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Orvin posted:For another data point, in Illinois, the Dresden Nuclear station is slated to be shut down later this year. Jackson Generation is 1.2 GW of combined cycle gas fired generation that comes online in a month or two a couple miles away. Also, ground was just broken on Three Rivers Energy Center, another gas generation site. This one you can see from the entrance of Dresden. Biden is talking about subsidies for Nuclear, so I've got my fingers crossed. But yeah, we're doubling down on Fossil Fuels pretty hard overall...
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May 7, 2021 19:32
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We’re basically doing the worst possible thing for everyone right now through a mix of replacing nuclear with fossil fuels and attempting to keep very old reactors running.
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May 7, 2021 20:43
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A GIANT PARSNIP posted:We’re basically doing the worst possible thing for everyone right now through a mix of replacing nuclear with fossil fuels and attempting to keep very old reactors running. There's been studies showing that even older reactors are not suffering from neutron embrittlement as much as was thought would be the case, so there's little reason to decommission them rather than refurbish them and keep them in service. Basically, any nuclear decom'ed right now rather than decom'ing a natural gas or coal plant is practically an environmental crime.
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May 7, 2021 21:09
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CommieGIR posted:There's been studies showing that even older reactors are not suffering from neutron embrittlement as much as was thought would be the case, so there's little reason to decommission them rather than refurbish them and keep them in service. The main problem with older reactors is that they have less or older safety systems preventing catastrophic failure, isn't it?
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May 7, 2021 21:54
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Lurking Haro posted:The main problem with older reactors is that they have less or older safety systems preventing catastrophic failure, isn't it? Not really, no. even Gen I/II PWR/BWRs have about the same safety systems and most still in operation have been upgraded with newer safety systems to address things found from TMI and other events. We've been rocking the same designs for a long time, hell the Votgle 3 and 4 reactors are the newest ones built, and the only American examples of the AP1000 Gen IIIs which itself is based on legacy designs, all others are basically Westinghouse designs or variants like System 80 from Combustion Engineering from the Gen II era. All operating American nuclear plants are required to have sufficient safety systems to handle loss of coolant or loss of offsite power events without issue.
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May 7, 2021 22:00
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CommieGIR posted:Biden is talking about subsidies for Nuclear, so I've got my fingers crossed. Everything I have been hearing is that anything Biden is proposing will not be signed in time to save Byron or Dresden. The only thing that can save them is action at the Illinois state level before the recess at the end of the month. I have no idea on the progress on any bills moving through the state legislature. The Illinois governor has seemed hopeful of getting something pushed through, but it is getting kinda late for this. I do kinda wonder what having two nuclear stations being decommissioned at the same time does for Exelon’s plans to spin off all their generation into it’s own company in early 2022. I think conventional wisdom is that money would be found to somehow save the Byron station, possibly at the expense of Dresden. Considering Byron is one of the “newer” stations in the country, and Dresden is one of the oldest.
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May 8, 2021 02:24
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CommieGIR posted:There's been studies showing that even older reactors are not suffering from neutron embrittlement as much as was thought would be the case, so there's little reason to decommission them rather than refurbish them and keep them in service. California shutting down Diablo Canyon is a loving travesty
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May 8, 2021 02:38
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Heck Yes! Loam! posted:California FTFY
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May 8, 2021 04:42
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Orvin posted:For another data point, in Illinois, the Dresden Nuclear station is slated to be shut down later this year. Jackson Generation is 1.2 GW of combined cycle gas fired generation that comes online in a month or two a couple miles away. Also, ground was just broken on Three Rivers Energy Center, another gas generation site. This one you can see from the entrance of Dresden. Tbf exelon threatened to close quad cities the exact same way about 8 years ago. It's probably just posturing. Probably. CommieGIR posted:Unfortunately we're reaching the point climate wise where we really have no alternative: Germany's green revolution is a flop and is largely doubling down on fossil fuels via Nordstream 2, nuclear is the only viable way to get fossils off the grid. Between that and things like closing Indian Point in New York, which is already slated to be replaced by Natural Gas plants, any talk of a non-nuclear baseload is practically bait-and-switch to support fossil fuels. And even if we were to nationalize, that doesn't fix the timeline problems associated with the siting and construction of APWRs. GW plants are a decade-long project from planning to power production. It takes more than negating the fiscal risk to make them happen. Changing regulations to make it easier to site and construct the plants needs to happen, but holy poo poo I don't know who I would trust to be a responsible steward of that endeavor.
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May 9, 2021 15:34
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Pander posted:Tbf exelon threatened to close quad cities the exact same way about 8 years ago. It's probably just posturing. Probably. That’s what everyone figured at first. But when they did that with Quad, their CEO hadn’t just taken a quick retirement to try and avoid being drawn into state official bribery investigations. That’s why it’s all coming down to the wire. ComEd and Exelon were toxic last year for politicians to do anything with or for. And with some of how the PJM market rules changed last year, I do think that nuclear is not as competitive if they can’t get capacity payments.
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May 9, 2021 17:16
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Being competitive in a Climate Emergency is probably the worst idea in the world, and that's part of the problem is continuing to feed the myth that we have time for for-profits to figure out how to compete rather than doing what is right.
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May 9, 2021 17:56
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CommieGIR posted:Being competitive in a Climate Emergency is probably the worst idea in the world, and that's part of the problem is continuing to feed the myth that we have time for for-profits to figure out how to compete rather than doing what is right. Really don't see how we go from not having enough support to even pass a meager GND clear over to nationalizing the grid and generation.
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May 9, 2021 19:58
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‘nationalize it’ is a mantra
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May 9, 2021 20:10
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Biden issues Emergency Waivers after a Cyber Attack knocked The Colonial Pipeline offline with ransomware.quote:The Colonial Pipeline carries 2.5 million barrels a day - 45% of the East Coast's supply of diesel, gasoline and jet fuel.
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May 10, 2021 04:55
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So there are people with the capably of remotely hacking an oil pipeline and shutting it down, but the only ones who do so are just looking to make a quick buck, not trying to disrupt fossil fuel infrastructure to force action on climate change?
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May 10, 2021 14:43
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bawfuls posted:So there are people with the capably of remotely hacking an oil pipeline and shutting it down, but the only ones who do so are just looking to make a quick buck, not trying to disrupt fossil fuel infrastructure to force action on climate change? There's not a whole lot of eco-hackers out there actually from what I've seen, there's usually some sort of profit motive or just malicious intent overall.
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May 10, 2021 14:48
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bawfuls posted:So there are people with the capably of remotely hacking an oil pipeline and shutting it down, but the only ones who do so are just looking to make a quick buck, not trying to disrupt fossil fuel infrastructure to force action on climate change? According to media, operational infrastructure was not affected. Only IT/office stuff. And the environmental effects of this seem pretty bad cause they now have fallen back to using trucks to transport the fuel till the pipeline is operational again. The fuel must flow. Always.
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May 10, 2021 14:58
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GABA ghoul posted:According to media, operational infrastructure was not affected. Only IT/office stuff. They'd be using the pipeline if this was true. They are not. It was very much affected. Most likely their ICS systems are on the same network as their IT/Office stuff. This is a terrible practice but is incredibly common in industrial settings because its cheap and easy. CommieGIR fucked around with this message at 15:49 on May 10, 2021 |
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May 10, 2021 15:27
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CommieGIR posted:They'd be using the pipeline if this was true. They are not. It was very much affected. As an American poster, you never expect: 1. Your own Big Oil to lie to you, repeatedly 2. Your own Big Oil to hide information the public has a right to know 3. Your own Big Oil to spy on your communications Trump's unAmerican Big Oil did all of these. No one should accept this. e: just a bit, and I couldn't quite stick the closing lines 
Grace Baiting fucked around with this message at 17:26 on May 10, 2021 |
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May 10, 2021 17:15
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Grace Baiting posted:As an American poster, you never expect: This is sarcasm, right?
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May 10, 2021 17:17
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https://twitter.com/leyawn/status/1391524279540490240
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May 10, 2021 17:24
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Don't worry, it won't happen again https://twitter.com/ddd1ms/status/1391741147001892869?s=20
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May 10, 2021 17:33
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MomJeans420 posted:Don't worry, it won't happen again https://twitter.com/HowellONeill/status/1391760349708406784
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May 10, 2021 18:16
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https://twitter.com/Bing_Chris/status/1391796025392877571?s=20
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May 10, 2021 19:38
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Good work IT!
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May 10, 2021 19:44
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Grouchio posted:Good work IT! Yeah, pretty good if they caught it before it got that far.
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May 10, 2021 19:51
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The problem is they could turn on the pipeline right now but their billing system is part of the business network, so unless they want to give out free oil, trucks it is.
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May 10, 2021 21:40
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We should start a restoration timeline pool. Im in at May 20th.
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May 10, 2021 22:03
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SpaceCadetBob posted:We should start a restoration timeline pool. June 8th after 5 truck spills
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May 11, 2021 09:18
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Yes!. I mean, no... this does not seem cool to my non-nuclear physicist mind at all.
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May 11, 2021 15:35
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ZombieLenin posted:Yes!. Its really slow, and was not unexpected as water recedes. Part of why they put sensors all over the place inside the chamber.
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May 11, 2021 15:36
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CommieGIR posted:Its really slow, and was not unexpected as water recedes. Part of why they put sensors all over the place inside the chamber. Right, and as the article states there is no real reason to worry yet; however, I never understood that there was a non-zero, and non-negligible chance that an uncontrolled reaction could happen with corium at Chernobyl. That last bit is just a tinsy bit scary. More so probably if you live in Europe, or gods forbid, the Ukraine. Edit Given the amount of water they are still pouring over the remains of the reactors in Fukushima, I probably should have realized that the corium at Chernobyl could still be dangerous above and beyond idiots vacationing in the exclusion zone. ZombieLenin fucked around with this message at 15:41 on May 11, 2021 |
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May 11, 2021 15:37
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ZombieLenin posted:Right, and as the article states there is no real reason to worry yet; however, I never understood that there was a non-zero, and non-negligible chance that an uncontrolled reaction could happen with corium at Chernobyl. Even if a reaction kicks off, for the most part the fuel density is no longer there to really get a massive reaction going, at worst it'll probably mean you have a hot spot, what I'm more curious is how they'll handle the fission products that may result form such. We have a Nuclear Energy thread here: https://forums.somethingawful.com/showthread.php?threadid=3916500&userid=0&perpage=40&pagenumber=6
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May 11, 2021 15:44
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ZombieLenin posted:Yes!. This doesn't make a whole lot of sense: quote:One suggestion for why this is happening is that a new structure placed over the ruined reactor in 2016 is causing the plant to dry out. When uranium or plutonium fuel decay radioactively, they emit neutrons, which can promote a fission reaction if the neutrons are captured by another radioactive nuclei. However, large amounts of water slow these neutrons down, preventing them from being captured. That's the opposite of how it works. The capture cross section is *higher* for thermal neutrons than it is for fast neutrons, which is why water is so frequently used as a moderator in reactor design; in U238 the cross-section is about 2.6 barns for thermal neutrons and only about 1 barn for 10 MeV neutrons. In U235 the cross section is enormously higher for thermal neutrons than for fast neutrons, it's hundreds of barns for thermal neutrons and only a few for fast. If the plant is drying out, then reactivity should decrease due to less moderation, not increase. Water also serves as a neutron reflector, so a way to increase reactivity of your core is just putting it in a tank of water, so that neutrons that would otherwise leave without being captured bounce back and get a second chance to cause a reaction. This is in fact how a number of criticality incidents have taken place: the core is subcritical until a person, essentially a big sack of water, gets too close to it and the additional neutrons that are now entering the core having reflected off the person now cause an excursion. ZombieLenin posted:Right, and as the article states there is no real reason to worry yet; however, I never understood that there was a non-zero, and non-negligible chance that an uncontrolled reaction could happen with corium at Chernobyl. Enh, positive feedback loops are rare in nature. Whatever bit of material is reaching criticality's going to heat up, expand, and make it less likely that the chain reaction will continue. If it gets hot enough to melt then it'll find some lower level, spread out, and the reaction'll stop. This is the kind of thing you're going to see with detectors, it's not going to mean much of anything outside the plant. Phanatic fucked around with this message at 17:01 on May 11, 2021 |
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May 11, 2021 16:58
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Phanatic posted:This doesn't make a whole lot of sense: That was my half assed attempt to try and make a joke about how people, including myself, are attracted to--or only pay attention to--negative news about things like this; however, the reality is--especially from my relatively uneducated position reading articles like this--that this sounds scary as gently caress, and we tend to work ourselves up about the possible negative repercussions of things, even if those things are not very likely to produce the most negative results possible. So it isn't supposed to make sense. quote:hat's the opposite of how it works. The capture cross section is *higher* for thermal neutrons than it is for fast neutrons, which is why water is so frequently used as a moderator in reactor design; in U238 the cross-section is about 2.6 barns for thermal neutrons and only about 1 barn for 10 MeV neutrons. In U235 the cross section is enormously higher for thermal neutrons than for fast neutrons, it's hundreds of barns for thermal neutrons and only a few for fast. If the plant is drying out, then reactivity should decrease due to less moderation, not increase. Water also serves as a neutron reflector, so a way to increase reactivity of your core is just putting it in a tank of water, so that neutrons that would otherwise leave without being captured bounce back and get a second chance to cause a reaction. This is in fact how a number of criticality incidents have taken place: the core is subcritical until a person, essentially a big sack of water, gets too close to it and the additional neutrons that are now entering the core having reflected off the person now cause an excursion. I think he and I read the same article, and I may have interpreted it differently. Yes, the article implied that the water helps to capture free neutrons, but I also got the very distinct impression that another mechanism of action the water getting into the room was providing was keeping the levels of free floating dust made out of fissile material down, and as the water disappears fissile material dust gets kicked up in the room making fission reactions more likely. That being said, I could be totally wrong--it was just my impression. My understanding of the science of nuclear power generation is probably about as good as a layman with no formal physics or chemistry background is going to get--meaning, in the grand scheme of things, I have the nuclear science equivalent of a third grade understanding of how this poo poo actually works. From the way you're discussing it, it seems my interpretation of that article might be wrong as you seem to be saying the more diffuse the materials in that room are, the less likely a nuclear reaction should be--and dust seems pretty drat diffuse.
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May 11, 2021 20:12
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Occurred me to that since water also absorbs neutrons (which is why if you want to build a natural-uranium water-moderated reactor you need to use heavy water, D2O is way less likely to absorb a neutron than H2O is), so it's possible that the presence of water could result in the soaking up of enough neutrons to keep a reaction below critical, and then once the water evaporates you have enough neutrons to set up a chain reaction, but generally the additional activity it brings to the table by being a moderator more than offsets its tendency to absorb neutrons. This could be one of those exceptions to "generally."
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May 11, 2021 21:08
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Phanatic posted:Occurred me to that since water also absorbs neutrons (which is why if you want to build a natural-uranium water-moderated reactor you need to use heavy water, D2O is way less likely to absorb a neutron than H2O is), so it's possible that the presence of water could result in the soaking up of enough neutrons to keep a reaction below critical, and then once the water evaporates you have enough neutrons to set up a chain reaction, but generally the additional activity it brings to the table by being a moderator more than offsets its tendency to absorb neutrons. This could be one of those exceptions to "generally." You also have to assume there's a lot of buried chunks of graphite among the corium that is helping moderate any neutrons generated by leftover fissile materials.
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May 11, 2021 21:11
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Hope this growth rate keeps up https://www.cnbc.com/2021/05/11/renewables-grew-at-fastest-rate-in-two-decades-last-year-iea-says-in-new-report.html
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May 12, 2021 05:37
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edit nm, thing was already mentioned in thread
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May 12, 2021 06:54
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Monaghan posted:Hope this growth rate keeps up Guess what else grew? Fossil fuel usage. The growth rate of renewables is practically inline with increased electricity usage, nullifying most of the growth.
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May 12, 2021 14:45
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