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live with fruit posted:Karli is the protagonist, in that she's the one driving the action So not the protagonist then? Because the definition of protagonist has nothing to do with driving the action, and never has.
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May 1, 2021 15:00
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Sanguinia posted:So when Malcolm X said it was either going to be the Ballot or the Bullet, was he being a Shirtless Viking Guy rather than a leftist? You're looking at a TV show that deliberately and repeatedly makes a distinction between violence in support of progressive ideals and regressive ideals and saying that its a meaningless distinction because of recency bias. Literally, enlighten me on this deep-seated use of force as a tool of political power by the powerless -- the blacks, the Jews, the gays, the refugees, the indigenous peoples -- instead of a privilege reserved for those who already have the power to deploy violence? The only people who have ever been a legitimate threat to the ruling class are other members of the ruling class. That's the way it's always been. Yvonmukluk posted:Given the problem Sam had with Karli was her methodology and not her ideology, maybe that's the point? In this show's fiction, Karli espouses leftist ideology yes, but is also saddled with right-wing methodology. Any real-world messages we can take away from this are naturally going to be really conflicting, which is why we can see so many complaints about it being centrist. And I don't think it's actually centrist, exactly, but again...the specific instance here I'm referring to has Sam berating someone for using the terrorism scare tactic buzzword against a left-wing activist, which would be completely fatuous in the real world, yes, but one-hundred percent appropriate in this fictive context. The show's Big Themes just don't stand up to scrutiny. They fall apart with the least bit of critical thinking.
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May 1, 2021 15:02
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tsob posted:So not the protagonist then? Because the definition of protagonist has nothing to do with driving the action, and never has. What is the definition of protagonist then?
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May 1, 2021 15:06
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Jedit posted:I'm not trying to draw too deep a parallel, but the Red Army Faction was founded as a direct response to what they perceived as a failure of the de-Nazification process in post-war Germany. The GRC aren't Nazis, but it's the same rough situation and the Flag Smashers follow the same rough trajectory. They see the leaders as the same imperialists who were in charge before the crisis event that divided the world and continuing their work, so they go outside their country to train (or in this case, get the Serum) and form a guerilla group. The results are also about the same, although the Flag Smashers speedrun it - attacks on installations resulting in civilian casualties, escalating to direct attempts to kidnap and murder senior figures in the "regime", and finally almost the entire leadership dying in custody under suspicious circumstances. drat you got a good point, like weakest point about the Weather Underground and the fate of what happened to Karli and the Red Army Faction would be pretty on the nose even if people won't admit it.
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May 1, 2021 15:09
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Boxman posted:The problem is that GRC guy was using the terrorist label to shut down discussion. I don't think it's the label so much as the fact that it's used as a conversation ender, which is absolutely a thing in the real world too. Like, after 9/11, the anti-war movement was the place to find people asking "what happened to make people hate the US this much," and the answer was "because the TERRORISTS hate our FREEDOMS." I'd have to look at the actual scene again, but I think the same thing happened in the show, where GRC guy wanted to plow through the concerns of the refugees by just saying "they're led by a terrorist." Which is true, but shuts down discourse in a way that doesn't actually solve problems. Especially when you consider that a whole poo poo-load of "babbys" watching this show have never had even one discourse. Edited to add that if I went over six weeks and many many pages upthread I could find my own quote referencing Werner Herzog on The Boondocks and generally mocking the idea that a Disney+ show would have anything of substance to say on the African-American experience. I was damned wrong in that mockery. This was much, much more than I ever expected on a Disney+ show. Everyone fucked around with this message at 15:22 on May 1, 2021 |
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May 1, 2021 15:14
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BrianWilly posted:Remind me of the time Malcolm X took a truck full of people hostage? Blew up building full of workers? My dude read a loving history book the loving french revolution, the hatian revolution, the American revolution, russian revolution, cuban revolution and other violent acts against politicians and militaries It is rarer for there to be a real socioeconomic change in a country without violent action than with one.
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May 1, 2021 15:34
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its disingenuous to call this "Baby's First Discourse" The show may be clunky and overexecuting in some ways but this a more nuanced take on race in this mainstream space than we've maybe ever seen in genre movies. I'm sure there's lots of indie sci-fi and fantasy flicks with a deeper level of discourse but this actually says something about race in America and goes beyond the surface level. It's not high level doctoral theory about sociological implications of tuskeegee or anything of that level, but it goes much deeper than the extremely milqueoast "it's hard to be black in America" which I think we've all seen a million times and that's more of what I'd call Baby's first anything.
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May 1, 2021 15:37
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The show suggests that the appropriate way to achieve justice is by stirring public rebukes and not through violence. Even though the Avengers solve 99% of their problems through violence.
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May 1, 2021 15:38
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I don't think this show is anything particularly special as far as it's themes and message, and it's largely undercut by giving Walker a sympathetic moment and chance at a future while killing off Karli's I enjoyed it for what it was, but it is very much just normal liberal doctrine of "more black and women imperialists plz"
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May 1, 2021 15:43
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Ravel posted:The show suggests that the appropriate way to achieve justice is by stirring public rebukes and not through violence. To be fair, most of the time the Avengers try to solve their problems though methods OTHER than Violence only for the villains to visit violence upon them. They're not the PREvengers after all!
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May 1, 2021 15:43
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Ravel posted:The show suggests that the appropriate way to achieve justice is by stirring public rebukes and not through violence. I mean, it was more 'the ballot or the bullet', because the rebuke was basically 'if you don't want another, more extreme Karli you have to listen to these people'.
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May 1, 2021 15:45
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Like the outcome of this thing is probably something like "Karli's law" that provides payment to help resettle and make housing for those displaced in their countries. But also "oddly" enough gives the GRC insanely more power and forces those countries to play ball with the Americans on more American nonsense like bases and other military poo poo.
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May 1, 2021 15:49
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live with fruit posted:What is the definition of protagonist then? A protagonist is the person whose story you are following and the main point of view character for a story. That's kind of it, really. They normally represent the core theme or idea of a story in some form too, but pretty much anything else beyond being the person you experience the story through is just an addition to the role.
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May 1, 2021 15:59
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Dexo posted:Like the outcome of this thing is probably something like "Karli's law" that provides payment to help resettle and make housing for those displaced in their countries. But also "oddly" enough gives the GRC insanely more power and forces those countries to play ball with the Americans on more American nonsense like bases and other military poo poo. The GRC isn't an American organization. The MCU has seemingly gone out of its way to put international organizations above the Avengers.
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May 1, 2021 16:02
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Dexo posted:My dude read a loving history book the loving french revolution, the hatian revolution, the American revolution, russian revolution, cuban revolution and other violent acts against politicians and militaries Every one of those except the Haitian revolution was successful because the military, local police forces, or both joined the revolution. They weren't a tiny force of guerrillas overthrowing the systems of power. The MCU equivalent would be Karli and Sam talking it out in Latvia and Sam calling in the rest of the Avengers to replace the GRC.
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May 1, 2021 16:03
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The entire point the show is trying to make is that both Walker and Karli start out meaning well in their respective ways, but they both took things way way too far, completely lost perspective, and caused collateral damage. The road to hell and all that. The GRC/Flagsmashers are clearly stand-ins for the US culture wars, but the show itself doesn't really have a position on the conflict itself. It's more interested in the idea of how any ideological position can become destructive if the individuals lose awareness and restraint. See Sams 'both sides' speech at the end. I can already hear some goons going 'pfft, melty centralists' about that, but a) its Disney, of course it's not going to have a strong political stance but more importantly b) the politics of the GRC or Flagsmashers is completely besides the point anyway. For both antagonists, it's classic tragic storytelling.
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May 1, 2021 16:03
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https://twitter.com/MsMarvelNews/status/1388508117101580288
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May 1, 2021 16:12
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A story in which the Avengers are the motivating force in the story might have been starting with Sam and Bucky beating up the GRC and expropriating vaccines to redistribute it themselves to the people who need it the most. We can acknowledge that the GRC are the ultimate villains, but because the agents don't act violently but via immoral legislation and contracts, the Avengers are impotent since they refuse to use violence proactively.
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May 1, 2021 16:13
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Not bad work on the costume, shoes could use some work tho
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May 1, 2021 16:17
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There's a CIA think tank somewhere that's high-fiving over manipulating the next generation of leftists into believing screeching on the internet over superhero shows not having enough blood-spattered praxis is equal to blood spattered praxis. Seriously: practice what you preach, buy a rifle, and go start a leftist revolutionary militia in the woods. Please, don't take your phones. Goddamit, bring back the people wanting Bucky and Sam to gently caress, already.
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May 1, 2021 16:20
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Ravel posted:A story in which the Avengers are the motivating force in the story might have been starting with Sam and Bucky beating up the GRC and expropriating vaccines to redistribute it themselves to the people who need it the most. So the Avengers use their powers to take down governments and rule the world?
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May 1, 2021 16:20
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The problem with this show is that it fundamentally views the world from the point of a corporation, though one that is staffed by at least some thoughtful people. Right and Left are represented by John Walker and Karli. It’s a reasonably well-written show so both are shown to be good in some ways and flawed in others, though the show does more directly sympathise with Karli’s ideology (though since Walker is also the status quo, it more inherently supports that side too). However, what actually happens with these two sides? Walker is wrong-headed and fucks up massively, but ultimately can be reasoned with, and is a force for good in the end. Meanwhile Karli moves further and further into extremism, kills, or tries to kill, a lot of people and eventually simply has to be put down. Is this an accurate view of the two sides in America currently? Because BLM’s body count hovers pretty close to zero, while this January the right attempted a fascist coup that would murder congresspeople, end democracy and install a dictator. This threat has also not yet subsided. Precisely who is going Too Far at the moment? A truer view of American politics right now would have had John Walker so enraged at the slight against him from the system that he went to murder the GRC himself, even as they passed laws that agreed with him, and the Flag Smashers teamed up with Sam to take him down. But the reason that didn’t happen is the corporation’s own fears and concerns. They might not terribly like it if fascism took over, but it probably wouldn’t effect Disney’s bottom line much if it did happen. Alternatively, there is a real chance that if the left got in power that they might enact extremist policies, like demanding the appropriate regulation and taxation of theme parks in Florida. That said, it could have been worse. For instance, both FATWS and Wonder Woman 1984 are centrist works, the former at least acknowledges that serious reforms need to be made in the world, while the latter’s entire message is that everything is great now, we shouldn’t change anything, and in fact it’s wrong to want to.
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May 1, 2021 16:30
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live with fruit posted:So the Avengers use their powers to take down governments and rule the world? Only if you believe that's what resistance involves. What does proactive superpower responsibilities look like? Here's Graeber on the issue: Graeber posted:These “heroes” are purely reactionary, in the literal sense. They have no projects of their own, at least not in their role as heroes: as Clark Kent, Superman may be constantly trying, and failing, to get into Lois Lane’s pants, but as Superman, he is purely reactive. In fact, superheroes seem almost utterly lacking in imagination: like Bruce Wayne, who with all the money in the world can’t seem to think of anything to do with it other than to indulge in the occasional act of charity; it never seems to occur to Superman that he could easily carve free magic cities out of mountains.
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May 1, 2021 16:32
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Marsupial Ape posted:
Yeah, that scene with the wrench was pretty 
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May 1, 2021 16:37
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I think that both shows are attempting to make all the characters complicated. People are trying to then reconcile complicated with the more traditional clearly defined good/bad archetypes. The thesis of show, Sam’s viewpoint, is that we should use our empathy to navigate this complexity, rather than resorting to simplistic thinking and violence.
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May 1, 2021 16:46
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Ravel posted:Only if you believe that's what resistance involves. What does proactive superpower responsibilities look like? Here's Graeber on the issue: But that's kind of the point: Do we want superpowered individuals deciding what's best for the world and carrying it out?
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May 1, 2021 16:48
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Heroes, like the Greek pantheon long before them, are foils, they're mirrors, not characters in and of themselves. Ascribing human qualities to them they explicitly do not have is a disingenuous argument at best and at worst entirely misses the point of the story. This is kinda why I like Sam. The human quality he does not possess is "punching." He is uniquely positioned to seek and attempt to implement solutions that do not explicitly involve direct violence, which, while a sad state of affairs for storytelling that it is so unique, is still a goal worth pursuing even when simply murdering anyone who doesn't think the way you do* is quick and easy and you don't have to think about it any more. I mean unless time keeps going after you do the thing. * - existential threat or no, if you are the sole arbiter of who represents a threat and there is no way to undo that particular action, well. You better be fuckin' infallible before I trust anyone with that level of responsibility. This goes for real life, too - Murder leaves no room for redemption or disagreement...and given how much I like to argue I'd be pretty unhappy if you took that away from me.
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May 1, 2021 16:49
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live with fruit posted:But that's kind of the point: Do we want superpowered individuals deciding what's best for the world and carrying it out? In a superhero story the heroes assert their agency violently. And in the MCU the distinction between the Captain Americas and the rest is that their moral centre and sense of empathy is also mostly (always?) in the right place. I would like to believe that a hero in, say, Apartheid South Africa wouldn't refuse to act because it wasn't state sanctioned.
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May 1, 2021 16:59
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this show takes place six months after endgame. The GRC had to be thrown up overnight to deal with the fallout of 4 billion displaced people and there's no way they had anything even vaguely resembling reasonable staffing. The fact that a warehouse in the middle of Latvia had medicine that could have been distributed is a minor logistical miracle. Karli is a terrorist because given the timelines she was walking down the street, saw a pile of dust turn into a person, and was all "Hanz, get the loving super soldier serum, this means war"
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May 1, 2021 17:01
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Ravel posted:In a superhero story the heroes assert their agency violently. And in the MCU the distinction between the Captain Americas and the rest is that their moral centre and sense of empathy is also mostly (always?) in the right place. Which side are we assuming this hero acts on? Is he more Sam or Walker?
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May 1, 2021 17:04
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Azhais posted:this show takes place six months after endgame. The GRC had to be thrown up overnight to deal with the fallout of 4 billion displaced people and there's no way they had anything even vaguely resembling reasonable staffing. The fact that a warehouse in the middle of Latvia had medicine that could have been distributed is a minor logistical miracle. The GRC's whole deal was shoving the people who'd been dusted back into their homes with no thought for anything that had happened in the last five years. Their plan was to violently and forcibly deport all of the people who had crossed borders to help populate places that had been left decimated by Endgame. By the sounds of it the original idea was that they were going to deliberately unleash a plague on the refugees to wipe them out but... yeah.
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May 1, 2021 17:06
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Azhais posted:this show takes place six months after endgame. The GRC had to be thrown up overnight to deal with the fallout of 4 billion displaced people and there's no way they had anything even vaguely resembling reasonable staffing. The fact that a warehouse in the middle of Latvia had medicine that could have been distributed is a minor logistical miracle. In the past I’ve used the story of the cursed fig tree to try to explain the anger of marginal people. To explain this : “Then he said to the tree, “May no one ever eat fruit from you again.” And his disciples heard him say it.” The failure of a system to bear fruit when people are hungry is not excused by the fact that it isn’t the season for figs. People who are marginal or have been marginal get this immediately. People who have not been marginal don’t seem to. They waffle about the interpretation and focus on explaining away the failure.
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May 1, 2021 17:11
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stev posted:By the sounds of it the original idea was that they were going to deliberately unleash a plague on the refugees to wipe them out but... yeah. Wait, that seems like quite a leap from the pre-existing "there might have been a plague storyline" leap.
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May 1, 2021 17:12
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Marsupial Ape posted:Goddamit, bring back the people wanting Bucky and Sam to gently caress, already. Also Bucky and Sarah getting together would be funnier because of how much Sam would hate it.
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May 1, 2021 17:16
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Azhais posted:this show takes place six months after endgame. The GRC had to be thrown up overnight to deal with the fallout of 4 billion displaced people and there's no way they had anything even vaguely resembling reasonable staffing. The fact that a warehouse in the middle of Latvia had medicine that could have been distributed is a minor logistical miracle. There were a few extra steps involved. The real sequence would have been: Karli walks down the street and sees a pile of dust turn into a person. That returned person then kicks Karli and her family out of his former home onto the streets and also takes back their job. At that point Karli and her family get stuck in a displaced persons camp where most of them die of diseases due to lack of medicine. Karli ends up in Madripoor (likely sucking off guys in alleys for food money because corrupt criminal cities are kind of tough on cute teenage girls with no means of support) where she hooks up with Sharon, meets some like-minded people and after all that horrible poo poo was "Hanz, get the loving SSS, this really does mean war." stev posted:The GRC's whole deal was shoving the people who'd been dusted back into their homes with no thought for anything that had happened in the last five years. Their plan was to violently and forcibly deport all of the people who had crossed borders to help populate places that had been left decimated by Endgame. By the sounds of it the original idea was that they were going to deliberately unleash a plague on the refugees to wipe them out but... yeah. The plague plan was apparently going to be Karli's. She was going to unleash some virus with the idea of killing off all the Returned people and take the world back to the Thanos state. And confused story-telling via the Flag-smasher or not, I'm really glad that didn't happen and that Karli and her people were presented as folks with a righteous cause who used unacceptable methods in pursuit of that cause.
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May 1, 2021 17:32
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STAC Goat posted:Wait, that seems like quite a leap from the pre-existing "there might have been a plague storyline" leap. I thought the idea was that the Flag Smashers wanted to unleash a virus that had come and gone during the blip.
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May 1, 2021 17:33
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live with fruit posted:I thought the idea was that the Flag Smashers wanted to unleash a virus that had come and gone during the blip. Unless I missed something I think that the showrunners have actively denied that there was a pandemic storyline so its all just speculation. It starts with "a storyline had to be cut because of the pandemic" then moves to "the editing on Karli's mother figure dying is weird and might have been overdubbed from a pandemic storyline" to now apparently "the GRC/Flag Smashers were unleashing a pandemic as overtly comic book villain maneuvers to wipe out millions/billions."
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May 1, 2021 17:37
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Solenna posted:
I hope they DO write Bucky and Sarah getting together, and are not shy about one of their heroes actually trying to have a normal relationship and new family. It would be nice, I don't know. Oh and yes, Sam's reaction to it would be so much fun.
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May 1, 2021 17:40
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RatHat posted:For kills only in the show it’s gotta be Sharon, direct or indirect. He didn't. He was fighting exclusively to disable or disarm, and didn't kill even when he easily could have (like with the knife fight, where he embeds the knife into the floor as a pointed warning). Here's the Winter Soldier stunt double talking a little bit about what they were doing with Bucky's fighting: https://twitter.com/falconsoldierTV/status/1388197409277157376. "You can't dethrone the king" is pretty bad-rear end, though.
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May 1, 2021 17:43
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Everyone posted:The plague plan was apparently going to be Karli's. She was going to unleash some virus with the idea of killing off all the Returned people and take the world back to the Thanos state. And confused story-telling via the Flag-smasher or not, I'm really glad that didn't happen and that Karli and her people were presented as folks with a righteous cause who used unacceptable methods in pursuit of that cause. Yeah, I am glad the Flag Smashers weren't explicitly "Thanos was good, actually". The thing about the Snap and the Blip that makes it hard to completely map onto the real world haves and have nots is that the Snap was egalitarian. Just as many powerful people got dusted as didn't. So the idea that the powers that be would come down favoring one side over the other doesn't exactly track. Though I guess what the show sort of clumsily said is the drive is to return to status quo ante bellum.
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