursement regarding travel for my initial interview was lower than expected "oh it's company policy we don't reimburse for tips (uh cheap but ok I guess) or taxes (excuse me what?)." "Ok so what happens if I didn't take the position? Would you have expected me to be out that money flying here for an interview?" "Well paid for travel with interviewing is typically only reserved for CEOs, it's rare that occurs outside of the CEO level" I had a place have me drive 7 hours to them (way faster than flying with 2 connections) and only end up paying for my hotel. You can guess that my broke rear end college self was pretty pissed and turned down their offer immediately (luckily I had 4 other offers).
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Apr 30, 2021 23:31
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Did they tell you that beforehand? Because I specifically asked based on language I got in here. I'm just kinda floored that this lady thinks only CEOs get flown out to interview. Maybe I understood her wrong but the way she phrased it and talked about it afterwards I don't think she meant just for my employer, I think she meant period.
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May 1, 2021 00:39
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How the gently caress is not reimbursing taxes suppose to work? No one is going to pay 5-10% of the cost of business travel and this is on top of being skinflint and not reimbursing tips.
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May 1, 2021 00:50
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It's a non profit so the excuse I got was "well since we don't pay taxes it's against our policy to reimburse them." Uh ok I'll make my boss deal with it when he's back. When they initially said it I only heard tips. Mind you, I never even submitted food, it was solely tips to the Lyft drivers to and from the airport. So to actually add content, make sure the terms of reimbursement are spelled out beforehand I guess, even if it is an interview. When I half laughed at her and said if someone expected me to pay for my own long distance interview travel, I would just decline the position, her next response was "well don't slam the door on an opportunity just because they make you pay for travel." I believe we have different opinions on what an "opportunity" consists of.
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May 1, 2021 01:14
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Non-profits are frequently terrible and exploit people under the guise of "supporting the mission". Low pay, long hours, stupid policies especially in relation to costs. But of course not at the executive level, because you have to compete for talented execs but not for talented employees or something. It sucks that it be that way since it'd be nice to work on something meaningful that you really believe in without sacrificing your own well being so significantly. But 
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May 1, 2021 01:26
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Sorry, should have mentioned: non profit healthcare (insert meme wink lady) So I felt it might be a little different.
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May 1, 2021 01:30
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maybe software is different but i vastly prefer external recruiters to internal. the external ones have a way better sense of market value and do a way better job of pitching me jobs i might actually want to do. they're also way more motivated to actually keep the process on rails than internal recruiters. internal recruiters just shotgun me with every opening they got that has a couple keyword matches with my resume because they get paid whether i reply or not
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May 1, 2021 04:15
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e: wrong thread
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May 1, 2021 07:07
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Parallelwoody posted:Did they tell you that beforehand? Because I specifically asked based on language I got in here. I'm just kinda floored that this lady thinks only CEOs get flown out to interview. Maybe I understood her wrong but the way she phrased it and talked about it afterwards I don't think she meant just for my employer, I think she meant period. My brother is a dipshit computer toucher and he's been flown to multiple interviews. I'm just a dipshit and said " if I drive it will be way cheaper even if you pay for one night in a hotel, which I want" and they did.
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May 1, 2021 07:29
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I'm computer-toucher adjacent and I've always had travel reimbursed at all levels in my career so far.
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May 1, 2021 11:25
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the talent deficit posted:maybe software is different but i vastly prefer external recruiters to internal. the external ones have a way better sense of market value and do a way better job of pitching me jobs i might actually want to do. they're also way more motivated to actually keep the process on rails than internal recruiters. internal recruiters just shotgun me with every opening they got that has a couple keyword matches with my resume because they get paid whether i reply or not Good external recruiters are amazing and can help you develop your career across multiple jobs. Most of them aren't good. Only way I know to find the good ones are personal referrals and just accepting the intro conversations.
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May 1, 2021 13:01
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Now that everything's being done remotely I doubt I'll "get" to travel for interviews.
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May 1, 2021 16:09
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If you're resigning but you're owed a bonus that pays out on X date, it's really stupid to resign with 2 weeks notice about 1.5 weeks before that date right? Money has to be in the account or it's a big potential risk is my gut feel on that. 
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May 1, 2021 23:12
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former glory posted:If you're resigning but you're owed a bonus that pays out on X date, it's really stupid to resign with 2 weeks notice about 1.5 weeks before that date right? Money has to be in the account or it's a big potential risk is my gut feel on that. Having been there, yes. Push your start date and wait until the cash is in your account.
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May 1, 2021 23:22
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former glory posted:If you're resigning but you're owed a bonus that pays out on X date, it's really stupid to resign with 2 weeks notice about 1.5 weeks before that date right? Money has to be in the account or it's a big potential risk is my gut feel on that. It really depends on your shop and the rapport you have with your boss. When I recently switched jobs my former company was in an unusual financial position and was pushing back bonus payouts over and over again. I was able to push my start date back once but after the bonus was delayed again I just said 'gently caress it' and put in my notice. My boss said we'd keep it between us and we'd hold off on telling HR about me leaving until the end of the year so that I'd be able to get not only my bonus but also my 401k vestment for the year as well. It can't hurt to let your new employer know that you have a large chunk of cash coming if you can wait a few weeks. If they're not shitlords they should be fine pushing the start date back a bit.
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May 2, 2021 00:42
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Some companies are super vindictive about things once notice has been put in. Legendarily (as in: possibly bullshit, but it matches with everything else I've heard from the company), a senior programmer once put in his notice at Rockstar after the title he was working on had gone gold, but before the release date. Rockstar put out a day 0 patch to pull his name from the credits and denied him his ship bonus even though he was still an employee in the company on the dates the title shipped and bonuses paid out. Just as you always wait for things to be in writing and signed before starting moving arrangements, always get your money before you leave. Putting trust in an HR department to act with kindness or humanity is a fool's errand.
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May 2, 2021 09:42
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I did exactly this, last month. You’re going to want to look at your contract. I worked at a Big 4 accounting firm and planned to move to another Big 4, which customarily results in being locked out within a few days of alerting them. I had a $18k bonus due April 15, and a second ~$1.5k bonus due April 30, both contingent on being employed as of that date. So I took a look at my contract, and saw that I would still be paid for the entirety of the notice period even if I was locked out. I gave notice April 15 at 5pm after confirming I had the money in my bank account (and moved it to be safe lol), with an effective date of May 1. They locked me out April 21. Checked my paycheck Friday, and there was my 4/30 bonus.
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May 2, 2021 12:16
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