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GodFish posted:I'm here mourning the loss of my precious battlestar as much (or more) than the next person but he was killed in self defense while performing a military operation and the deadly blow was obviously accidental at that. Hardly a casus belli. Battlestar wasn't killed in self defense. Karli explicitly lured Walker in to execute him for ideological reasons. Lamar was just defending himself and his partner. You can argue who is right in the grand scheme of things but in a bubble the flag smashers were absolutely the aggressors in that scene. Also, the guy who Walker (unjustly) executed was trying to hold Walker to stab him to death, he wasn't a passive actor. If Walker punched him into a wall immediately after he tried to stab him none of us would be debating his death. I'm not a fash Walker Stan but that fight scene was cut and dry before the execution.
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May 1, 2021 05:58
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The worst undertone of the entire series was "Avengers fight aliens around the world twice and defeat Ultron - not sanctioned by world governments, not cool" "Captain America and his sidekick deployed to Europe with the intent of killing terrorists - sanctioned with the GRC, totally cool"
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May 1, 2021 06:05
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BurritoJustice posted:Battlestar wasn't killed in self defense. Karli explicitly lured Walker in to execute him for ideological reasons. Lamar was just defending himself and his partner. You can argue who is right in the grand scheme of things but in a bubble the flag smashers were absolutely the aggressors in that scene. Also, the guy who Walker (unjustly) executed was trying to hold Walker to stab him to death, he wasn't a passive actor. If Walker punched him into a wall immediately after he tried to stab him none of us would be debating his death. Isn't there the argument to be made that the Flagsmashers were attacked in their own home by several rogue political agents? I might be misremembering, but I feel like the legal situation involved was incredibly murky. This said, I don't think this situation can support this level of scrutiny. The legal status of the refugee camps, for one, is impossible to deduce from the show. I think this is a fools errand.
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May 1, 2021 06:05
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BurritoJustice posted:Battlestar wasn't killed in self defense. Karli explicitly lured Walker in to execute him for ideological reasons. Lamar was just defending himself and his partner. You can argue who is right in the grand scheme of things but in a bubble the flag smashers were absolutely the aggressors in that scene. Also, the guy who Walker (unjustly) executed was trying to hold Walker to stab him to death, he wasn't a passive actor. If Walker punched him into a wall immediately after he tried to stab him none of us would be debating his death. Trying to recreate that sequence of events in my head I was thinking of that fight as taking place after Walker trailed Sam to the Karli/Sam meeting again but that was when Walker got the serum, not after he used it. I don't actually remember the leadup to this fight at all, so I'll take your word for it. I do think the way all the Flag-smashers reacted to Lamar getting killed makes it seem pretty clear they were pretty shocked at him dying but that doesn't really line up with them trying to stab Walker, so I dunno 
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May 1, 2021 06:08
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Cage Kicker posted:The worst undertone of the entire series was "Avengers fight aliens around the world twice and defeat Ultron - not sanctioned by world governments, not cool" "Captain America and his sidekick deployed to Europe with the intent of killing terrorists - sanctioned with the GRC, totally cool" Well the Avengers didn't have oversight so nobody could do anything when they blow up a hospital but when Walker killed a guy in front of a bunch of people that got broadcasted to the world and he got kicked out of his job. So according to treaties yeah working as intended. That was part of why the King of Wakanda was so mad, a bunch of Wakandans got killed and jack all was gonna be done about it because the Avengers answered to themselves.
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May 1, 2021 06:14
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GodFish posted:Trying to recreate that sequence of events in my head I was thinking of that fight as taking place after Walker trailed Sam to the Karli/Sam meeting again but that was when Walker got the serum, not after he used it. I don't actually remember the leadup to this fight at all, so I'll take your word for it. I do think the way all the Flag-smashers reacted to Lamar getting killed makes it seem pretty clear they were pretty shocked at him dying but that doesn't really line up with them trying to stab Walker, so I dunno They intentionally tried to keep Lamar separate from the fight, their goal was to kill a symbol (Captain America) and they could plan it because they were using the symbol as a way to dehumanise Walker. Lamar was still a person, and when they kill him by accident, instead of their target, who is clearly a super soldier at this point, they freak out.
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May 1, 2021 07:34
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I think my biggest problem with the flag smashers is that they don't seem to grasp the magnitude of what happened in the world. Imagine coming back to life after five years discovering you have no job, no home and your husband/wife has found someone else, are you less deserving of help just because you were gone? Is your life worth less? It's a lovely situation for any government to be in, and it's simply impossible to be fair to everyone, I mean who deserves to live in a home, the ones who own it and who had no say in disappearing, or the person who moved in during those five years? Murdering innocent people because you lost your job in a major global upheaval, is more evil than any government official who is trying to deal with an impossible situation.
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May 1, 2021 07:52
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gyrobot posted:Enlighten me please, I mean I know about Baader Meinhof complex but a more indepth explaination would be great since I loved how political the show was. I'm not trying to draw too deep a parallel, but the Red Army Faction was founded as a direct response to what they perceived as a failure of the de-Nazification process in post-war Germany. The GRC aren't Nazis, but it's the same rough situation and the Flag Smashers follow the same rough trajectory. They see the leaders as the same imperialists who were in charge before the crisis event that divided the world and continuing their work, so they go outside their country to train (or in this case, get the Serum) and form a guerilla group. The results are also about the same, although the Flag Smashers speedrun it - attacks on installations resulting in civilian casualties, escalating to direct attempts to kidnap and murder senior figures in the "regime", and finally almost the entire leadership dying in custody under suspicious circumstances.
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May 1, 2021 08:55
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People keep saying Karli is a sympathetic character but the show also makes clear that everyone, including her own acolytes are absolutely horrified by her plans, and then they go along with them for reasons because the show is a mess e: the show spends an awful lot of time trying to tell you to feel sympathetic to Karli but basically no time at all on the GRC beyond letting the Senator say right at the end 'uh, this is a bit of an either-or problem and we kinda need to move people on out of the camps where they are dying constantly, by force if necessary'. Alchenar fucked around with this message at 09:27 on May 1, 2021 |
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May 1, 2021 09:25
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I don't think bombing the powers that be is a good thing, but I'm really disappointed that the writers took Karli in that direction. She didn't have to kill people or escalate the conflict. It wasn't even in her character to do so (and yeah you can explain it away by saying the serum made her all fucky). It was purely to give the viewers a reason to root for Sam, Bucky and their scumbag friend when they took them down and saved the gang of genocidal megalomaniacs at the end. How much more compelling would the ending have been if the GRC told Sam to take out the 'terrorist cell' who'd done nothing worse than redistribute supplies and help people (with some destruction of property thrown in for good measure)? Then you'd have some actual conflict about his choice to take on the role of government weapon/mouthpiece, and it'd be all the more satisfying when he told them to go gently caress themselves. Instead Sam resolves the problem by publicly scolding the GRC - which the last few decades has shown us literally never works and can never work. stev fucked around with this message at 09:55 on May 1, 2021 |
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May 1, 2021 09:52
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At the end Sam's like "You gotta stop calling them terrorists!" but this is just another instance of this show indulging in Babby's First Discourse since um actually it's completely okay and appropriate to call people terrorists if they're bombing things and taking hostages and stuff. The whole point of the right wing using "terrorists" and "thugs" as scare tactic buzzwords is that they apply it in completely disingenuous ways, towards harmless foreigners or black youths, for the sake of propaganda and fearmongering. But that's not what's happening here when the GRC guy uses this term; Karli is, in fact, a terrorist! She just kidnapped this guy ten minutes ago! Sam sounds like a loving idiot when he tells him not to call her names!
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May 1, 2021 10:15
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stev posted:How much more compelling would the ending have been if the GRC told Sam to take out the 'terrorist cell' who'd done nothing worse than redistribute supplies and help people (with some destruction of property thrown in for good measure)? Then you'd have some actual conflict about his choice to take on the role of government weapon/mouthpiece, and it'd be all the more satisfying when he told them to go gently caress themselves. Instead Sam resolves the problem by publicly scolding the GRC - which the last few decades has shown us literally never works and can never work. Except Sam isn't a government weapon/mouthpiece and the whole point of the show is Sam taking the shield even though the powers that be do not want a black Captain America. Plus, Sam being welcomed in with open arms only to find out that he's being sent out to do shady poo poo is basically a rehash of The Winter Soldier.
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May 1, 2021 10:31
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GodFish posted:I mean I did say it was bad Rockstar Massacre posted:
It's certainly complicated because as ever it's the people at the sharp end who suffer the consequences - aka the people being oppressed and to a far lesser extent the people being sent to do it. With the obvious problem being everyone involved can feel completely loving justified in their actions because they are doing it all for the right and noble reasons so going straight to the part where it's ok to kill everyone hits the bottom frighteningly fast. After all, there are very few organisations whose recruiting strategy is overtly "come kill people you've never met" even whilst the entire structure from a distance leverages themes of exerting power and control (where previously someone may have had none) as an unspoken subtext somehow so clear you can see it from space. Several friends have spoken about why they were attracted to the military and interestingly all found in it something they were lacking. One of them valued genuinely the chance to help and protect (as he saw it) whereas the other thought she was doing the right thing being a torch bearer for a certain viewpoint and yet another was of the opinion it was the only chance at a career they'd ever get. All of them were horribly disabused in different ways by various events and locations. These aren't stupid or naïve humans yet looking back it's hard for them not to feel that way a little. Anyway. Interesting discussions and I appreciate everyones thoughts. I really did not expect a marvel thread to make me walk around mulling on how culpability is apportioned, unfairly reflecting and exacerbating existing imbalances. TLDR: people at the top don't change, just the poor fuckers who get ground up by it.
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May 1, 2021 10:40
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BrianWilly posted:At the end Sam's like "You gotta stop calling them terrorists!" but this is just another instance of this show indulging in Babby's First Discourse since um actually it's completely okay and appropriate to call people terrorists if they're bombing things and taking hostages and stuff. He's telling them not to call her a terrorist because terrorist is a loaded word in the American Zeitgeist used to delegitimize the causes that people are fighting for, and he explicitly did not want them to do that. His speech to them was about laying out a roadmap so that the people with power could avoid a violent revolution and so the people without power like Karli could achieve their goals without needing to martyr themselves or harm innocents. Making sure that nobody tries to undercut the very existence of Karli's grievances by labeling her a terrorist is a good first step on that road.
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May 1, 2021 10:46
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The GRC doesn't undercut the legitimacy of Karli's grievance by labeling her a terrorist because she is a terrorist and they are right to label her as that. The show has Karli undercut her own legitimacy when it made her a terrorist. I said this in the other thread but in the real world, the "people without power" -- the oppressed, the marginalized, the needy -- are not the ones out there harming innocents. Y'know who's actually out there shooting up hair salons and bombing malls and trying to kidnap senators? 'Cuz it's not the Karli Morgenthaus of the world. There is no threat of a BLM protester or a border refugee going out there and doing violent revolutions. The actual disenfranchised of the world aren't the ones building the pipe bombs and planning to kill its leaders, they're just the ones getting hurt and that's it. And our leaders should stop hurting these powerless people because you're a scumbag if you hurt people, not because you're afraid that they might hurt you in return. So the message here of "It's not that The System is inherently wrong, it's that it just need to be nicer! Because otherwise the people that you oppress and disenfranchise will get really angry and try to kill you!" is also real tonedeaf and just another way to demonize the oppressed and the disenfranchised, no matter how well-intentioned you make them, no matter how just their cause. I don't think it's ill-intended, but again: Babby's First Discourse. BrianWilly fucked around with this message at 11:02 on May 1, 2021 |
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May 1, 2021 10:58
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Alchenar posted:People keep saying Karli is a sympathetic character but the show also makes clear that everyone, including her own acolytes are absolutely horrified by her plans, and then they go along with them for reasons because the show is a mess There's a whole scene at the end of episode 5 that's basically the GRC, or at least the senator apparently leading the GRC, saying "gently caress them refugees." If he had a mustache, he would've been twirling it the entire time he was on camera. Plus, Sam, who's the moral arbiter of the show and maybe even the entire MCU now, never gives up on Karli, to the point that he delivers her dead body like an angel and publicly reprimands the GRC for driving her to violence.
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May 1, 2021 11:02
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live with fruit posted:Except Sam isn't a government weapon/mouthpiece and the whole point of the show is Sam taking the shield even though the powers that be do not want a black Captain America. Plus, Sam being welcomed in with open arms only to find out that he's being sent out to do shady poo poo is basically a rehash of The Winter Soldier. The GRC isn't Hydra. They're not concocting a villainous scheme. They're just proceeding with the mundane day to day horrors that our world governments already perpetuate, and creating scapegoats the way they always have.
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May 1, 2021 11:13
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stev posted:The GRC isn't Hydra. They're not concocting a villainous scheme. They're just proceeding with the mundane day to day horrors that our world governments already perpetuate, and creating scapegoats the way they always have. Exactly? One of the criticisms of Winter Soldier is that SHIELD being taken over by Hydra weakened the commentary because all the evilness could be pinned on the uber-Nazis. Now the bad guys are an apparently upstanding organization that guys like Walker and Lemar don't even think to question.
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May 1, 2021 11:22
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BrianWilly posted:The GRC doesn't undercut the legitimacy of Karli's grievance by labeling her a terrorist because she is a terrorist and they are right to label her as that. The show has Karli undercut her own legitimacy when it made her a terrorist. Not according to like half the posters in this thread apparently. No, seriously though, the show goes out of its way to make it very VERY clear that Karli's radicalization did NOT in fact destroy the legitimacy of her point, and you're oversimplifying its overall take on Revolutionary Ideology and the legitimacy of force as a tool of political change, and you're also ignoring that Sam's explicit demand to the oppressors at the top was not "be nicer," but "give people like Karli a place in the halls of power before they take it from you." The show's ultimate thesis statement is not "Antifa need to cool their jets or they'll become like this terrorist, and also our country is perfect the way it is if only we had MORE BLACK COPS," its "Antifa very clearly has a point, and if our country doesn't fix its poo poo you're going to force them to start Revolutionary War II to do it for you, so put more AOC's in Congress and actually listen to what they're telling you about how to fix things once they get there." The show also explicitly condemns supremacism WHILE it defends what Karli is doing and only once touches on the idea that that's the path she's walking, an idea that is presented by the Main Character's foil and which the Main Character clearly disagrees with, so its obviously pretty aware of who the actual dangerous people are.
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May 1, 2021 11:29
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Terror Sweat posted:Who has the biggest body count in this series? Sam, zemo, zemos butler or Karli For kills only in the show it’s gotta be Sharon, direct or indirect. Speaking of which, did Bucky actually kill anyone in the whole show? Besides the flashback kills.
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May 1, 2021 11:37
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live with fruit posted:There's a whole scene at the end of episode 5 that's basically the GRC, or at least the senator apparently leading the GRC, saying "gently caress them refugees." If he had a mustache, he would've been twirling it the entire time he was on camera. Plus, Sam, who's the moral arbiter of the show and maybe even the entire MCU now, never gives up on Karli, to the point that he delivers her dead body like an angel and publicly reprimands the GRC for driving her to violence. Yes but the problem is that scene is equally as contrived as Karli's arson-murder spree. Both sides get out-of-character caricature of evil moments just so that Sam can sit in the middle and not feel bad about having no ideology. If you are giving Karli a pass for murdering her captives why aren't you giving the GRC a pass for not caring that their plan to fix the mess the world is in will cause a bit of suffering?
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May 1, 2021 12:10
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The more I read some of these posts the more I wonder if anyone actually watched the show or just mentally edited in what they needed to happen so they could hate it.
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May 1, 2021 12:22
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Alchenar posted:Yes but the problem is that scene is equally as contrived as Karli's arson-murder spree. Both sides get out-of-character caricature of evil moments just so that Sam can sit in the middle and not feel bad about having no ideology. How is it out of character for the GRC? The only time they're portrayed benevolently is in their own propaganda. Also, how is Sam sitting in the middle? He clearly sides with the Flag Smashers. He has a five minute monologue in their defense that is the ultimate climax of the series.
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May 1, 2021 12:28
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Sanguinia posted:The more I read some of these posts the more I wonder if anyone actually watched the show or just mentally edited in what they needed to happen so they could hate it.
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May 1, 2021 12:51
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live with fruit posted:How is it out of character for the GRC? The only time they're portrayed benevolently is in their own propaganda. I mean this is the mess of the show showing one thing and telling another. Sam's whole mission over the six episodes is to stop the Flag Smashers. Despite anything he says that's what he's doing. He chases down the super-soldier terrorists and foils their terrorist plot. The fact that he then gives a weirdly long speech where he doesn't actually say anything insightful beyond 'be nice to each other' doesn't actually change the fact that all he does is oppose the flag smashers. e: the other issue is that the other character who expresses an opinion on Karli is Zemo, and from what we see from the camera being on her that Sam doesn't he's absolutely right. She has crossed a line, she is intent on arson murder, the only way to stop her is to kill her. Alchenar fucked around with this message at 13:22 on May 1, 2021 |
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May 1, 2021 12:52
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Alchenar posted:I mean this is the mess of the show showing one thing and telling another. Sam's whole mission over the six episodes is to stop the Flag Smashers. Despite anything he says that's what he's doing. He chases down the super-soldier terrorists and foils their terrorist plot. That's not at all an encapsulation of what Sam says but whatever.
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May 1, 2021 13:00
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BrianWilly posted:The GRC doesn't undercut the legitimacy of Karli's grievance by labeling her a terrorist because she is a terrorist and they are right to label her as that. The show has Karli undercut her own legitimacy when it made her a terrorist. The problem is that GRC guy was using the terrorist label to shut down discussion. I don't think it's the label so much as the fact that it's used as a conversation ender, which is absolutely a thing in the real world too. Like, after 9/11, the anti-war movement was the place to find people asking "what happened to make people hate the US this much," and the answer was "because the TERRORISTS hate our FREEDOMS." I'd have to look at the actual scene again, but I think the same thing happened in the show, where GRC guy wanted to plow through the concerns of the refugees by just saying "they're led by a terrorist." Which is true, but shuts down discourse in a way that doesn't actually solve problems. All that said, I'll absolutely concede that the show doesn't get that deep into these issues. It might be babbys first discourse, but for the TV equivalent of a summer blockbuster, I think "don't just dismiss them as terrorists, there are actual human concerns that motivate them" is a decent stance to take.
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May 1, 2021 13:01
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Sanguinia posted:No, seriously though, the show goes out of its way to make it very VERY clear that Karli's radicalization did NOT in fact destroy the legitimacy of her point There are real live people in the real world who try to kidnap senators and force their way into Congress in order to murder politicians. What would Sam say about them? "Don't call them mean names to shut down the conversation, they're just using force as a tool of political power"? TFATWS wants us to sympathize with Karli's plight but confuses her status and methodology with Shirtless Viking Guy at the riots. It wants us to think she's Antifa, but then depicts her actual actions as the Proud Boys. So you understand how iffy it sounds when you say that the show thinks the government needs to give "people like Karli" a place at the table...or else they'll be sorry! ('Cuz then people like Karli will kidnap or kill them) And no, of course the showrunners didn't intend to say that. Of course they only intended to say pleasant progressive things. That's why we keep saying that there are really tone-deaf takeaways here in spite of their good intentions. Good intentions count for jack in the grand scheme if your message falls apart after thinking about it for a minute or two. BrianWilly fucked around with this message at 13:37 on May 1, 2021 |
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May 1, 2021 13:34
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Wandavision did a good scene of people coming back from the Snap, they should of done the same with Karli have her teaching a class then everyone comes back and the old teacher reappears then montage her losing her job/home. At the least they should of spent some more time early on the GRC and what things are like for the refugees.
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May 1, 2021 13:58
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BrianWilly posted:The show can tell us whatever pleasant-sounding fantasy it wants to, but whether these things stand up to any scrutiny is another matter. I think your assertions here are absolute nonsense that are willfully ignoring the history of Revolutionary Ideology and Methodology, especially in a leftist/progressive context. Saying that by resorting to violence in her Revolution that Karli stops being leftist and becomes fascist because violence as a tool of political change is something exclusive to privileged elites playing at populism like the Capitol Insurrectionists or Right Wing Militias is just... beyond wrong. There's a reason the show's message is that the grievances behind that violence were entirely right even if the violence was wrong and so those grievances should be addressed legitimately before violence becomes the only way for the populace to resolve them. I'll give you a hint: the main character in this show is Captain AMERICA. I know those people you THINK they turned Karli into SAY that they believe in the spirit of the American Revolution and that they're fighting against tyranny and oppression, but they actually AREN'T, where as Karli actually WAS. And the show acknowledges this BY HAVING ZEMO BASICALLY SAY SHE'S A PROUD BOY AND SAM REJECT HIS ASSERTION. Sanguinia fucked around with this message at 14:19 on May 1, 2021 |
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May 1, 2021 14:15
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Again, the show can say whatever it wants to say. At the end of the day though, I can't remember the last time that leftists tried to enact change by kidnapping politicians, but I sure can remember the last time that politicians were targeted for kidnapping and it wasn't by leftists.
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May 1, 2021 14:19
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BrianWilly posted:Again, the show can say whatever it wants to say. At the end of the day though, I can't remember the last time that leftists tried to enact change by kidnapping politicians, but I sure can remember the last time that politicians were targeted for kidnapping and it wasn't by leftists. So when Malcolm X said it was either going to be the Ballot or the Bullet, was he being a Shirtless Viking Guy rather than a leftist? You're looking at a TV show that deliberately and repeatedly makes a distinction between violence in support of progressive ideals and regressive ideals and saying that its a meaningless distinction because of recency bias.
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May 1, 2021 14:32
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BrianWilly posted:Again, the show can say whatever it wants to say. At the end of the day though, I can't remember the last time that leftists tried to enact change by kidnapping politicians, but I sure can remember the last time that politicians were targeted for kidnapping and it wasn't by leftists. Given the problem Sam had with Karli was her methodology and not her ideology, maybe that's the point?
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May 1, 2021 14:33
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Bust Rodd posted:Yeah, Super Soldier Serum is like #3 behind Arc Reactor tech and Vibranium in terms of “outrageously valuable MCU macguffins”, so her on-screen explanation of US military secrets and weapons technology somehow being more valuable SSS and therefore worth destroying the only guy on Earth who knows how to make it seems extremely dumb for a master strategist and spy. It all makes sense when you consider that the guy clearly was incapable of producing more.
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May 1, 2021 14:40
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Sanguinia posted:So when Malcolm X said it was either going to be the Ballot or the Bullet, was he being a Shirtless Viking Guy rather than a leftist? You're looking at a TV show that deliberately and repeatedly makes a distinction between violence in support of progressive ideals and regressive ideals and saying that its a meaningless distinction because of recency bias. It's also very US-centric. There's plenty of leftist groups outside of the US that have had no problem assassinating politicians.
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May 1, 2021 14:42
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There was a time in the 50s and 60s that it was very common on the left to consider violent revolution the only way to proceed and many places tried just that. Was Castro just another proud boy? Or is someone about to call me a tankie?
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May 1, 2021 14:45
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live with fruit posted:It's also very US-centric. There's plenty of leftist groups outside of the US that have had no problem assassinating politicians. To be fair, the show is about Captain America and its ideological take on Karli through Sam is absolutely rooted in an American view of Revolution. There's a reason a lot of Americans thought that the French went kind of overboard with THEIR revolution compared to ours, even though ours involved full-scale war.
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May 1, 2021 14:45
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One interesting thing about this show is that, in the end, there is no villain. Karli is the protagonist, in that she's the one driving the action, but she ends up getting murdered by another bad person and Sam honors her after death. Sharon is villainous but she doesn't actually do much and is never directly pitted against the heroes. And Walker ends up redeeming himself (mileage may vary) and ends the show as a pawn of someone who's probably but unconfirmedly bad.
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May 1, 2021 14:51
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live with fruit posted:One interesting thing about this show is that, in the end, there is no villain. Karli is the protagonist, in that she's the one driving the action, but she ends up getting murdered by another bad person and Sam honors her after death. Sharon is villainous but she doesn't actually do much and is never directly pitted against the heroes. And Walker ends up redeeming himself (mileage may vary) and ends the show as a pawn of someone who's probably but unconfirmedly bad. The true friend was the villains we made along the way.
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May 1, 2021 14:52
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Protagonists never drive the action in pop media. It's always the villains.
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