|
Crazycryodude posted:Can't wait for them to reveal the lovingly detailed monarchist and fascist trees for the Soviet rework also the monarchist tree will restore the Romanovs despite them all being dead
|
#
?
May 4, 2021 01:17
|
|
|
|
| # ? May 12, 2024 04:51 |
|
|
Alt-hist trees in hoi4 were a mistake in hindsight. It would have been better for paradox to go all in on historical content, using their content designers to make deep and cool historical trees, and just leave all the what if stuff to mods.
|
|
#
?
May 4, 2021 01:21
|
|
|
VostokProgram posted:Alt-hist trees in hoi4 were a mistake in hindsight. It would have been better for paradox to go all in on historical content, using their content designers to make deep and cool historical trees, and just leave all the what if stuff to mods. the free nuke thing is part of their historical tree 
|
|
#
?
May 4, 2021 01:25
|
|
|
The problem with Hoi is the alt history is the only reason a reasonable person would play HOI over any other WWII wargame which is gonna have much better and more accurate gameplay. But the Alt History poo poo is somehow sub Kaiserreich tier.
|
|
#
?
May 4, 2021 01:27
|
|
|
Crazycryodude posted:Can't wait for them to reveal the lovingly detailed monarchist and fascist trees for the Soviet rework Well, this is a given. No snark or cynicism here. Apparently there is a significant majority of Hoi4 players that choose monarchist paths. Kaiser Germany seems to be super popular. So it stands to reason that there will absolutely be a tsarist/monarchist path for Russia. VostokProgram posted:Alt-hist trees in hoi4 were a mistake in hindsight. It would have been better for paradox to go all in on historical content, using their content designers to make deep and cool historical trees, and just leave all the what if stuff to mods. I don't know. I mostly play historical Hoi4 games. On the other hand, I do like the ability to selectively make alt-history paths happen. I never play with non-historical selected, but I will often play games where I very specifically pick alt-historical paths for specific nations. I enjoy deviating slightly from the historical route, but not to the point where it's completely unrecognizable as ww2.
|
|
#
?
May 4, 2021 01:28
|
|
|
Gaius Marius posted:The problem with Hoi is the alt history is the only reason a reasonable person would play HOI over any other WWII wargame which is gonna have much better and more accurate gameplay. That's not true, people played HOI2 after all. E: these days almost all of my HOI4 games are KR, TNO, or some other mod. The historical stuff just hasn't been given enough justice, and the alt-hist stuff suffers because it's all these different weird things that magically happen in 1936, instead of being part of a coherent narrative. Yaoi Gagarin fucked around with this message at 01:34 on May 4, 2021 |
|
#
?
May 4, 2021 01:32
|
|
|
VostokProgram posted:The historical stuff just hasn't been given enough justice, and the alt-hist stuff suffers because it's all these different weird things that magically happen in 1936, instead of being part of a coherent narrative. You've got a good point there. I used to be opposed to the idea that the game should start in 1933 or so, but I've increasingly warmed up to the idea. Would I pay money for an expansion that only adds alt-history content? Maybe not. It depends on what kind of content is on offer. Would I buy an expansion that exclusively offers fleshed-out historical content? Absolutely. I'd buy it and twice on Sunday.
|
|
#
?
May 4, 2021 01:40
|
|
|
AnEdgelord posted:also the monarchist tree will restore the Romanovs despite them all being dead incorrect, there are two legitimate romanov pretenders during the HOI4 time period.
|
|
#
?
May 4, 2021 01:41
|
|
|
Gaius Marius posted:The problem with Hoi is the alt history is the only reason a reasonable person would play HOI over any other WWII wargame which is gonna have much better and more accurate gameplay. I disagree. Even without alt history, people would still play the HoI games because they're so much more approachable. What other WWII games are out there that anyone other than ridiculous grognards play? Though I like the alt history anyway, so whatever.
|
|
#
?
May 4, 2021 01:47
|
|
|
VostokProgram posted:That's not true, people played HOI2 after all. Having typed this out I think one problem I have with it is that I feel like the vintage France tree you could just pick up and go and do okay regardless of which path you took. Now though it kinda feels like you need to do five test games before you can get serious about it. I used to play multiplayer coop with two friends but one thing that has killed it off (at least to me) is that you need practice as the nation you want to play as and that takes something away from the fun. Even in single player you cant really just sit down to play a new country, you have to research it, run through it a few times, then get serious about playing it through. In comparison, if you play EU4, if you know how to play the game, you can play like 80% of the countries on the map without having even heard the name before. All of *that* being said, I still really like the game (other than espionage, which I wish would go away) and I love that PDX is exploring making logistics more of a thing. I love that they added alt-history paths and most of what they have done with the game.
|
|
#
?
May 4, 2021 01:52
|
|
|
Dr. Video Games 0031 posted:I disagree. Even without alt history, people would still play the HoI games because they're so much more approachable. What other WWII games are out there that anyone other than ridiculous grognards play? Strategic Command WW2 and Panzer Corps are pretty easy to wrap your head around if you can figure out a Paradox game.
|
|
#
?
May 4, 2021 01:55
|
|
|
Gaius Marius posted:The problem with Hoi is the alt history is the only reason a reasonable person would play HOI over any other WWII wargame which is gonna have much better and more accurate gameplay. I think you're overestimating how playable most wargames are.
|
|
#
?
May 4, 2021 01:59
|
|
|
Gaius Marius posted:Strategic Command WW2 and Panzer Corps are pretty easy to wrap your head around if you can figure out a Paradox game. Uhhhh, sorry but no. If those games added alt-history stuff like HoI4, they would still only get a fraction of the sales. The idea that people only play HoI4 for the alt-history is absurd. You are either underestimating HoI4's mass appeal and approachability factor or overestimating those games'.
|
|
#
?
May 4, 2021 02:47
|
|
|
I mostly play HoI4 because like manufacturing tanks and then smashing those tanks into things. I am moderately concerned that the next DLC with its tank designer might have real-world impacts on my job.
|
|
#
?
May 4, 2021 02:53
|
|
|
I've never played HOI, but the other Paradox titles could certainly stand to hue far closer to the historical course of events. Alt-History is much less interesting when absolutely everything is ahistorical (and usually ahistorical in the exact same way as the last dozen games you played)
|
|
#
?
May 4, 2021 03:17
|
|
Yes, it's like a lava lamp.
|
PittTheElder posted:I've never played HOI, but the other Paradox titles could certainly stand to hue far closer to the historical course of events. Alt-History is much less interesting when absolutely everything is ahistorical (and usually ahistorical in the exact same way as the last dozen games you played) With HoI4 there's an option to put everything on rails so it plays out in the exact same historical way every time if you want. Maybe something like that could be done in some of their other games too, but overall I'd say their current approach to EU is way better than it was in the event-driven EU2 times.
|
|
#
?
May 4, 2021 03:41
|
|
|
I really don't get why they don't just put in a historical accuracy slider at start. Seems like it solves a lot of problems
|
|
#
?
May 4, 2021 04:06
|
|
|
Gaius Marius posted:I really don't get why they don't just put in a historical accuracy slider at start. Seems like it solves a lot of problems I dunno if this is snark but they did actually add a switch to enable/disable alt-history at game start.
|
|
#
?
May 4, 2021 04:09
|
|
|
In euiv and vicky, ckiii though
|
|
#
?
May 4, 2021 04:10
|
|
|
CK2 did have the supernatural switch. I don't recall any supernatural stuff in CK3. The further-back historical games don't really have clear historical paths to lock you into, and it feels like breaking them out of their current path forward is difficult and earned, while you can just flip the Nazis out of power effortlessly in HOI. I get not wanting the latter but not caring about the former.
|
|
#
?
May 4, 2021 04:18
|
|
|
Cease to Hope posted:CK2 did have the supernatural switch. I don't recall any supernatural stuff in CK3. as much as it feels very weird to simply flip the nazis out of power, they came very close to having exactly that happen more than once in the actual pre-war period. they probably shouldn't just go quietly tho
|
|
#
?
May 4, 2021 04:32
|
|
|
A game focused on a specific war also has fewer plausible paths to take.
|
|
#
?
May 4, 2021 04:35
|
|
|
Also most of the 'guaranteed history' stuff in at least HoI4 (not sure about EUIV) is based around the AI making certain decisions on which focuses and decisions to take. CK3 generally doesn't have that level of precision on what options are available to the AI at the time. The most I think they could do is give buffs to people who canonically do well in real history, but like, they kind of already do that and it still doesn't prevent weird things from happening.
|
|
#
?
May 4, 2021 04:49
|
|
|
Also, CK is a period of history that is so patchy that a bunch of the world is just made of legend, nationalist myth, or procedurally-generated filler. That's a bit different from HOI, which is living memory.
|
|
#
?
May 4, 2021 05:02
|
|
|
So in the latest hotfix they made the following decisionquote:The Mandala System government reform is only usable when the Leviathan DLC is enabled. The Mandala previously had the Dharma DLC as a requirement, so now they are selling it again with Leviathan.
|
|
#
?
May 4, 2021 07:24
|
|
|
I could never get into HoI4 and I don't get it at all. I had an only game as Soviets and I didn't understand what happened in that game. I didn't use navy or air forces at all. Something happened in that game, frontlines moved, I knew nothing about why or how can I influence it all. But that on itself is not that bad. Learning is fun. The bad part was that by the end of that game I conquered Europe and only Britain and some minors remained non-communist. So I wonder why would I learn to play that game, to speedrun world conquest? To play weak minors with generic decisions and events? To go for ahistorical paths for majors that involve civil war for added challenge?
|
|
#
?
May 4, 2021 07:39
|
|
|
The real purpose of HoI4 is for the mods.
|
|
#
?
May 4, 2021 07:57
|
|
|
Pump it up! Do it! posted:So in the latest hotfix they made the following decision This is probably because they changed the reform - it now has an extra modifier added to it involving the concentrate development mechanic, which is gated behind Leviathan. I would assume they were rushing to get the hotfix out and forgot that they'd need to replace it with a non-leviathan version of the same reform.
|
|
#
?
May 4, 2021 08:08
|
|
|
I am yet to see a mod for any game (that is not a bugfix, balance, UI or graphics improvement) that doesn't feel like a kitchensink of unedited ideas shoehorned into UI and gameplay systems that do not support it. I guess mods are fine when you just like exploring design ideas, not playing them. And every time someone says "try this mod, it's really good" about Paradox game I open it and see introductory events configuring mod that are more complex than most IDEs. Then decision list has a dozen decisions like "show/hide genocide options" or "click me to see the list of current dragons in the game via event". Then you get events with dumb Skyrim references. Then it works extremely slow but at the same time AI doesn't do anything. Then you discover that any click you do has two screens of effects like "+0.1% to peasant population growth" with "20 rebel stacks spawn" hidden somewhere on the 48th line. It's fine some people like it, but if I'd wanted all of this experience I'd just play EU4 Leviathan right now.
|
|
#
?
May 4, 2021 08:10
|
|
|
ilitarist posted:I am yet to see a mod for any game (that is not a bugfix, balance, UI or graphics improvement) that doesn't feel like a kitchensink of unedited ideas shoehorned into UI and gameplay systems that do not support it. I guess mods are fine when you just like exploring design ideas, not playing them. That's a strange thing to say, considering the Stellaris devs just mostly integrated the Carrying Capacity mod into the base game with the release of Nemesis.
|
|
#
?
May 4, 2021 08:19
|
|
|
Torrannor posted:That's a strange thing to say, considering the Stellaris devs just mostly integrated the Carrying Capacity mod into the base game with the release of Nemesis. ilitarist posted:(that is not a bugfix, balance, UI or graphics improvement)
|
|
#
?
May 4, 2021 08:21
|
|
|
I honestly overlooked that, sorry. Guilli's planet modifiers are another very popular mod, that expands the number of planet modifiers, gives special precursor dig site, and adds new relics. It's really good, and imho slots seamlessly into the base game. And the devs did hire Guilli, so they apparently agree. I think it's not unreasonable to be annoyed over introductory menus that are super complex, but on the other hand, there's nothing worse than a good mod getting unnecessary additions that you can't disable at the start of game. Often enough, good mods start out pretty streamlined, then the creator feels a need to add more and more, with the whole project devolving into the exact "kitchensink" madness, and suddenly you can't enjoy the good core part of the mod without those often far less balanced, less fun and/or less stable extra parts.
|
|
#
?
May 4, 2021 08:27
|
|
|
ilitarist posted:I am yet to see a mod for any game (that is not a bugfix, balance, UI or graphics improvement) that doesn't feel like a kitchensink of unedited ideas shoehorned into UI and gameplay systems that do not support it. Not a paradox game, but Fall From Heaven 2 for Civ 4 came pretty close to feeling like a fully coherent total conversion with new systems that didn't seem hacked in. There was also a non-TC general improvement mod that I really liked that added more interesting barbarian and unrest systems among other things, all seamlessly integrated into the base game. It helps that Civ 4 gave modders some amount of code access, allowing them to use custom DLL libraries and poo poo. Paradox games are different because they don't give modders the power to tinker with the engine itself. You can still do some pretty extensive overhauls, but you're limited to only the mechanics that Paradox gives you. If you want to add new features, you have to find a way to kludge them together using the existing systems only. Anbennar for EU4 has a minority culture system that is implemented through provincial modifies and is interacted with only through events. You have to click a decision to get an event that gives you a list of cultures that then gives you more events to set flags that dictate what your stance is towards each culture. It would probably be rather quick and easy to implement in a more seamless manner if they had the ability to do so, but instead they have to make do. There's just no way around that kind of jank when using overhaul mods or TCs in a Paradox game.
|
|
#
?
May 4, 2021 08:52
|
|
|
I think there's a lot of mods that add fairly fleshed out subsystems that are really solid and well-integrated, but I agree that total conversions of that caliber are vanishingly rare for basically any genre. I don't think the reason why is too mysterious though; in today's world where getting competent with e.g. Unity and Blender and making a full game that's entirely your own doesn't actually take that much more of a commitment than making a total conversion mod and having to bang your head against the poorly documented community tools and wrestle with the multitude of hardcoded things you can't actually change, the modders that have enough financial resources/free time to make a game-quality total conversion are probably just going to make their own games instead.
|
|
#
?
May 4, 2021 09:15
|
|
|
Torrannor posted:I honestly overlooked that, sorry. That planet mod sounds like a good one. Maybe I'll try it if I launch Stellaris again. Steam allows for modular mod download and I saw it used by many mods. Like Star Trek mod for Stellaris has separate mods for music, UI and some other additions I think. Also CK3 has solved this by allowing mods to add game options. Dr. Video Games 0031 posted:You have to click a decision to get an event that gives you a list of cultures that then gives you more events to set flags that dictate what your stance is towards each culture. Yeah, exactly what I'm talking about. An important feature might be hiding in an event summoned by some button somewhere. And event window is not suited to show you any type of info. M&T mod for EU4 shoves ASCII tables in event windows and it's not something I expected to see after 1992 outside of console dev tools. Or CK2 Elder Kings mod implementing a lot of magic spells you can cast. Some are diplomatic interactions, some are intrigue decisions. You need more clicks to charm someone than to win a war. If your feature requires that kind of UI then maybe you should abstract it. FfH2 yas impressive, yes. But even it had that kitchensink problem and juvenility, like adding Guybrush Treepwood hero into your dark fantasy world. He has a button that makes him sing songs. I also liked Rhey's and Fall. That mod knew when to stop and how to tweak the systems just enough without going too far.
|
|
#
?
May 4, 2021 09:21
|
|
|
ilitarist posted:And every time someone says "try this mod, it's really good" about Paradox game I open it and see introductory events configuring mod that are more complex than most IDEs. Then decision list has a dozen decisions like "show/hide genocide options" or "click me to see the list of current dragons in the game via event". Then you get events with dumb Skyrim references. Then it works extremely slow but at the same time AI doesn't do anything. Then you discover that any click you do has two screens of effects like "+0.1% to peasant population growth" with "20 rebel stacks spawn" hidden somewhere on the 48th line. haha this is such a perfect summary, and always exactly my experience as well. I think CK3 is meant to be better in that it lets modders actually add UI elements? Maybe?
|
|
#
?
May 4, 2021 09:32
|
|
|
fuf posted:haha this is such a perfect summary, and always exactly my experience as well. yes that list of complaints is moot with CK3
|
|
#
?
May 4, 2021 09:55
|
|
|
AAAAA! Real Muenster posted:I have found playing as Spain completely impossible because the tree is just so inscrutable; it makes no sense to me and I cant figure out how to actually do anything successfully - I always lose. IIRC you need to spend all your political power on firing events that delay the civil war, and when the war kicks off, you get control of the territories where you had more influence. Too bad your national focii still rely on you fully owning historical provinces, so either you know the exact historical borders of the factions or you have to read up beforehand what you should own to get your "spawn troops here" NFs. It's quite inexplicable to me why they keep stuffing every single unique gameplay system into the decisions/events screen, same for France's instability and USA's Senate stuff. E: I still haven't figured out what I'm supposed to do with the "break the London Naval Treaty" event that's on a countdown at the start of the game. Gaius Marius posted:Panzer Corps No counters no buy GrossMurpel fucked around with this message at 12:35 on May 4, 2021 |
|
#
?
May 4, 2021 12:32
|
|
|
Looking forward to the day when focus trees look like Path of Exile's passive tree:
|
|
#
?
May 4, 2021 12:58
|
|
|
|
| # ? May 12, 2024 04:51 |
|
|
Reveilled posted:Looking forward to the day when focus trees look like Path of Exile's passive tree: That's kind of what I was going for with Mexico
|
|
#
?
May 4, 2021 13:12
|
|
