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Wow she looks amazing! What an adorable photo thank you 
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Apr 28, 2021 16:19
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Those women apparently never age
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Apr 28, 2021 16:24
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MikeJF posted:People comparing Section 31's DS9 version to JSOC are missing the point: section 31 wasn't just secretive and highly classified, it was illegitimate. As of DS9 it was basically a cabal of people who used a flimsy reading of a clause in the starfleet charter to perform actions outside the law 'for the greater good' with no formal agency within Starfleet. The difference between Starfleet Intelligence and Section 31 is that Starfleet Intelligence was a proper Starfleet agency and bound by their rules, and Section 31 was just a bunch of guys who thought rules were for losers. Kurzon fucked around with this message at 18:37 on Apr 28, 2021 |
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Apr 28, 2021 18:13
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FlamingLiberal posted:Those women apparently never age I'm sure Terry Farrell being literally allergic to direct sunlight helps her skin stay in good condition!
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Apr 28, 2021 18:15
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Kurzon posted:If Section 31 was illegal, who was funding them, who was giving them legal authority and protection to do their dirty work? The idea of a totally illegal secret spy agency sounds cool but I don't think it could work in practice. It a cashless, post scarcity society, wouldn't it only take getting the equipment necessary? You just need one StarFleet admiral supporting you.
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Apr 28, 2021 18:39
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I don't know what "cashless" is supposed to mean but the Federation still operates on limited resources like any other society, and Section 31 must get its resources from somewhere.
Kurzon fucked around with this message at 18:51 on Apr 28, 2021 |
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Apr 28, 2021 18:46
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For all we know, Section 31 is literally one guy manipulating Star Fleet officers to do henious poo poo.
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Apr 28, 2021 18:52
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Burning_Monk posted:For all we know, Section 31 is literally one guy manipulating Star Fleet officers to do henious poo poo. But they had all those hella cool ships and black uniforms!!!
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Apr 28, 2021 19:03
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Kurzon posted:If Section 31 was illegal, who was funding them, who was giving them legal authority and protection to do their dirty work? The idea of a totally illegal secret spy agency sounds cool but I don't think it could work in practice. The impression I got was that most of Section 31 was people inside Starfleet intelligence and other agencies able to manipulate orders within the agencies and direct resources and cover up that they're doing so; that most of Section 31's actions in the 24th century incarnation are being carried out by/disguised as the actions of legitimate agencies and then Section 31's agents carry out the final steps of things. It's established they have agents well-placed in every part of Starfleet, and Sloan described things at one point: There is no building, no room like this in the real world. Section Thirty One has no headquarters. These files, they exist only in the minds of a very select group of people, and I happen to be one of them. MikeJF fucked around with this message at 19:18 on Apr 28, 2021 |
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Apr 28, 2021 19:14
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Brawnfire posted:But they had all those hella cool ships and black uniforms!!! *Doesn't look like anything to me.*
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Apr 28, 2021 19:21
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Kurzon posted:If Section 31 was illegal, who was funding them, who was giving them legal authority and protection to do their dirty work? The idea of a totally illegal secret spy agency sounds cool but I don't think it could work in practice. They were funding themselves (so much as such a thing is even necessary in the Federation) and nobody was giving them legal authority or protection, they were rogues. All they need is a couple of powerful benefactors and well-placed people who they've converted to their cause. Sloan considered Julian to be a 31 Agent just because he could manipulate him into going along with them from time to time. Also, as we saw later, the thing that really made 31 so powerful in the Dominion War in particular was Starfleet and the Federation being desperate enough to look the other way. They of course SAY that they don't approve of what 31 has done, but when Julian works to UNDO it he's threatened and stonewalled because they're doing it to the enemy. As Odo says "Its a tidy little arrangement." Sanguinia fucked around with this message at 20:11 on Apr 28, 2021 |
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Apr 28, 2021 20:09
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Kurzon posted:I don't know what "cashless" is supposed to mean but the Federation still operates on limited resources like any other society, and Section 31 must get its resources from somewhere. embezzlement.
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Apr 28, 2021 20:19
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Section 31 gets their resources from their control of The Orion Syndicate
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Apr 28, 2021 21:02
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Didn't they have an agent as the literal head of the Tal Shiar? I don't think resources was an issue.
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Apr 28, 2021 21:43
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Kurzon posted:Since we're talking about the morality of genocide, I should point out that the attempted genocide of the Founders was at least utilitarian. It was decisive to winning the Dominion War. By contrast, the Holocaust had no practical benefit for Germany, if anything it was counter-productive because it consumed a lot of resources and manpower and the Jews weren't actually a threat at all. The "necessary evil" dilemma that Star Trek DS9 so loved just wasn't there with the Holocaust, it was stupid evil. Was every single Founder part of the Dominion's leadership hierarchy? There wasn't one who was just "I mean, I live here, but I'm not involved in any of this poo poo."
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Apr 28, 2021 22:01
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V-Men posted:Was every single Founder part of the Dominion's leadership hierarchy? There wasn't one who was just "I mean, I live here, but I'm not involved in any of this poo poo." The impression we were given in the show is the Great Link is some kind of shared single consciousness. And from outside: Ronald D. Moore stated, "The Great Link rules the Dominion and I think the Female Shapeshifter has said that there is very seldom any dissension in the Link. She is not the leader and presumably they all share power jointly." (AOL chat, 1997)
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Apr 28, 2021 22:04
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Kurzon posted:I don't know what "cashless" is supposed to mean but the Federation still operates on limited resources like any other society, and Section 31 must get its resources from somewhere. You can do a lot with "limited resources" given: 1) Industrial replicators 2) Every replicator pattern, ever, including the ones that are banned for good reason 3) Dilithium S31 has ready access to all 1) and 3), and probably 2) based on what we've seen on-screen vis a vis proscribed mindreading technologies, among others. I suspect that S31 is probably a major concentrator of classified technologies that were deemed too dangerous or disruptive to release to the Federation at large, giving them a vast and dangerous potential toybox to play with. They're the sort of paternalistic authoritarians that would absolutely inhibit the Federation's technological growth out of a desire to control rather than maintain stability. Of course, if they need self-sealing stembolts to maintain those replicators, they might need to talk to Quark.
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Apr 28, 2021 22:29
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Grand Fromage posted:The impression we were given in the show is the Great Link is some kind of shared single consciousness. I figure it's a lot like the Borg, I always got the sense that dissension is less like "we want to do things differently" as it is like having a second, less favored option in the back of your mind. If more Founders find the unfavorable plan favorable, the Founders as a whole would change it collective view as representing the majority, as easily as an individual in our society reevaluates their plan based on new info.
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Apr 28, 2021 22:57
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Delsaber posted:Vincent AdultChangeling 'I was down at the Link today. I had to do a shapeshifting."
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Apr 29, 2021 00:16
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I wonder if you were going to free the Jem Hadar whether you'd want to muck around with their genetics to make them more able to build an independent society, just like how the Founders hosed around with them to make them more aggressive and servile. Potentially their aggression may be related to their ultra-puberty and maybe even if a Jem Hadar gets to live to the ripe old age of 20 they may be able to grow out of it.
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Apr 29, 2021 04:47
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Ah poo poo, I changed my av and lost my EXPERIENCE BIJ gangtag
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Apr 29, 2021 05:20
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I'm on an nth rewatch of Voyager and only just now realized that in Season 3 they create a very weird plot hole/instance of timespace fuckery: in the episode where Kes does a Benjamin Button, traveling back in time from the future, Voyager encounters the Krenim and their temporal weaponry, directly discussing the Year of Hell, but a few episodes later, Kes ends up throwing Voyager several thousand lightyears through the Delta quadrant, so the Krenim and the Year of Hell are somehow in a totally different region of space, and none of the crew remember the name Krenim or anything about them when Year of Hell actually happens, even though Janeway specifically requests that Kes file a report about the possible timelines she lived through.
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Apr 29, 2021 05:43
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You just thought about that far more than any of the Voyager writers did.
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Apr 29, 2021 05:47
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It's just such a weird thing for them to have done, I wonder if it was some weird side effect of the plot development of the actual Year of Hell episodes and the writers not anticipating Kes getting written off the show.
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Apr 29, 2021 05:53
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Voyager launched with an undetected slow gas leak that caused people to forget things or act strangely at random intervals until they finally got home and some dockworker tightened the valve.
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Apr 29, 2021 06:00
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Delsaber posted:Voyager launched with an undetected slow gas leak that caused people to forget things or act strangely at random intervals until they finally got home and some dockworker tightened the valve. This reminds me that I went to one of the first, if not the first, Star Trek convention the Voyager cast attended and during a panel with the whole cast, some nerd asked Jennifer Lien a typical, extremely specific question about Kes and she just went "Uh. Um. Uhhhh." for like ten seconds until Robert Duncan McNeil or someone said, "Jen's plane lost oxygen on the flight over, everybody." In retrospect, that may have been a bit yikes. At the same convention, they announced Garrett Wang and pronounced his last name like Vera Wang and he immediately turned on his mic from off-stage and said, "No! 'Wang' is wong!" and that was a pretty effective mnemonic.
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Apr 29, 2021 06:52
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Hubbardologist posted:I'm on an nth rewatch of Voyager and only just now realized that in Season 3 they create a very weird plot hole/instance of timespace fuckery: in the episode where Kes does a Benjamin Button, traveling back in time from the future, Voyager encounters the Krenim and their temporal weaponry, directly discussing the Year of Hell, but a few episodes later, Kes ends up throwing Voyager several thousand lightyears through the Delta quadrant, so the Krenim and the Year of Hell are somehow in a totally different region of space, and none of the crew remember the name Krenim or anything about them when Year of Hell actually happens, even though Janeway specifically requests that Kes file a report about the possible timelines she lived through. Kes gave them a push towards home, so have to assume it was a place that they would have reached eventually anyway.
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Apr 29, 2021 09:15
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Did the Jem'Hadar have their Ketracel addiction right from the start or was that a retcon? I'm too tired to fire up their intro in DS9 but I seem to recall that they didn't have the neck tubes from the onset but they were added sometime in season 3.
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Apr 29, 2021 09:49
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Timby posted:Did the Jem'Hadar have their Ketracel addiction right from the start or was that a retcon? I'm too tired to fire up their intro in DS9 but I seem to recall that they didn't have the neck tubes from the onset but they were added sometime in season 3. Iirc the tubes were originally black so they’re a lot less prominent than the later versions which were clear plastic with the white liquid.
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Apr 29, 2021 10:00
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Hubbardologist posted:It's just such a weird thing for them to have done, I wonder if it was some weird side effect of the plot development of the actual Year of Hell episodes and the writers not anticipating Kes getting written off the show. I recall reading somewhere that they wanted to make the Year of Hell the whole season but it got kiboshed and they only got 2 episodes to do it in. Fake edit, here: https://trekmovie.com/2020/05/29/bryan-fuller-describes-star-trek-voyager-serialized-year-of-hell-season-rejected-by-rick-berman/
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Apr 29, 2021 18:29
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Nullsmack posted:I recall reading somewhere that they wanted to make the Year of Hell the whole season but it got kiboshed and they only got 2 episodes to do it in. I would have been majorly pissed if they had a full season of progression being reset by what amounts to "it was just a dream". Even in an episodic show, that would have sucked. Good call mr sex pest man.
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Apr 29, 2021 18:33
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BonHair posted:I would have been majorly pissed if they had a full season of progression being reset by what amounts to "it was just a dream". Even in an episodic show, that would have sucked. Good call mr sex pest man. I would hope that the ending wouldn't be the same if they had a whole 22 episode season to flesh it out.
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Apr 29, 2021 18:36
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Nullsmack posted:I recall reading somewhere that they wanted to make the Year of Hell the whole season but it got kiboshed and they only got 2 episodes to do it in. I have to take this with a grain of salt. I really think Fuller's overstating his level of involvement here. Fuller was only a contributing writer at that time--he wasn't even on staff, he was a freelancer--and as a result he would not have been in the writers' room full-time, nor is there any reason for him to be particularly privy to the behind-the-scenes politics at that point, considering he only became a co-producer with the seventh season. Fuller is an unreliable narrator at the best of times, so I guess I'm just saying that I wouldn't put too much stock into what he says here.
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Apr 29, 2021 20:47
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BonHair posted:I would have been majorly pissed if they had a full season of progression being reset by what amounts to "it was just a dream". Even in an episodic show, that would have sucked. Good call mr sex pest man. Nah, if I recall if they'd done a season arc then it wouldn't have been a time reset, there would've been something like allies at the end that help them repair. The time reset was part of being able to wrap it up in a two-parter.
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Apr 29, 2021 20:58
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MikeJF posted:Nah, if I recall if they'd done a season arc then it wouldn't have been a time reset, there would've been something like allies at the end that help them repair. The time reset was part of being able to wrap it up in a two-parter. Basically Season 3 of Enterprise. God, if Season 4 would have been the Year of Hell, then it would have been interesting to see how it would have shaken up all the big poo poo that went down in that year alone, like The Raven, Message in a Bottle and the entire Hirogen arc, Living Witness, and Hope and Fear. Fuuuck, that would have been a much stronger finale to the season and Year of Hell if Voyager just gets the poo poo kicked out of it and they manage to beat Annorax and the Krenim just barely, and the ship is just limping along like Galactica at the end of BSG, and then at the end of the episode as the season ending cliffhanger... they find the Dauntless.
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Apr 29, 2021 21:21
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nine-gear crow posted:Basically Season 3 of Enterprise. God, if Season 4 would have been the Year of Hell, then it would have been interesting to see how it would have shaken up all the big poo poo that went down in that year alone, like The Raven, Message in a Bottle and the entire Hirogen arc, Living Witness, and Hope and Fear. Fuuuck, that would have been a much stronger finale to the season and Year of Hell if Voyager just gets the poo poo kicked out of it and they manage to beat Annorax and the Krenim just barely, and the ship is just limping along like Galactica at the end of BSG, and then at the end of the episode as the season ending cliffhanger... they find the Dauntless. I want a world where Kes had stayed around and had to deal with the fallout of knowing what was coming and her developing powers. I bet she would have been an interesting foil to Seven, especially since they both had unique relationships with the Doctor.
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Apr 30, 2021 00:02
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Nullsmack posted:I would hope that the ending wouldn't be the same if they had a whole 22 episode season to flesh it out. This is the same creative core that not only very deliberately ended a serialized Enterprise season based around a 9/11 revenge quest with a descent into farce, it was one of the first things they decided about the season. They absolutely would have ended a season long Year of Hell with a reset.
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Apr 30, 2021 04:10
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nine-gear crow posted:Basically Season 3 of Enterprise. God, if Season 4 would have been the Year of Hell, then it would have been interesting to see how it would have shaken up all the big poo poo that went down in that year alone, like The Raven, Message in a Bottle and the entire Hirogen arc, Living Witness, and Hope and Fear. Fuuuck, that would have been a much stronger finale to the season and Year of Hell if Voyager just gets the poo poo kicked out of it and they manage to beat Annorax and the Krenim just barely, and the ship is just limping along like Galactica at the end of BSG, and then at the end of the episode as the season ending cliffhanger... they find the Dauntless. Even after they were told the Krenim and time stuff had to only be a two parter, Brannon Braga really wanted to keep the ship wrecked for the rest of the season, the ending would have had them defeating the time ships but Voyager not being reset due to their temporal shields, and then the rest of the year's stories would have been limping along and getting clowned on at every encounter. He lost that fight, though: quote:Brannon wanted to keep the ship wrecked for the entire season, and he didn't want to end with a reset. The studio [namely, Paramount Pictures] didn't want to do that. [Executive producer] Rick Berman didn't want to do that. So we didn't do that. ... Rick said, 'Just plow Voyager into the weapon ship, and reset the timeline, and nobody remembers.' MikeJF fucked around with this message at 06:18 on Apr 30, 2021 |
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Apr 30, 2021 06:15
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MikeJF posted:Even after they were told the Krenim and time stuff had to only be a two parter, Brannon Braga really wanted to keep the ship wrecked for the rest of the season, the ending would have had them defeating the time ships but Voyager not being reset due to their temporal shields, and then the rest of the year's stories would have been limping along and getting clowned on at every encounter. He lost that fight, though: God, it makes me with there was a third Trek show on that Berman could have micromanaged to be his vaunted TNG 2.0 and leave Voyager the hell alone like he did DS9. Voyager probably could have been DS9 calibre easily without Berman constantly trying to plough it into the ground from on high.
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Apr 30, 2021 08:22
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Nah the writers were lazy hacks too for the most part, Ron Moore left in disgust after a couple of episodes because they sucked so much poo poo
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Apr 30, 2021 08:28
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