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ROTT tries to make up for using a souped-up Wolf3D engine in 1995 with 101 gimmicks. Even at the time it felt a bit desperate. The Return of the Triad ZDoom mod is basically what the game should have been. The same assets used with real 2.5D geometry makes an enormous difference. It’s pretty short too; just play this instead of the real ROTT.
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May 11, 2021 04:27
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| # ? Jun 7, 2024 16:04 |
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Return of the Triad is indeed very good. The two guys who made it went on to make Amid Evil, pretty great to see them go on to bigger and better things.
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May 11, 2021 08:57
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juggalo baby coffin posted:thats the mp model i picked and also it rules to be a skellington Timesplitters 2 and I think 3 let you do this
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May 11, 2021 10:00
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Convex posted:Timesplitters 2 and I think 3 let you do this Yes, they do. You can also be a gingerbread man, duck, snowman on a genie carpet, or one of about 27 different soldiers. Or a guy who's a literal hand and matchsticks. Anyway, wrt ROTT, I have only nostalgia for it, because that's all that's there. I loved the shareware levels, loved other things in my life at that time (which is what really triggers the nostalgia), but going back to the actual game now, ugh. No. Thanks for all of the neat advancements, ROTT. I respect the hell out of you, now leave me alone forever, thx.
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May 11, 2021 11:54
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I loved ROTT as a kid - not as much as Doom or Heretic, mind, but it was still pretty great. I think I actually beat the entire game which, if I remember correctly, was not the easiest thing to do. But returning to it now is just agony. It’s aged really poorly compared to other FPSes of the time. But, yeah, it never really was a AAA game. I’d definitely say it’s aged better than other B level FPSes from that time. I mean, what’s comparable? WitchHaven? Killing Time? Redneck Rampage? I’d say ROTT is roughly in that grouping AND far better than anything else from that tier.
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May 11, 2021 12:04
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ROTT is the closest we ever came to getting a FPS that played like a Midway game, and I lump it in with most of those: the fact that it sucks doesn't stop it from being loving awesome for about five to ten minutes. If it required quarters to play and had Eugene Jarvis in the credits the effect would be complete.
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May 11, 2021 12:14
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RotT does have a sweet as hell soundtrack doesn't it? That said, literally all I know about it comes from a couple of videos and this comic.
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May 11, 2021 12:20
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i think you could make a good game out of the rott toolset if you removed all the levels and replaced them with way more normal levels that had like, the occasional wacky powerup or map element, instead of the entire game being built out of that stuff
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May 11, 2021 12:26
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New SW3 track deadass slaps. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XX1oG125j_s
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May 11, 2021 12:45
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Weedle posted:i think you could make a good game out of the rott toolset if you removed all the levels and replaced them with way more normal levels that had like, the occasional wacky powerup or map element, instead of the entire game being built out of that stuff Using that engine? I dunno I do wish ECWolf would hurry up with ROTT support (along with Blake Stone) because the extra editing capabilities would be very interesting. I’m revamping my cave generator for Wolf 3D (don’t think I posted about I here) and some of the ROTT stuff would be fun to add.
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May 11, 2021 13:30
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Weedle posted:i think you could make a good game out of the rott toolset if you removed all the levels and replaced them with way more normal levels that had like, the occasional wacky powerup or map element, instead of the entire game being built out of that stuff ROTT without stupid excess ain't ROTT
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May 11, 2021 13:44
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david_a posted:Using that engine? I dunno
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May 11, 2021 13:46
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sethsez posted:ROTT without stupid excess ain't ROTT well yeah it would be good.
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May 11, 2021 13:52
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Weedle posted:well yeah it would be good. ROTT works because it's dumb bullshit, like Total Carnage or NARC. A better game using the same building blocks would just be Wolfenstein with a couple extra things, which we already had a few of and which nobody wanted after Doom. Going full stupid is the only reason anybody played it back then or remembers it now.
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May 11, 2021 14:24
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Do you all consider Quake good? Not the multiplayer mods, just the straight-up single-player campaign? I've never really been able to get into Quake.
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May 11, 2021 14:48
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ExcessBLarg! posted:Do you all consider Quake good? Not the multiplayer mods, just the straight-up single-player campaign? Quake is good, but has slightly odd weapon balancing and gets a bit sadistic in episode 4
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May 11, 2021 14:54
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ExcessBLarg! posted:Do you all consider Quake good? Not the multiplayer mods, just the straight-up single-player campaign? Yes. The action itself is below Doom*, but the atmosphere , sounds, etc compensates for it. *: then again, most FPS are...
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May 11, 2021 14:55
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Weedle posted:i think you could make a good game out of the rott toolset if you removed all the levels and replaced them with way more normal levels that had like, the occasional wacky powerup or map element, instead of the entire game being built out of that stuff So basically Killing Time? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Eo-6JeHs6ZY
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May 11, 2021 15:00
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As somebody whose last experience with ROTT was the 2013 remake that I played to completion several years ago, I was trying to recall my experience with the original as a kid in the 90's. Basically: - Really satisfying explosions and gibs - Seriously, a few of the rocket weapons (I'm primarily remembering the Firebomb, Firewall, and Drunk Missile launchers) felt really powerful. I think the Firebomb launcher might have inadvertently killed me more than any other FPS weapon until Shadow Warrior's nuke or maybe one of Unreal Tournament U4ET's super weapons - The MP40 is basically the only other weapon in the game, and it's not even rare; why would you use the single/akimbo pistol - Where are the monsters and aliens? I'm basically fighting a few soldiers and...R2D2? I'm not sure how accurate this is, since I guess I didn't play far enough to encounter the magic staff and magic monks. But compared to Doom (and Quake/Duke, which I played around the same time I first got my hands on ROTT), I definitely missed being able to lug around a whole arsenal and fight weird monsters instead of the cast of Das Boot.
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May 11, 2021 15:05
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ExcessBLarg! posted:Do you all consider Quake good? Not the multiplayer mods, just the straight-up single-player campaign? It's tight, polished, atmospheric, does a great job of teaching you how to do things before it expects you to do them (which matters considering how much of its movement was brand new), has an arsenal that's consistently satisfying, has a decent range of enemy types... and despite all of this it gets boring for me in about ten minutes. It's the beginning of that era where id games were so stripped-down and polished that any given five minute chunk felt like any other five minute chunk and nothing really had room to stand out, with Quake 2 and Doom 3 ultimately being the biggest offenders.
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May 11, 2021 15:16
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ExcessBLarg! posted:Do you all consider Quake good? Not the multiplayer mods, just the straight-up single-player campaign? Errant Signal just posted a real good video on the 'most imporant' FPS of 1996, being a toss-up between Quake and Duke3D. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vQP4GOoAZeM TLDW: Quake is a technological marvel and laid the groundwork for much to come, but as a game its... okay? Duke3D is no great shakes in the technical department, but was one of the first FPS games with a real sense of place, having a recognizable character in first person, and it was a ton of fun to explore the levels and wacky items and guns. I really agree with his viewpoint.
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May 11, 2021 15:21
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The Japanese game covered at the end of the video looked neat. I was also happy to see some Terra Nova: Strike Force Centauri action in there.
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May 11, 2021 15:23
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I wish Quake had more tech base levels instead of just the first level of each episode. E1M1 sets the tone beautifully, and then it's just...gone. It's kind of like the huge disparity between Doom Episode 1 and the rest, except distilled down into a single level.
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May 11, 2021 15:24
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Volte posted:I wish Quake had more tech base levels instead of just the first level of each episode. E1M1 sets the tone beautifully, and then it's just...gone. It's kind of like the huge disparity between Doom Episode 1 and the rest, except distilled down into a single level. yeah i would have liked to see more of that theme but otherwise i think quake 1 is loving great. i still replay it about once a year, just the vanilla campaign. it still gets me amped up and coming around a corner to find myself face to face with a knight makes me jump every time
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May 11, 2021 15:28
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https://twitter.com/QuakeCon/status/1392117538553794561
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May 11, 2021 15:32
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I have fond memories of the ROTT shareware. It was gleefully stupid, had some nice "Oooh, I've not seen that before" bits (Fog! Translucent and breakable glass! Dynamic lighting!) and lacked most of the really spongy enemies of the game proper. That one bit where you have to push a random pillar to progress in the level can sod off, mind
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May 11, 2021 15:46
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I think Quake still plays well. it comes off as less fun than Doom because it's less colourful and the atmosphere is much more dour. early 3D is also not as pleasant to look at as pixellated sprite art. for the longest time i would have said it was the most influential fps of the 90s, because of what it did with verticality. it could have easily been just exactly doom in a 3D engine, but the way physics interact with the player means it is meaningfully different. real rocket jumping, bunny hopping, all that jazz. that really influenced games to come, and even non-fps games, but especially deathmatch. but with the death of the arena shooter and the rise of the 'realistic' modern shooter, id say Operation: Bodycount is more influential. there's no real player physics interaction, you can't even jump in most of them now except at pre-existing mantle points, you get trapped in annoying canned animations, all the enemies are just guys, the weapons are boring real world guns.
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May 11, 2021 16:03
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I never played the original ROTT, but playing the 2013 remake was an experience I'll never forget. It was a brand new release when I picked it up, but it felt exactly like I was back in my middle school computer lab and playing the demo for some budget title that I'd keep sneaking back to in between our teacher trying to show us how to use formulas in Microsoft Excel. It may be jank as heck and not the greatest from a gameplay perspective, but no other game since has been able to equal the sublime nostalgia-conveying brilliance of Marcel Proust.
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May 11, 2021 17:00
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Rise of the Triad is weird because I definitely played it back in the day over a friend's house (same friend had Doom 95 and I thought it was cool the icon was a cacodemon - I had only played years earlier via DOS) but my memory is so much different from the actual game. I must have it confused with some other FPS I played at the time.
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May 11, 2021 17:06
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I think Quake 1 is the platonic ideal of an old-school FPS, even if I think the game itself doesn't hold up in the same way Doom does. Run, jump, shoot. Monsters are too bullet-spongy, there are a couple truly miserable enemy types, guns don't look or fire as well as Doom's, I recall the level design being a mixed bag and comparatively bite sized, and it really is too drat brown. But the addition of a third dimension while retaining the breakneck speed of its predecessor has meant that its combat model is the perfect foundation to build on. End result being that the best retro-shooters, DUSK, Wrath, AE, all play almost exactly like Quake and are better for it, but they also smooth over a lot of the flaws that game has.
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May 11, 2021 17:12
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I went through Quake for the first time last year and thought it was great still. gently caress the spawns though.
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May 11, 2021 17:45
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Quake as a game is not as good as Doom. The campaign, though? Leagues better. Better than almost anything else id ever shipped, frankly. Like, what's the worst map in there? Wind Tunnels? Pain Maze? Actually I'm picking The Nameless City just for how unrelentingly ugly it is. Ugh.
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May 11, 2021 17:54
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Quake is definitely a no-frills experience, especially coming off stuff like Doom 2 and especially Duke 3D. to me the weapons in quake are conceptually cooler than those in doom, but much uglier in execution. I think the nailguns kick the poo poo out of the chaingun in doom, and the lightning gun is a much neater deathmatch gun than stuff like the plasma rifle. It's missing a real BFG, and the expansion pack weapons are largely nonsense but where quake i think really suffers is the monster variety. you have a far smaller roster, used more sparingly, than in doom 2. I think the quake monsters there are (apart from you, flying fucker) are cool and have more varied behaviour than doom monsters, but the thin roster means that ultimately the variety of encounters you are going to run into is reduced, even with the addition of more elaborate traps and arenas. just off the top of my head, here's the rosters of each game: Doom 2: soldier sergeant chaingunner revenant pain elemental arachnotron imp pinky spectre hell knight baron lost soul cacodemon cyberdemon spider mastermind mancubus archvile so 17 total, only two of which are rarer 'boss types', but they still see extensive use. then for Quake: ogre grunt dog laser grunt flying spitting bastard (scrag?) shambler fiend knight big knight zombie spawn vore fish 13 total, and three of those (grunt, laser grunt, dog) basically only ever appear in the first map of each episode, and one is a bullshit fish, so 9 enemies are the mainstay of the game the other issue is, and it might be a tech limitation, is the lower monster count. it means the monsters there are have to be made more spongy, and there is less granularity in the tuning of an encounter. it also removes the feeling of being a real killing machine, since your super shotgun is less effective at killing a basic enemy (the ogre) than doom's basic shotgun is at killing their basic enemies. I know that the weapons in quake occupy different niches relative to doom (quakes basic shotty is doom's pistol, doom's super shotgun is more similar to quake's rocket launcher), but still, people's expectations now, and back then, would have been set by doom. it's also missing stuff that had become standard at the time, like an inventory of power ups, interactable environments (more on that in a sec), something approaching a story. Hexen had even introduced the idea of a hub with repeat visits to various levels to see how the environment is changed by your actions (although its implementation was definitely flawed). the foundation that doom had laid down had been built up on in all these crazy, cool directions, but then quake was just this new foundation off by itself. i think one of the few non-tech innovations of quake, and i believe this was carmack's idea, was not having an 'interact' button. everything in quake is triggered by being shot or by contact with the player's body. carmack didn't like the abstraction of having a use key, he felt it broke immersion, but I think the consensus since then has been that it's an acceptable break from immersion to have a use button. It is far more jarring to have your character mash his face into a button to press it. it also carried over, weirdly, to quake 2, where to use a computer you... slide the keyboard back into its desk tray. it's just weird, and I think it was a rare mistep for early id. i love quake, and I believe i've written glowingly about it in long form in this thread before. I think it has an admirable purity, and the core gameplay is very tight, and if i had to pick whether to play doom 1, doom 2, or quake, i would pick quake every time. but i've played, and still play, far more doom mods and level sets than I do quake. ironically considering their name, i think quake is the start of id losing their identity, and becoming a tech company.
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May 11, 2021 17:56
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I never really liked Quake or Quake II, even though it was clear they were industry-leading. Both are boring and samey all the way through. The sounds in Quake 1 in particular were annoying even then. Quake just doesn't have the character or vivid imagination of Doom.
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May 11, 2021 17:58
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ROTT was the first multiplayer I ever played and it was loving hilariously fun I preferred it to doom at the time since the homing action of the missiles meant that playing against my friends who weren't as good as me was a good time versus doom where the kill counts would be so lopsided as to be fun for nobody
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May 11, 2021 18:03
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Tim Thomas posted:ROTT was the first multiplayer I ever played and it was loving hilariously fun The entire 90's multiplayer FPS style, where most of the game is memorizing a route around the map to pick up the good items, is a thing that I'm glad is mostly dead.
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May 11, 2021 18:10
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Quake's monster counts are definitely a tech limitation, not only does each monster have a significant render cost but their AI and behaviors were interpreted QuakeC bytecode instead of compiled native code. Big ask for a 100Mhz Pentium without a GPU
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May 11, 2021 18:25
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Sodomy Hussein posted:The entire 90's multiplayer FPS style, where most of the game is memorizing a route around the map to pick up the good items, is a thing that I'm glad is mostly dead. unfortunately its mostly been replaced by games where the pro strat is to find spots where you can headglitch so you can shoot people through the terrain and they can't shoot you back.
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May 11, 2021 18:31
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juggalo baby coffin posted:unfortunately its mostly been replaced by games where the pro strat is to find spots where you can headglitch so you can shoot people through the terrain and they can't shoot you back. Yeah, the former has its problems but it makes for more dynamic gameplay than just camping in positions.
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May 11, 2021 19:03
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Vakal posted:So basically Killing Time? I need to pick that up at some point, maybe even soon since it's on sale on GOG right now.
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May 11, 2021 19:51
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