|
I love how "class" and "accent" are completely indistinguishable in normal island politics E: the square root of 72 is irriational and has an infinite number of decimals. jiggerypokery fucked around with this message at 15:42 on May 11, 2021 |
#
?
May 11, 2021 15:37
|
|
|
|
| # ? May 24, 2024 03:39 |
|
|
Borrovan posted:Rayner was the Momentum candidate & immediately sold us out & threw her lot in with Keith & the hard right after getting elected. She's been completely loyal to Keith as far as I can tell. imo this was probably all the hard right around him whispering in his ear that he needs to go even more right wing & cut off anyone left-seeming Rayner thinks that Academies can be a good thing for education and said as much as Corbyn's shadow education secretary iirc, so I'm less inclined to trust her than you. feedmegin posted:I thought Dawn Butler was the lefty for deputy? I voted for her, anyway. Dawn wasn't formally affiliated with the left factions in Labour so despite having good politics mostly, Momentum didn't endorse her at all despite it being a ranked vote election. It's factionalism all the way down!
|
|
#
?
May 11, 2021 15:38
|
|
|
Guavanaut posted:Fellas, is it gay to labor for others' profit? I believe that is called 'gay for pay'
|
|
#
?
May 11, 2021 15:38
|
|
|
OwlFancier posted:I was under the impression that a challenge necessitated a specific challenger not that it triggered a new leadership election with normal nomination rules? I assumed that once a leadership challenge was launched, it triggered an election and you could then field more candidates based on the usual rules for joining the election. I could be wrong but I don't think it's a special type of election just because it started from a challenge rather than a vacancy.
|
|
#
?
May 11, 2021 15:39
|
|
|
The thing about Rayner is that she looks like a left compromise to people on the right. She's said vaguely lefty things and has the working class shtick. They'll give her a chance, screech at her when she does anything even vaguely left progressive, until she caves and goes full right wing. The membership will reject her for melting, at which point the Labour right will say 'well we tried compromising, those people are unreasonable' and announce their new candidate, the moustachioed Mr Rialb.
|
|
#
?
May 11, 2021 15:40
|
|
|
jabby posted:I assumed that once a leadership challenge was launched, it triggered an election and you could then field more candidates based on the usual rules for joining the election. I could be wrong but I don't think it's a special type of election just because it started from a challenge rather than a vacancy. There is a higher bar to get on the ballot in a challenge, you need more MPs behind you. Can't ever the numbers.
|
|
#
?
May 11, 2021 15:48
|
|
|
Get ready for lessons to be learned! https://twitter.com/BethRigby/status/1392128162105004035?s=19
|
|
#
?
May 11, 2021 15:48
|
|
|
Borrovan posted:idk what you mean by mainline IRA but the Real IRA didn't exist in 1988, when whichever-IRA blew up a school bus (looks to be the Provos according to this). The IRA weren't a unified organisation even at their height - partly for security, partly for practicality they were multiple very different groups loosely affiliated under a single banner. These groups were often sharply divided on ideological grounds too - even after the OIRA/PIRA split, some PIRA brigades, particularly in and around Belfast, very much saw themselves as part of a wider Marxist anti-Imperialist movement along with groups like the PLO, while others, especially those in the countryside/close to the border, saw the struggle along sharper sectarian or nationalist lines - at the most extreme end even rejecting involvement in RoI politics because the Republic accepted the existence of NI rather than claiming the entire island. RIRA and CIRA split out from those latter groups, who were always much more keen to attack civilian populations than the more political groups - one prevalent rumour at the time was that the "spectaculars" campaign of the 90s was the PIRA leadership deliberately using up their large stockpiles of explosives to keep them out of the hands of the splinter groups and avoid more Omagh and Warrington-type attacks, which they considered to be unhelpful to the goal of a political settlement.
|
|
#
?
May 11, 2021 15:51
|
|
|
it'll be a shame to still not have had a (not acting) female Labour leader but Burnham seems the better of the two - at least a weathervane responds to the climate, rather than selling out for the sheer hell of it
|
|
#
?
May 11, 2021 15:53
|
|
|
stev posted:Get ready for lessons to be learned! I started doing lessons learned for software releases at my workplace and everyone was shocked, shocked, when I brought them back up the following year. Y'see, lessons learned should be filed away and never spoken of again.
|
|
#
?
May 11, 2021 15:57
|
|
|
stev posted:Get ready for lessons to be learned! There's a relief, this will definitely help us deal with the next massive once in a century pandemic Especially the parts that insist the government is definiyely not to blame
|
|
#
?
May 11, 2021 15:59
|
|
|
jabby posted:The main thing that annoys me is that while the soft left have Rayner and Burnham to choose from there's nobody from the proper left that seems like a leader in waiting. Or even being groomed for the job. And that lack of planning is why RLB crashed and burned. Burgon is making some noises but I don't see him getting the gig. Sultana is too young/inexperienced/ethnic/female. Trickett also seems keen and fits the "anonymous backbencher for decades" Corbyn mould but eeehhhh. Clive Lewis still feels the most realistic shot right now. SCG member, journalism and TA background for "real world" credibility and connections, vocal supporter of working with other parties to oust the Tories and bring in PR which is of debatable merit but certainly a popular idea. Represents a non-London constituency.
|
|
#
?
May 11, 2021 15:59
|
|
|
forkboy84 posted:There's a relief, this will definitely help us deal with the next massive once in a century pandemic Climate change says the next one will likely show up considerably sooner than that.
|
|
#
?
May 11, 2021 15:59
|
|
|
My only advice for people getting jabs is the "appointments" aren't really that. You just roll into a room and they jab you, give you a bit of paper then send you off. I barely had enough time to take my shirt off. It took about 60-90 secs and I didn't even sit down. Also make sure to relax your whole arm including the shoulder, let it hang as they get you right in the muscle. Three days later my shoulder is fine but my neck on that side is still stiff.
|
|
#
?
May 11, 2021 16:02
|
|
|
Zalakwe posted:There is a higher bar to get on the ballot in a challenge, you need more MPs behind you. Can't ever the numbers. I thought it was a higher bar to LAUNCH a challenge (40 MPs roughly I think) but once a challenge is launched it behaves like a standard leadership election where the requirement to get on the ballot is lower (about 20 MPs?). That prevents a small faction from triggering an election but still means the election is open to a broad range of candidates.
|
|
#
?
May 11, 2021 16:03
|
|
|
Burnham is a mayor and not an MP so can't be leader (well, I think that technically he can but it's extremely unlikely the PLP would go for it). And he literally just won an election less than a week ago so it would look really bad if he quit and got himself installed in a safe seat or something. His leadership ambitions are very real, but more long term. Maybe if Keith is still leader at the next election (questionable) and then he loses (likely) he'll try it then.
|
|
#
?
May 11, 2021 16:03
|
|
|
jabby posted:I thought it was a higher bar to LAUNCH a challenge (40 MPs roughly I think) but once a challenge is launched it behaves like a standard leadership election where the requirement to get on the ballot is lower (about 20 MPs?). That prevents a small faction from triggering an election but still means the election is open to a broad range of candidates. I think if it's a challenge all candidates need 40 nominations.
|
|
#
?
May 11, 2021 16:04
|
|
|
Jippa posted:My only advice for people getting jabs is the "appointments" aren't really that. You just roll into a room and they jab you, give you a bit of paper then send you off. I barely had enough time to take my shirt off. It took about 60-90 secs and I didn't even sit down. This very much depends on the centre (and how busy they are). Pharmacists and community-centre places will generally let you stroll in whenever, but the big ones in places like convention centres are much more regimented, and especially at busy times will tell you to piss off if you're 5 minutes either side of your appointed time. (Source: Have been both the person more or less dragging someone from the door into a chair to get jabbed and the person telling someone they were out of luck because they were ten minutes late and they'd have to re-book because the building was already at capacity with the 20 other people who'd come in in the meantime)
|
|
#
?
May 11, 2021 16:09
|
|
|
Beefeater1980 posted:While I agree that violence isn’t always and everywhere something that has to be condemned, this is an, uh, interesting take on the early modern period. Where are the borders of the Middle East in their narrative? The left could actually learn a lot from the right when it comes to narratives, imo.
|
|
#
?
May 11, 2021 16:14
|
|
|
Comrade Fakename posted:I think if it's a challenge all candidates need 40 nominations. Looks like you're right. That does make it harder for the Left, especially since leaders could simply refuse to resign and invite people to challenge them instead.
|
|
#
?
May 11, 2021 16:16
|
|
|
in the marketplace of ideas, yes
|
|
#
?
May 11, 2021 16:19
|
|
|
Borrovan posted:It's a narrative, no need for detail. Like, if I were a jihadist Ben Shapiro, I'd probably just start ranting about crusades & the forever-war, that's a strong enough factual basis that people who already want to believe me would be saying "lol look at this other rube with his woke geography & snowflake knowing-what-the-early-modern-period-is-without-looking-it-up, he got DESTROYED with FACTS and LOGIC". Narratives are far more powerful than fact, which is interesting in counter-terror discourse because whilst Western governments are excellent at spinning narratives to their own peoples, the same narratives don't work elsewhere, people don't tend to believe "actually we are just bombing you for your own good, it's all about freedom & democracy which is only a Western thing btw nobody else has those values". The USA used to be very good at just doing different narratives all over the shop, but the internet has made that a lot harder. Um, no, I think you'll find what we actually have to do is wonkishly drill down into the narratives spun by the right, amplifying them massively just so we can say "Actually some brown people don't commit crimes, rather than what he claimed 2 hours into this video explaining how the Musselman is a fundamentally animalistic and destructive creature"
|
|
#
?
May 11, 2021 16:22
|
|
|
Seems a bad idea for a Labour MP to have a column in a newspaper edited by Samantha Cameron's sister and George Osborne "No, I think what the leader of the Labour party meant to say was Gordon Brown spent all the poonds" Gort fucked around with this message at 16:26 on May 11, 2021 |
|
#
?
May 11, 2021 16:23
|
|
|
Borrovan posted:The left could actually learn a lot from the right when it comes to narratives, imo. God yes. The amount of times I’ve tried to explain this to groups of ideologically sound but politically naive leftists is unreal, and it’s usually met with ‘that sounds a bit capitalist, I think we should just explain our ideas and put them into practice so people can see them work.’ People don’t work that way! They aren’t rational! Constructing a good story that makes sense to and engages people is so essential and the left isn’t just bad at it - half the time it rejects the necessity of it.
|
|
#
?
May 11, 2021 16:35
|
|
|
Jakabite posted:God yes. The amount of times I’ve tried to explain this to groups of ideologically sound but politically naive leftists is unreal, and it’s usually met with ‘that sounds a bit capitalist, I think we should just explain our ideas and put them into practice so people can see them work.’ People don’t work that way! They aren’t rational! Constructing a good story that makes sense to and engages people is so essential and the left isn’t just bad at it - half the time it rejects the necessity of it. This campaign ad from 2019 was cringe central but such a huge step above Labour's usual attempts at getting across these concepts. https://youtu.be/2jCfHAW9izw
|
|
#
?
May 11, 2021 16:51
|
|
|
Jakabite posted:God yes. The amount of times I’ve tried to explain this to groups of ideologically sound but politically naive leftists is unreal, and it’s usually met with ‘that sounds a bit capitalist, I think we should just explain our ideas and put them into practice so people can see them work.’ People don’t work that way! They aren’t rational! Constructing a good story that makes sense to and engages people is so essential and the left isn’t just bad at it - half the time it rejects the necessity of it.
|
|
#
?
May 11, 2021 16:55
|
|
|
Jippa posted:
The one time I didn't do this (due to thoughtlessly resting my arm on the table next to me in such a way that my deltoid was tensed) was also the one time I ever passed out from an injection, so I thoroughly endorse this message.
|
|
#
?
May 11, 2021 16:56
|
|
|
I think I'd sooner turn into dust and blow away than want Burnham as leader. Not for any rational reason, the idea of it just makes me so, so tired
|
|
#
?
May 11, 2021 17:07
|
|
|
Yeah, I think the common theme is that leftists have a tendency to have faith in the rightness of their ideas to the point that they believe that if others are just exposed to their ideas they will, naturally, see that rightness. I and I’m sure many others fell into that trap when Corbyn was elected - the public were finally going to be properly exposed to socialist ideas, and when that happens their correctness will be self-evident! Realistically although we are right, from average Joe’s perspective we aren’t any more right than anyone else and will still have to engage in all the same techniques and tactics to win them over.
|
|
#
?
May 11, 2021 17:07
|
|
|
Jakabite posted:Yeah, I think the common theme is that leftists have a tendency to have faith in the rightness of their ideas to the point that they believe that if others are just exposed to their ideas they will, naturally, see that rightness. I and I’m sure many others fell into that trap when Corbyn was elected - the public were finally going to be properly exposed to socialist ideas, and when that happens their correctness will be self-evident! Realistically although we are right, from average Joe’s perspective we aren’t any more right than anyone else and will still have to engage in all the same techniques and tactics to win them over. Yeah, interestingly I think this might also be the blairites delusion too lol
|
|
#
?
May 11, 2021 17:10
|
|
|
Jakabite posted:Yeah, I think the common theme is that leftists have a tendency to have faith in the rightness of their ideas to the point that they believe that if others are just exposed to their ideas they will, naturally, see that rightness. I and I’m sure many others fell into that trap when Corbyn was elected - the public were finally going to be properly exposed to socialist ideas, and when that happens their correctness will be self-evident! Realistically although we are right, from average Joe’s perspective we aren’t any more right than anyone else and will still have to engage in all the same techniques and tactics to win them over. Problem is that "techniques and tactics" means "be approved of by Rupert Murdoch" which is incompatible with worthwhile ideas
|
|
#
?
May 11, 2021 17:12
|
|
|
Communist Thoughts posted:Yeah, interestingly I think this might also be the blairites delusion too lol Blairites go one step further and believe that everyone has already been exposed to them, absolutely loves them, and are just waiting for Him to return.
|
|
#
?
May 11, 2021 17:12
|
|
|
Friend of mine reckons Boris is trying to get rid of the FTPA - any truth to this?
|
|
#
?
May 11, 2021 17:13
|
|
|
Gort posted:Seems a bad idea for a Labour MP to have a column in a newspaper edited by Samantha Cameron's sister and George Osborne I thought Osborne gave up on that? Not that it makes that much of a difference.
|
|
#
?
May 11, 2021 17:17
|
|
|
Private Speech posted:I thought Osborne gave up on that? He moved from editor to editor-in-chief
|
|
#
?
May 11, 2021 17:18
|
|
|
Gort posted:Problem is that "techniques and tactics" means "be approved of by Rupert Murdoch" which is incompatible with worthwhile ideas No see this is the mistake - the most common and well-trodden route is closed so the left tends to the throw the baby out with the bath water: either give up your principles or keep them and fail to engage in any sort of spin/politicking/narrative building/any of the techniques needed to create a compelling political movement that people will join. Policies and ideas do not create a compelling movement. Boris is an intellectually vapid void as have the Tories been for their entire time in power - nothing about austerity made sense or was beneficial. But they created a very strong narrative that pulled people in - tightening the belt for the good of us all, making sure people get what they deserve. They even had a good villain in the previous Labour government. Corbyn managed this to an extent in 2017 with good policies. The 2019 campaign’s Brexit policy was good imo but it was impossible to build a compelling narrative around, so it failed miserably. Get your policies in order then realise that they don’t mean poo poo if you can’t build a story to fit them that engages people. Being right does not loving matter one iota if you can’t do the rest too, and the left (not just Labour but the left generally) isn’t just bad at it but often actively rejects the necessity.
|
|
#
?
May 11, 2021 17:18
|
|
|
Jakabite posted:Yeah, I think the common theme is that leftists have a tendency to have faith in the rightness of their ideas to the point that they believe that if others are just exposed to their ideas they will, naturally, see that rightness. I and I’m sure many others fell into that trap when Corbyn was elected - the public were finally going to be properly exposed to socialist ideas, and when that happens their correctness will be self-evident! Realistically although we are right, from average Joe’s perspective we aren’t any more right than anyone else and will still have to engage in all the same techniques and tactics to win them over. What about the last five years tells you the public don't agree with leftist ideas? The tories are outflanking Labour from the left for a reason. Right-wing labour are spectacularily imploding for a reason. The policies of the parliamentary left have universal appeal and gave Labour their best election turnout in two decades. The current spat between Unite and Labour HQ is that Unite ran policy polls and found out voters in Hartlepool were very keen on Corbyn era policies and would reject a labour party that wasn't interested. Then this actually happened, so Labour and the media have gone radio silent on this in case anyone draws the correct conclusions. Howard Beckett shouting about it on twitter isn't going to change this, as funny as it is. The issue is that the narrative is outside our control - people that meet activists trust them, apolitical types who hear "we should have hospitals and not force poverty on people" want to vote for that person. The actual narrative, though, is dictated by a few very small cliques based in London that are completely enmeshed with westminster and too insecure to accept they're inbred scum who've lived on a diet of horseshit since the 90s, so resorted to spending years accusing the parliamentary left of everything under the sun until antisemitism stuck. I don't know any leftist activists that think narratives are irrelevant, but everyone I've spoken to about how we go about breaking through with messaging just ignores it day to day, because it's not within their power to alter. What's the option? SWP newspaper campaigns but not run by rapists? Momentum TV but harder? Unite TV?
|
|
#
?
May 11, 2021 17:20
|
|
|
The DPRK posted:Friend of mine reckons Boris is trying to get rid of the FTPA - any truth to this? Sounds like your mate has the secret inside knowledge of looking at the news because scrapping the FTPA was in the Queen's Speech.
|
|
#
?
May 11, 2021 17:27
|
|
|
Spangly A posted:What about the last five years tells you the public don't agree with leftist ideas? The tories are outflanking Labour from the left for a reason. Right-wing labour are spectacularily imploding for a reason. The policies of the parliamentary left have universal appeal and gave Labour their best election turnout in two decades. The current spat between Unite and Labour HQ is that Unite ran policy polls and found out voters in Hartlepool were very keen on Corbyn era policies and would reject a labour party that wasn't interested. Then this actually happened, so Labour and the media have gone radio silent on this in case anyone draws the correct conclusions. Howard Beckett shouting about it on twitter isn't going to change this, as funny as it is. I don’t know but this sounds like defeatist bollocks to me. If you can’t change the narrative or build your own you will not win. Period. Waaaa it’s too hard and it’s all in the hands of the media is an excuse because the left can’t be arsed to have some original ideas or try anything new. Who cares if the ideas poll well? They still lost. Ideas don’t exist in a vacuum and ignoring that fact because it’s hard to deal with or would force a radical change of tack is why we live in an ever worsening neoliberal hellscape. If you can’t even change minds with policies that people like then you have to pull your loving finger out and work out why that is - the right manage to sell harmful dog poo poo, so we need to work out how to sell good stuff. ‘The right controls the main organs of media’ might be true but it just sounds like feeble whining. Find another way. Do real stuff. Stop focusing on the parliamentary game. Find a way to build a narrative or lose, it’s as simple as that. N.B: I’m not principally talking about Labour here as the vast majority of my politics happens outside the parliamentary system.
|
|
#
?
May 11, 2021 17:34
|
|
|
|
| # ? May 24, 2024 03:39 |
|
|
Then what is your advice? What method is there for talking to people? Because this might be stuff we can agree on, but acknowledging that "I alone cannot do this and I don't think there is anyone coming to save us" isn't defeatist if it's an accurate read of a situation.
|
|
#
?
May 11, 2021 17:39
|
|
