|
Sagebrush posted:I was there in person and I figured it was obvious this is what I wanted by asking the guy if there were any springs sitting in back. The fact that the guy up front either was so disconnected from the back that he didn't know they would have random leftover parts sitting around, or that he didn't care enough to find out, is why dealers suck. The mechanic around the corner, who just works on bikes, fixed me up. Fuuuck parts departments. I went through this exact thing but for muffler gaskets for my XJ. "Yes, I know you don't have the exact ones, but do you have anything close to this length and diameter?" "Uhh, for what bike?" "I don't know, maybe an FZR?" "What year?" "Look, can I just poke through your stock with my caliper?" "I need a make, model, and year to find them."
|
#
?
Apr 29, 2021 05:16
|
|
|
|
| # ? May 21, 2024 16:11 |
|
|
RightClickSaveAs posted:Sounds like a good deal, maybe they rolled it all into the MSRP or something? Looking at an old bill of sale for a bike I bought once, they had this itemized list of bullshit, I've only bought from a couple dealers so not sure how common this is or if this one was more garbage than usual: It really depends on the dealer. Most dealers will add all those bogus fees and make it sound like they're required in some way. I bought a CRF450RL last week, and the dealer I bought it from charged MSRP ($9999) plus destination ($380), so it was $10379 out the door. Sales tax was paid at the DMV. A different dealer had this breakdown: MSRP: $9999 Destination: $380 Setup: $172.50 Documentation Fee: $82 Other Fees: $14 Neither dealer was willing to negotiate on price, which isn't surprising with how big demand is right now. The fees really rub me the wrong way, since all those things are just the cost of doing business or just made up. The sales guy couldn't explain what the "Other Fees" actually are...
|
|
#
?
Apr 29, 2021 05:32
|
|
|
syzygy86 posted:It really depends on the dealer. Most dealers will add all those bogus fees and make it sound like they're required in some way. I bought a CRF450RL last week, and the dealer I bought it from charged MSRP ($9999) plus destination ($380), so it was $10379 out the door. Sales tax was paid at the DMV. A different dealer had this breakdown: That isn't even close to how bad it can get, consider yourself lucky. I just saw a $1,200 setup/destination fee on a Honda Trail 125.
|
|
#
?
Apr 29, 2021 05:33
|
|
|
stellers bae posted:That isn't even close to how bad it can get, consider yourself lucky. I just saw a $1,200 setup/destination fee on a Honda Trail 125. Oh definitely. $270 in fees is mild compared to some of the stupid poo poo dealers pull.
|
|
#
?
Apr 29, 2021 05:49
|
|
|
syzygy86 posted:Oh definitely. $270 in fees is mild compared to some of the stupid poo poo dealers pull. For sure, but that whole deal you got is not bad. I called around to multiple dealerships and I had freight/assembly/prep fees up to $900 on top of MSRP, not including doc and DMV. The best I could find on the Rebel 1100 I put a deposit on was $288 asembly and $450 destination, and I have to go down to fuckin' Portland for that (from the OlyPen).
|
|
#
?
Apr 29, 2021 05:55
|
|
|
I was curious because I don't remember dealer fees being particularly outrageous when I bought, but this was also pre catastrophe.  So maybe around $450 in dealer BS ($398 handling and the $45.5 "dealer defined" -- that $85 "doc fee" was to pay them to do the DMV paper work I think). I didn't negotiate anything at all because I cared more about buying a bike than saving money. Next bike I will take my time~
|
|
#
?
Apr 29, 2021 06:08
|
|
|
these fees should be called the "lol good luck finding another one" fee
|
|
#
?
Apr 29, 2021 14:03
|
|
|
Greg12 posted:these fees should be called the "lol good luck finding another one" fee I'm pretty sure most dealers around here (Northern Colorado) are adding 1k plus on top of msrp and destination. It used to be you could go down to NM and get a pretty big discount on a bike, but that doesn't seem to be true anymore. If you were hellbent on paying MSRP and not a penny more, you are probably looking at going out to the Oklahoma panhandle.
|
|
#
?
Apr 29, 2021 14:25
|
|
|
I wish they would just bundle those fees into the sticker price the way airlines now do.
|
|
#
?
Apr 29, 2021 14:42
|
|
|
Freight, handling, and doc fees are what the sales guys around here call "the fluff". The $160 license fee is probably registration through DMV, not sure about VLF fee or DMV electronic fee. Those might be legit in CA.
|
|
#
?
Apr 29, 2021 15:34
|
|
|
I've never bought a bike at a dealership, but I gather there's some amount of haggling over price just like with cars. I guess all that fluff is just there to claw some of the margin back, or pad the profit if they've got a live one. On something as low margin as a bike, personally I think paying MSRP out the door (plus whatever plating and licence fees which you'd have to pay anyway) is pretty fair. I sure as hell would pay all that on top of MSRP. Then again, like I said, I've never bought from a dealer. Maybe one day I can afford it.
|
|
#
?
Apr 29, 2021 16:03
|
|
|
SUPPOSEDLY dealers have a pretty low margin on actual bike prices, especially normal bikes in the $5k-$15k USD range, and make their money off of service contracts, financing, and other bullshit they can sell to you. So I'd be very happy to get one for an MSRP out the door price, which due to taxes and being bad at negotiating and all the itemized fees I've never had happen personally.Finger Prince posted:Then again, like I said, I've never bought from a dealer. Maybe one day I can afford it.  Only halfway serious, and I wouldn't recommend anyone financing a new bike now with the upcoming economic collapse that keeps getting kicked down the road, but interest rates being what they are now it might not be the worst time to do that. I'm pretty sure I could get around 2-3% from my bank on a loan. Not going to buy anything new for a long while myself though.
|
|
#
?
Apr 29, 2021 16:31
|
|
|
Motorcycle dealers negotiate just like car dealers. I had success pre-pandemic, negotiating OTD price only, and I got a pretty decent discount, but I contacted like 10 dealers around the metroplex to find the one place that was willing to make a deal. Now post-covid and especially if you're in a location with only a few dealerships I'm sure all bets are off.
|
|
#
?
Apr 29, 2021 16:42
|
|
|
RightClickSaveAs posted:SUPPOSEDLY dealers have a pretty low margin on actual bike prices, especially normal bikes in the $5k-$15k USD range, and make their money off of service contracts, financing, and other bullshit they can sell to you. So I'd be very happy to get one for an MSRP out the door price, which due to taxes and being bad at negotiating and all the itemized fees I've never had happen personally. When I say MSRP out the door, I mean like plus whatever taxes and fees go to the government, because you can't get away from those things. So if something has an MSRP of $10k and you've got to pay 13% sales tax and a hundred for plates, handing the dealer $11300 isn't bad, but I'd walk away from anything more than that, and I'd be happy if it came out less.
|
|
#
?
Apr 29, 2021 16:56
|
|
|
It's so frustrating that I can't just buy a vehicle at MSRP and instead have to go through some shady dealer middleman who reaches in my pocket for all manner of things. There are bikes that get listed for an MSRP that I'm ok with, and I want to be able to go buy that for that price. If the dealer wants a cut, that is between them and the manufacturer in negotiating margins. Plus, wish I could have the crate dropped off and be responsible for the final assembly and fluids, if I choose. I get the liability/law reasons why, but that goes out the window when the new bike you pick up is poorly assembled and stuff.
|
|
#
?
Apr 29, 2021 17:14
|
|
|
Coydog posted:It's so frustrating that I can't just buy a vehicle at MSRP and instead have to go through some shady dealer middleman who reaches in my pocket for all manner of things. There are bikes that get listed for an MSRP that I'm ok with, and I want to be able to go buy that for that price. If the dealer wants a cut, that is between them and the manufacturer in negotiating margins. Plus, wish I could have the crate dropped off and be responsible for the final assembly and fluids, if I choose. I get the liability/law reasons why, but that goes out the window when the new bike you pick up is poorly assembled and stuff. You can go on Amazon and order a Chinese dual sport and do exactly that. You can also go to https://cscmotorcycles.com/ and get something that shows up ready to go with a gallon of gas already in the tank
|
|
#
?
Apr 29, 2021 17:31
|
|
|
Coydog posted:It's so frustrating that I can't just buy a vehicle at MSRP and instead have to go through some shady dealer middleman who reaches in my pocket for all manner of things. There are bikes that get listed for an MSRP that I'm ok with, and I want to be able to go buy that for that price. If the dealer wants a cut, that is between them and the manufacturer in negotiating margins. Plus, wish I could have the crate dropped off and be responsible for the final assembly and fluids, if I choose. I get the liability/law reasons why, but that goes out the window when the new bike you pick up is poorly assembled and stuff. Yeah I actually found my front axle nut free spinning after only a couple hundred miles. It may have always been like that and I just didn't think to check.
|
|
#
?
Apr 29, 2021 17:34
|
|
|
I know I can order anything from china, but I'd be much more inclined to impulse buy a KLX or something from the big manufacturers if they provided the same.
|
|
#
?
Apr 29, 2021 17:45
|
|
|
Dog Case posted:You can go on Amazon and order a Chinese dual sport and do exactly that. I know a guy who did that! It was... um, ok? Kind of? Basically everything you'd expect. Build quality was not ideal. Shock blew, wiring had real issues. But the motor kind of chugged along pretty well even if the fueling wasn't great either. You definitely want a used japanese bike instead.
|
|
#
?
Apr 29, 2021 18:21
|
|
|
There's a YouTube channel called Bikes&Beards / SRK Cycles where the owner keeps buying Chinese bikes on Amazon and every single one of them is a giant piece of poo poo.
|
|
#
?
Apr 29, 2021 18:50
|
|
|
Strife posted:There's a YouTube channel called Bikes&Beards / SRK Cycles where the owner keeps buying Chinese bikes on Amazon and every single one of them is a giant piece of poo poo. But I bet they're cheap!
|
|
#
?
Apr 29, 2021 19:21
|
|
|
It's still mind boggling to me how sales tax is not included in the sticker price for things in the US.
|
|
#
?
Apr 29, 2021 19:21
|
|
|
it's a deliberate move by republicans to turn people against sales taxes. the person making the money is the seller, so that's who is getting taxed, so there's no reason for the buyer to even be aware of it. however, separating them out as a line item makes it feel like you're getting ripped off by the government and the poor seller would charge you less if they could but the mean old state wants you to pay more!! this is why any attempts to mandate labels that include the taxes always fail.
|
|
#
?
Apr 29, 2021 20:28
|
|
|
What a country! The only place I ever worked that just rolled sales tax into price and advertised that price was a high school job at a movie theater, of all places. Tickets were straight up $5 (4.xx plus the sales tax, which you only saw I believe if you looked at it on the register). Popcorn was like $4.50 or something ($4.xx plus sales tax). It made so much sense of course no one else does it!
|
|
#
?
Apr 29, 2021 21:03
|
|
|
Sagebrush posted:it's a deliberate move by republicans to turn people against sales taxes. it *is* the gubmint ripping you off
|
|
#
?
Apr 29, 2021 21:08
|
|
|
If the used market continues to be poo poo around here I might have to resort to buying something new, in which case is there any reason not to get a 2021 MT-03?
|
|
#
?
Apr 29, 2021 21:09
|
|
|
Sagebrush posted:it's a deliberate move by republicans to turn people against sales taxes. There's absolutely a reason for the buyer to be aware of it - if Seller A does business in a locale with a higher sales tax, her all-in price would like higher than Seller B in an area with lower (or no) sales taxes. If it's convenient enough or saves enough money, folks will go buy from seller B - example, people driving over the border from Washington to Oregon to buy big ticket items or do their Costco shopping, because Oregon has no sales tax. Grover Norquist and the TAXATION IS THEFT squad aren't real bright, but there are other reasons to dislike sales taxes that don't involve Republican pricing conspiracies, such as... Razzled posted:it *is* the gubmint ripping you off Sales tax is the most regressive kind of tax since EVERYONE has to buy poo poo, and it doesn't factor in income, etc.
|
|
#
?
Apr 29, 2021 21:50
|
|
|
Yeah we have GST here, if you buy things at a shop you just pay the sticker price which includes gst as a line on the receipt. If you're in a trade or doing anything like that you learn to quote everything as being x amount plus GST, there are accounting reasons for doing this that are well over my head. It is super regressive and the idea of going gst-free on things like fresh fruit, sanitary products etc have been floated a few times, but that would involve stamping on poor people marginally less so it's always just talked about.
|
|
#
?
Apr 29, 2021 22:26
|
|
|
Part of the problem in the US is the huge number of tax jurisdictions, since each state, county, and city/town can add a sales tax. Also, where the buyer lives, rather than where the vendor is located, can determine the tax rate that is paid. For example, I live in Idaho, but I bought my CRF450RL in Washington. The dealer in Washington doesn't collect Idaho sales tax, so I wasn't charged any tax at time of purchase. When I registered the bike in Idaho, I paid the Idaho state sales tax of 6%. So that Washington dealer could advertise the bike at MSRP plus the local sales tax where that dealer is located (7%), but that advertised price will not apply to everyone. I'm not sure if other states do this, but if I had paid sales tax in Washington, Idaho would not have charged me sales tax. In my case it was obviously cheaper to pay the Idaho sales tax. It's the same problem with purchases on the Internet. If I buy something from a smaller vendor, they're not going to charge me the Idaho, county, or city sales tax rates from where I live (unless that vendor is also in Idaho). But come tax time, you're supposed to declare those purchases to the state and pay the sales tax (which I doubt most people actually do). Larger vendors like Amazon do collect the sales tax since they're easier targets for the states and have enough resources to be able to calculate the right tax to collect for the thousands of different tax jurisdictions here. The only real solution I see, assuming you want to keep a sales tax for whatever reason, is to create a federal sales tax to unify everything and prevent local governments from adding an additional sales tax. But I doubt anything like that will happen any time soon.
|
|
#
?
Apr 30, 2021 04:52
|
|
|
syzygy86 posted:Part of the problem in the US is the huge number of tax jurisdictions, since each state, county, and city/town can add a sales tax. Also, where the buyer lives, rather than where the vendor is located, can determine the tax rate that is paid. For example, I live in Idaho, but I bought my CRF450RL in Washington. The dealer in Washington doesn't collect Idaho sales tax, so I wasn't charged any tax at time of purchase. When I registered the bike in Idaho, I paid the Idaho state sales tax of 6%. So that Washington dealer could advertise the bike at MSRP plus the local sales tax where that dealer is located (7%), but that advertised price will not apply to everyone. I'm not sure if other states do this, but if I had paid sales tax in Washington, Idaho would not have charged me sales tax. In my case it was obviously cheaper to pay the Idaho sales tax. Yeah, that's why it works in places like Europe. 20% VAT on everything, everywhere. Parts of Canada are still kind of messy, but most provinces have harmonized the provincial sales tax and federal sales tax into HST, but that total rate does vary province to province depending on the provincial rate. The hosed up thing is how these things only apply to used vehicles. And sort of arbitrarily too. Every time a vehicle changes hands, the province collects sales tax on it, based either on bill of sale price (motorbikes) or the greater value of bill of sale or wholesale book value (cars). It's the only category of used goods I can think of that incurs sales tax on private sale. I'm sure technically you're supposed to collect tax from a buyer when you sell an old lawn mower too, but there's no legal mechanism enforce it.
|
|
#
?
Apr 30, 2021 05:04
|
|
|
 Most states have an "occasional sale" exemption from sales tax, where a normal person (i.e. not a business) can make a certain number of sales each year without being required to collect and remit sales tax for regular tangible personal property. Otherwise, yeah, every single sale of a taxable item is subject to tax, no matter how many times it gets sold.However, since motor vehicles are often taxed differently than regular merchandise, and states already have the registration and titling process set up, AND the typically high dollar values of motor vehicle transactions, it makes sense for states to enforce MV sales tax on every MV transaction. Sales tax in the US is obnoxiously complicated but there's no way in hell that it's ever getting federalized. FBS fucked around with this message at 05:20 on Apr 30, 2021 |
|
#
?
Apr 30, 2021 05:18
|
|
|
Finger Prince posted:I've never bought a bike at a dealership, but I gather there's some amount of haggling over price just like with cars. I guess all that fluff is just there to claw some of the margin back, or pad the profit if they've got a live one. On something as low margin as a bike, personally I think paying MSRP out the door (plus whatever plating and licence fees which you'd have to pay anyway) is pretty fair. I sure as hell would pay all that on top of MSRP. Then again, like I said, I've never bought from a dealer. Maybe one day I can afford it. The fluff is just whatever they can get you for, it keeps the donuts stocked and pays for a few rounds of golf itsfreemoney.gif. The dealership's bread and butter is financing. RightClickSaveAs posted:SUPPOSEDLY dealers have a pretty low margin on actual bike prices Powersports dealerships have a low margin on prices, grocery stores have a low margin on prices, etc etc but I don't see the owners of these establishments slumming it in middle class homes. Griping about margins just means they don't want to pay all their employees a living wage.
|
|
#
?
Apr 30, 2021 06:08
|
|
|
Finger Prince posted:Yeah, that's why it works in places like Europe. 20% VAT on everything, everywhere. I’m not sure about mainland Europe, but in the UK you have different VAT rates for different things. Bank fees, insurance, sanitary products, are all 0-rated. Some services are 15%, and some individual things are weird rates like 7.5%. Additionally, you can be a “flat rate VAT” company, where you collect your 20%, but pay the govt less (but you can’t claim the VAT back on your purchases). And used bike/car dealers have a special deal with the government where if they buy a vehicle from a private seller, they only pay VAT on the profit when you sell it.
|
|
#
?
Apr 30, 2021 08:51
|
|
|
Strife posted:There's a YouTube channel called Bikes&Beards / SRK Cycles where the owner keeps buying Chinese bikes on Amazon and every single one of them is a giant piece of poo poo. Is that the guy who has random Bible verses of the day in his videos? That caught me off guard.
|
|
#
?
Apr 30, 2021 11:09
|
|
|
Steakandchips posted:Went and took a look at it today. Guy who has it has a massive double garage, where he and his son likes to work on bikes and cars. His son was actually wrenching on his car as we looked at bikes. He's currently taking up electric mountain biking, and he's 50+! You can see the mountain bike has had good use too. He was also wiring up an electric rack for his SUV to hold the mountain bikes. Knows his stuff clearly. The Honda CBF 125 just sold. Guy came to look at it (no bullshit messing around via text, no bargaining before looking at it etc etc, just asked for a time and showed up on time to take a gander) His mate, a motorcycle instructor, who had come with, inspected it, took it for a short test ride. Said it was absolutely fine. I had it listed at £1995. Guy offered me £1700. I said lets split the difference, £1850. He said £1800. Sold. Immediate bank transfer, I can see the money in my account, V5 slip signed, he's coming to collect it tomorrow. Ideal transaction, which started on fb marketplace of all places. I also made a small £100 profit on what I bought the bike at in 2019! I am hopefully going to go test ride the FJR on Sunday!
|
|
#
?
Apr 30, 2021 12:09
|
|
|
It never fails that the person that actually buys the bike shows up on time and is easy to deal with. All the "is this available" "how fast is it" "what's your bottom dollar" inquires can just be ignored.
|
|
#
?
Apr 30, 2021 14:18
|
|
|
100% agreed, the absence of twatting about made giving him a £195 discount worth every penny. --- Separately, just phoned up the insurer... It had cost me £152.47 to insure in November, Third Party, Fire and Theft with Carole Nash insurers, for a year, paid upfront. It had been £75.56 with a 1 year No Claims Bonus, but I had to transfer the NCB to the Fat Bob, so when they adjusted it, they tacked on £76.91, i.e. £152.47 in total. Since I've only "used" about 5 months and some days of the policy, I cancel it I should get a refund right? I ask Carole Nash for a refund for roughly half, i.e. £76 or so. "There is a £40 cancellation charge, so we will refund you £37.79 in total to the same credit card you used to purchase the policy." Insurers. Sigh. £40 to click a button.
|
|
#
?
Apr 30, 2021 14:42
|
|
|
I had a weird experience when buying my first bike. Since I live in Eastern Mass, a BUNCH of dealers are owned by the same company. I went to them first, since, well, they own everything and had a decent selection. I go in to look at 300cc or so bikes. They stack fees like crazy, but I just figured everywhere was like that. The sales lady was pressing me for a deposit on ANYTHING I looked at. I get some info on OTD pricing and fees and what not and look at a few bikes. I got home and did a cursory google of her, since I got some red flags, and found that she's...not a good person. She's been arrested for stealing money when she worked as a home health aid, among other unsavory things (that mostly involve stealing!) so I didn't really feel all that comfortable leaving a 500 dollar deposit AND my SSN with her...for obvious reason. (Not to mention I found out the shop also had a Level 3 Sex offender working for them as well.) (Unrealted, but, I also found out they are one of the only MV Agusta dealers locally, and more than one person has blasted them on Facebook for techs caught getting drunk and taking customer MV bikes out to flex and joyride them!) I noped hard and then worried I wouldn't be able to find a reasonably price good place since they own everything. On a whim I stopped at another place (North Reading Powersports, for the people in Mass!) Holy poo poo what a difference. An hour later I had signed on the line for a 2019 cb300r. To compare - (This was in February of 2020) MSRP of a CB300r (NON ABS) is $4649. -- At the first place, the price broke down this way: 4649 MSRP + 380 + 149 + 179 + sales tax = 5691 OTD ---- At North Reading Powersports - Bike was discounted to 4299 since it was the prior year model, even though it was new. 4299 + 140 doc fee + sales tax = 4716 OTD -- Also, the first place wanted 100 to deliver the bike.... North Reading threw it in for free when I told them it was my first bike and I was a little nervous pulling out onto a main road. The guy came on a Saturday morning, took the bike off the truck, and then spent half hour explaining some of the maintenance stuff about my bike with me, in my driveway. For FREE. I will absolutely be buying my next bike from them.
|
|
#
?
Apr 30, 2021 14:54
|
|
|
metavisual posted:To compare - I wonder if early 2020 was just a good time to get a bike. Right before the pandemic shutdowns started making everything go crazy. That's when I got my 2019 ZX-10, and due to it being previous year's model, it was discounted to $12,999. Kind of a wash after all the fees, but still a really solid list price. Delivery should be standard for those buying bikes for the first time, it's borderline criminally irresponsible to sell a bike to a brand new rider and just go "bon voyage!" That's one thing I did right on my first bike purchase, made them do the delivery, and they didn't charge me for it either.
|
|
#
?
Apr 30, 2021 15:55
|
|
|
|
| # ? May 21, 2024 16:11 |
|
|
What a great writeup! Congrats on the new bike. Keep the rubber side down. Please do reward people for excellent service. And spread that information by writing reviews and letting people know about your positive experience in general. Unfortunately, people are 10 times more likely to write a negative review and just move on and accept good service as given. Makes later research a bit harder for everyone else.
|
|
#
?
Apr 30, 2021 16:12
|
|
