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Konstantin posted:I think it is a Good Thing that Trump wasn't able to fire all lower level federal employees and replace them with MAGA chuds. It is possible that we will have a Republican President at some point in the future, and they shouldn't be able to fire employees hired by the Biden administration. In order to maintain this precedent, we have to accept that Trump has caused lasting damage, and that it is not possible to undo all of it, just like it wasn't possible for Trump to undo all of Obama's accomplishments. In this very particular case of 17 Trump-hired immigration judges, there are alternatives to straight up firing them such as clearing the court calendar, DOJ writing new rules for how to handle immigration cases, etc. GreyjoyBastard pointed out here: https://forums.somethingawful.com/showthread.php?threadid=3848439&userid=0&perpage=40&pagenumber=23#post514601002 Or, y'know, a massive overhaul of the immigration and refugee system that transitions it from deterrence and enforcement to humanitarian work where the current immigration court system can be rebuilt from scratch to match the new demands of a system focused largely on settling refugees.
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May 10, 2021 02:39
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Herstory Begins Now posted:oh hey it's bugman writing dumb posts about things without knowing anything about them again! Oh cool, thank you for the info. Just as a quick thing though, how did Trump attempt to enforce these? It seems to have mainly been the equivalent of pinkie swears? Direct/ indirect patronage networks don't usually start with trying to pretend to be a mob boss but with "I promise" at the end instead of getting out a knife. Owlspiracy posted:if you legitimately believe this you should start a thread about practical steps for biden to start rounding up and jailing republican voters because you have just described a scenario in which anything short of that will lead to a fascist dictatorship. Why voters? Most GOP voters will passively (or enthusiastically) go along with it because that's what most people will do when authoritarianism comes knocking. It's what pretty much everyone has to do in most instances. You could try and make sure the GOP are broken as a political force, one of the best ways to do that would be to stop people appointed by them being present in any level of civil service or governance. Can understand that may be a bridge too far and heck, I could be wrong. But it doesn't seem completely outside the realm of the possible. Josef bugman fucked around with this message at 02:44 on May 10, 2021 |
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May 10, 2021 02:42
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firing federal employees hired by trump does not help Biden win elections, while actively jailing Republicans voters (so they can’t vote, because they’re in jail) would help a lot. you have told me that it is a moral imperative that Biden wins re-election because if he loses democracy will end in the US. If you believe this why are you focusing on worthless half measures? And if you do believe this you should start a thread so you can spread this truth to others. you’re seemingly big on moral imperatives so I’m confused why you haven’t stepped up here - it seems like you’re being negligent.
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May 10, 2021 02:45
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Josef bugman posted:Oh cool, thank you for the info. Just as a quick thing though, how did Trump attempt to enforce these? It seems to have mainly been the equivalent of pinkie swears? Direct/ indirect patronage networks don't usually start with trying to pretend to be a mob boss but with "I promise" at the end instead of getting out a knife. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_people_granted_executive_clemency_by_Donald_Trump vs. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Michael_Cohen_(lawyer) edit: and of course Trump can always, y'know, force you to resign if you're insufficiently loyal. See: https://www.washingtonpost.com/worl...ca6b_story.html Fritz the Horse fucked around with this message at 02:48 on May 10, 2021 |
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May 10, 2021 02:45
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Fritz the Horse posted:In this very particular case of 17 Trump-hired immigration judges, there are alternatives to straight up firing them such as clearing the court calendar, DOJ writing new rules for how to handle immigration cases, etc. GreyjoyBastard pointed out here: https://forums.somethingawful.com/showthread.php?threadid=3848439&userid=0&perpage=40&pagenumber=23#post514601002 I forget if it was from that article, but another thing I read mentioned the option of reassigning "bad" judges to slam-dunk cases / cases Garland (or whichever Garland subordinate handles this stuff) doesn't really care about or want mercy for, eg convicts of violent crime and such. whether we should deport those convicts is a separate question but practically speaking i don't think even president bernard sanders would change that Hire a shitload of immigration judges - way more than the 100 Biden suggested in whatever bill - from good backgrounds, shuffle the Deadly Seventeen and the other hundreds of trump hires et al to cases where Good Judges would probably rule about the same way. same sort of thing as reassigning ICE officials to carefully inventorying corn exports in the Des Moines Kate Mulgrew International Airport Goatse James Bond fucked around with this message at 02:53 on May 10, 2021 |
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May 10, 2021 02:48
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Bel Shazar posted:That norm assumes two parties generally working towards the betterment of the country, even when they disagree as to what that betterment may be. Your argument would be stronger if the administration stacking the deck wasn't a modern GOP administration. No, it doesn't. There is no benefit in destroying the civil service because you read an article in the Hill. By doing this you inflict more damage than Trump had accomplished in his term.
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May 10, 2021 02:48
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Fritz the Horse posted:https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_people_granted_executive_clemency_by_Donald_Trump See this is why I'd say it's not really a proper attempt at starting an authoritarian regime, as lovely and awful as it was. If Trump had been serious Cohen would have been "will no-one rid me of this turbulent Priest"'ed before anything came out. Though that is a good point. Owlspiracy posted:firing federal employees hired by trump does not help Biden win elections, while actively jailing Republicans voters (so they can’t vote, because they’re in jail) would help a lot. you have told me that it is a moral imperative that Biden wins re-election because if he loses democracy will end in the US. If you believe this why are you focusing on worthless half measures? And if you do believe this you should start a thread so you can spread this truth to others. you’re seemingly big on moral imperatives so I’m confused why you haven’t stepped up here - it seems like you’re being negligent. Surely it could? It shows that there is no continuity between yourself and your predecessor. Now this might be sad for those who voted for your predecessor, but it does help to motivate your base. I would also say that is it more ethical and cheaper to deny a position of legitimacy towards the GOP via removing their influence in as many ways as possible. You could very well argue that I am not extreme enough and we should be calling for the immediate imprisonment of several million people. However I think that it is easier to target (and better morally) to instead focus on preventing the richer people running the show having any influence. If you believe otherwise I'd love to hear more though! Discendo Vox posted:No, it doesn't. There is no benefit in destroying the civil service because you read an article in the Hill. By doing this you inflict more damage than Trump had accomplished in his term. How is preventing these particular people from fulfilling a hired contract "destroying the civil service". It could very well lead to the destruction of the civil service, of course.
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May 10, 2021 02:54
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Josef bugman posted:Surely it could? It shows that there is no continuity between yourself and your predecessor. Now this might be sad for those who voted for your predecessor, but it does help to motivate your base. why is it morally better to pursue ineffective half measures (i do not believe there is a single swing state voter who would not vote for biden unless he removes these judges, while i believe there are many never trump republican biden supporters who would see biden removing judges as a bridge too far) instead of immediately pursuing a better, more effective solution. also, in your framing, you see tens of millions of republican voters as being complicit proto-fascists: surely imprisoning them would be a net good for our society because they would no longer be free to influence others and spread their dangerous ideology. - which is again, a far more effective way to "remove their influence" than firing judges. further, the best way for joe biden to show that he is not under the influence of rich people is to imprison those rich people, not fire judges. if you truly believe this, and you follow the stringent absolutist kantian moral code you seem to, i would expect you to start a thread. again, you have essentially told me a comet is heading towards the earth and the only way we can save the planet is by sending a crew of miners to land on the comet and blow it up. and instead of finding, training and sending those miners, you're focusing on changing paint colors on the drilling rig. you should be out there screaming from the roof tops! Owlspiracy fucked around with this message at 03:01 on May 10, 2021 |
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May 10, 2021 02:58
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Josef bugman posted:How is preventing these particular people from fulfilling a hired contract "destroying the civil service". It could very well lead to the destruction of the civil service, of course. This has already been explained to you.
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May 10, 2021 02:59
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Per GJB's request for review by someone uninvolved in the current discussion, I am going to remind everyone that while we get this is an extremely contentious and sensitive topic, it does not give you a license to post like a toxic shithead if someone disagrees with you. Before you respond, ask yourself... -Is my post meaningfully contributing to the discussion at large? -Am I posting in good faith? -Am I meeting effort with effort? If the answer to any of those questions is anything but a resounding yes, then reconsider posting otherwise prepare to get booted from the thread. If not, have at it. Thanks.
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May 10, 2021 03:06
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Owlspiracy posted:why is it morally better to pursue ineffective half measures (i do not believe there is a single swing state voter who would not vote for biden unless he removes these judges, while i believe there are many never trump republican biden supporters who would see biden removing judges as a bridge too far) instead of immediately pursuing a better, more effective solution. also, in your framing, you see tens of millions of republican voters as being complicit proto-fascists: surely imprisoning them would be a net good for our society because they would no longer be free to influence others and spread their dangerous ideology. - which is again, a far more effective way to "remove their influence" than firing judges. further, the best way for joe biden to show that he is not under the influence of rich people is to imprison those rich people, not fire judges. Mass imprisonment of people who vote republican is going to be hard for a number of purely practical problems (secret ballots presumably being the top one). However let's focus on moral ones. For starters I don't believe that mass imprisonment is a moral thing to do even when things are at their worst. I do see them as complicit in proto-fascism yes. But far far less so than the people actually in charge of things and in government within that same party. Do you disagree? Do you find them more responsible? Is that why they should be mass arrested? Again, several things can be done at once. Any blow that shows the GOP can have no further influence on governance helps to weaken the hold that the GOP has on the political conversation. Lots of people want to be in government in some way and if they think they may not get to be part of it if they associate with GOP representatives, then they will stop. I mean I don't quite know where you are getting Kant from here but okay! I mean I could. It'd cause people to have the same response as we see now, dismissal because "you are being testerical". To be fair they could very well be right. But advocating for some things and not others doesn't mean I am "doing nothing". Discendo Vox posted:This has already been explained to you. I still don't understand but that is on me. Thanks for the reply and sorry to bother you! Also it is 3 am, I really do have to head to bed. It has been nice chatting, and I hope I haven't been daft. Thank you very much! Josef bugman fucked around with this message at 03:17 on May 10, 2021 |
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May 10, 2021 03:14
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The AP has a new story out about the horrifying conditions in the HHS camps:quote:The Biden administration is holding tens of thousands of asylum-seeking children in an opaque network of some 200 facilities that The Associated Press has learned spans two dozen states and includes five shelters with more than 1,000 children packed inside.
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May 11, 2021 20:01
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Whoops, missed this bit:quote:Some of the facilities holding children these days are run by contractors already facing lawsuits claiming that children were physically and sexually abused in their shelters under the Trump administration, while others are new companies with little or no experience working with migrant children. Collectively, the emergency facilities can accommodate nearly 18,000 children, according to data the agency provided earlier this month.
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May 11, 2021 20:03
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Just to be clear this article isn't about the conditions in the HHS facilities, the AP is reporting that a source has revealed the numbers on how many children are in mass facilities and reporting on lack of proper oversight on these facilities, as well as reporting on previous misconduct by some of the contractor's running facilities. This is followed up by speculation by some immigration advocates based on previous issues witnessed at mass holding facilities. There is literally no primary source material in this article about conditions inside HHS facilities, saying it's a news story about "the horrifying conditions inside the camps" is an utter and complete lie. We already knew that they were rushing facilities up and going without the full background checks, that issue has been reported on for months as part of what they were trying to do to stand-up more HHS facilities to get the children out of CBP custody. We even had stories about them trying to assign people from NASA to HHS temporarily because they had the requisite background investigations already completed.
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May 11, 2021 20:28
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I dunno; it might be me but I'd say it's pretty horrifying to not conduct background checks, to not have agencies vetted or overseen, and denying children access to healthcare & education. Kids having to to piss & crap in plastic bags definitely is horrifying. It's going to be hard finding "primary" sources when media aren't allowed in the concentration camps, and the handful of volunteers who have come forward to tell the truth about the concentration camps have been summarily fired. I trust the AP's reporting, especially about the concentration camps, since they've been following the story over the last few months. Were you as cavalier about the concentration camps when Trump was running them as you are about Biden running them?
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May 11, 2021 22:23
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Willa Rogers posted:I dunno; it might be me but I'd say it's pretty horrifying to not conduct background checks, to not have agencies vetted or overseen, and denying children access to healthcare & education. Kids having to to piss & crap in plastic bags definitely is horrifying. You are right to complain lack of access to the facilities, but regarding lack of vetting or oversight, it's probably due to lack of ability to source those services due to insanely high demand, rather than due to a mix of incompetence, negligence or malice. It seems fairly obvious that the Biden administration is working like hell to get a handle on the crisis (and succeeding in some ways and failing in others), whereas the Trump administration not only didn't care, but also thought that treating refugees cruelly would discourage more from coming. Once again you'll find that there isn't a single person here who thinks that this administration is doing a great job or anything like that, so I'm not sure why you're constantly trying to stir that pot.
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May 11, 2021 22:31
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If “insanely high demand” is causing a backlog perhaps they can invest more resources into clearing said backlog? It’s not like this has been a secret problem they just found out about last month.
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May 11, 2021 22:37
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Thorn Wishes Talon posted:You are right to complain lack of access to the facilities, but regarding lack of vetting or oversight, it's probably due to lack of ability to source those services due to insanely high demand, rather than due to a mix of incompetence, negligence or malice. It seems fairly obvious that the Biden administration is working like hell to get a handle on the crisis (and succeeding in some ways and failing in others), whereas the Trump administration not only didn't care, but also thought that treating refugees cruelly would discourage more from coming. why are you assuming that it's 'obvious' Biden's team is 'working like hell' when the backlog has been a huge issue for months? Like, if I had a leaky pipe for months and told my partner I'm 'working like hell' to fix it he'd probably be really mad if I was instead giving rapists lucrative contracts.
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May 11, 2021 23:07
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Yeah fixing a 1.3 million case backlog is just like calling a contractor.
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May 11, 2021 23:13
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Herstory Begins Now posted:Yeah fixing a 1.3 million case backlog is just like calling a contractor. that was more a joke about how they're still using facilities and workers actively named in sexual and physical abuse cases, hence the rather sudden shift from the leaky pipe analogy to 'it's hosed up we're still dumping money on rapists!'
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May 11, 2021 23:17
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sexpig by night posted:that was more a joke about how they're still using facilities and workers actively named in sexual and physical abuse cases, hence the rather sudden shift from the leaky pipe analogy to 'it's hosed up we're still dumping money on rapists!' could you explain the joke?
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May 12, 2021 01:29
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Herstory Begins Now posted:Yeah fixing a 1.3 million case backlog is just like calling a contractor. When do we stop giving the Biden admin slack and hold their feet to the fire? How many months or years?
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May 12, 2021 01:35
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DoomTrainPhD posted:When do we stop giving the Biden admin slack and hold their feet to the fire? How many months or years? Who do you see suggesting that
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May 12, 2021 01:56
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DoomTrainPhD posted:If “insanely high demand” is causing a backlog perhaps they can invest more resources into clearing said backlog? It’s not like this has been a secret problem they just found out about last month. sexpig by night posted:why are you assuming that it's 'obvious' Biden's team is 'working like hell' when the backlog has been a huge issue for months? I'm not assuming anything. I've actually been following the issue very closely. Below are some resources that detail the Biden administration's early accomplishments on immigration. Lawfare Blog President Biden’s Immigration Executive Actions: A Recap (March 3, 2021) This is a really good overview of what Biden has done about immigration so far, which of those actions are limited in scope and where improvements are needed. Importantly, it starts by pointing out that one needs to have realistic expectations, and why: quote:While [Biden's] executive actions are a meaningful first step, their scope is limited for a number of reasons. The whole article is pretty great, but the most important point it makes is that undoing Trump's bullshit is not just a matter of waving a magic wand. The Biden administration has to go about it carefully in order to make sure their cancellation of previous EOs, or the new rules they come up with, are not vulnerable to litigation. And no, let's not do the whole "why care about the law at all, when Trump didn't?" thing because it's tedious as gently caress. Migration Policy Institute Border Challenges Dominate, But Biden’s First 100 Days Mark Notable Under-the-Radar Immigration Accomplishments (April 26, 2021) quote:...as Biden nears 100 days in office on April 30, he has, with little fanfare, notched accomplishments in other areas of immigration policy that rival and in some cases surpass what his predecessors did in the same amount of time. As of this writing, the Biden administration had taken 94 executive actions on immigration, according to a Migration Policy Institute (MPI) count. This compares with the fewer than 30 taken during the first 100 days of Donald Trump’s presidency, which was arguably more active on immigration than any prior U.S. administration. Once again you should read or at least skim through the whole thing because it's very thorough. Lastly: American Immigration Lawyers Association Featured Issue: Early Immigration Actions Taken by the Biden Administration (April 29, 2021) This page is a useful compilation of various links, and if you care about immigration you should bookmark it. Notably, it also makes the same point as the previous two articles above: quote:This featured issue page will track the new administration’s actions during the first 100 days. While we expect many announcements in the initial months, the real, lasting work of overturning the deleterious policies of the Trump administration and implementing a new vision will take time.
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May 12, 2021 02:11
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Thorn Wishes Talon posted:You are right to complain lack of access to the facilities, but regarding lack of vetting or oversight, it's probably due to lack of ability to source those services due to insanely high demand, rather than due to a mix of incompetence, negligence or malice. It seems fairly obvious that the Biden administration is working like hell to get a handle on the crisis (and succeeding in some ways and failing in others), whereas the Trump administration not only didn't care, but also thought that treating refugees cruelly would discourage more from coming. There's no malice in concentration camps? (USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST)
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May 12, 2021 04:03
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Slanderer posted:There's no malice in concentration camps? Not when Joe signs a bunch of meaningless EOs and occasionally says he hears them and sees them I guess. It's weird how he's taken such strong decisive action on immigration and yet the problem is just getting worse.
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May 12, 2021 04:18
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sexpig by night posted:Not when Joe signs a bunch of meaningless EOs and occasionally says he hears them and sees them I guess. It's weird how he's taken such strong decisive action on immigration and yet the problem is just getting worse. Really cool how you ignore literally 100% of expert sources and citations that are painstakingly researched, quoted and presented to you, and instead continue to post your cynical, toxic bullshit.
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May 12, 2021 05:05
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What would you prefer be done instead? You can't wave a magic wand and have thousands of good foster care facilities pop up. Should we release the kids to people claiming to be family without doing proper vetting? Ask for volunteers to take care of the kids? Deport them? What specific actions would you have the Biden administration take?
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May 12, 2021 05:58
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Konstantin posted:What would you prefer be done instead? You can't wave a magic wand and have thousands of good foster care facilities pop up. Should we release the kids to people claiming to be family without doing proper vetting? Ask for volunteers to take care of the kids? Deport them? What specific actions would you have the Biden administration take? Cease these bad faith posts. (USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST)
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May 12, 2021 06:08
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Ghost Leviathan posted:Cease these bad faith posts. I don't find that post bad faith. We go in circles every few weeks. People claim Biden has done nearly nothing, and/or that his executive actions are "worthless", and others ask "what can he do instead" and the inevitable response is "just close the camps and release the refugees into cities!!!!" and then others point out how horrifically stupid of an idea that is, and they are accused of being concentration camp lovers. Look, let's just get real: there's a contingent of people who come running into this thread with every negative immigration story that is published, and they post with the subtext of "hah look! another Biden fuckup!!! we told ya he was bad  ". There's literally nothing Biden can do, and no well-sourced argument the rest of us can mount, to make these posters go "wow okay, sorry, I was wrong, I gotta hand it to Joe, he is handling it well." People criticizing Biden in this thread 100% don't care about the incredible complexities of our immigration system, and don't care that Biden himself cannot singlehandedly fix its plethora of problems, and won't even acknowledge the significant amount of good he has done that has benefited hundreds of thousands of immigrants. To them, immigration is just another cudgel with which to smack him and anyone who dares point out he's doing a decent job, even if those people follow that up with "but he needs to do a lot better!" Do you disagree? Then respond to the three links I posted above, and point by point explain why each of the executive actions and policy changes they describe is actually worthless. Go ahead, I'll wait.
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May 12, 2021 06:37
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Konstantin posted:What would you prefer be done instead? You can't wave a magic wand Woot, I'm so glad to see this Obama-era trope reappear under Biden.  (USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST)
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May 12, 2021 06:43
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Trump made 1000 changes to the immigration system, I'd hope Biden undoes those 1000 changes within his term, they'll take the same amount of time it took Trump to make them, and Biden may even get four more years instead of Trump's single term. Trump had to do the same things to change them in the first place. When they are changed, it is likely Biden's administration will leave his own mark while undoing Trumps. I'm imagining that Biden's immigration officials are going to want to undo the Trump administration's work as quickly as possible, it just sucks the damage Trump did in four years to a system that has faced steep criticism for decades. Nonsense fucked around with this message at 06:50 on May 12, 2021 |
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May 12, 2021 06:45
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Willa Rogers posted:Woot, I'm so glad to see this Obama-era trope reappear under Biden. It's amazing how childish it is and yet it's apparently considered good faith, mature and intelligent. Of course, if you do offer a solution of your own, it will invariably be called unrealistic, infeasible and extreme, and proof that we should leave such things to our betters.
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May 12, 2021 13:08
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Thorn Wishes Talon posted:I don't find that post bad faith. We go in circles every few weeks. People claim Biden has done nearly nothing, and/or that his executive actions are "worthless", and others ask "what can he do instead" and the inevitable response is "just close the camps and release the refugees into cities!!!!" and then others point out how horrifically stupid of an idea that is, and they are accused of being concentration camp lovers. Bringing back “wave a magic wand” seems incredibly bad faith to me. (USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST)
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May 12, 2021 13:45
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Nucleic Acids posted:Bringing back “wave a magic wand” seems incredibly bad faith to me. Could you explain why? Seems to me this boils down to the conflict behind a utilitarian morality and a deontological one. The deontologists come in and think the important question is whether something is bad, whether someone allowing this bad thing is bad, and find it incredible and frustrating that people can disagree with them on this fact. But utilitarians can't agree or disagree because they have a completely different paradigm - they want there to be some functional upshot to the discussion, or else what's the point of condemning someone, and they find it frustrating when the deontolgists are seeking only condemnation. What's happening here isn't really a debate, or a discussion, it's 2 groups unable to have the same conversation.
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May 12, 2021 14:01
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Ghost Leviathan posted:It's amazing how childish it is and yet it's apparently considered good faith, mature and intelligent. Of course, if you do offer a solution of your own, it will invariably be called unrealistic, infeasible and extreme, and proof that we should leave such things to our betters. You're the one positing that the solution exists, so asking you to support that position by say... telling us what it is.... Is hardly bad faith. Neither is the fact people will tear it down if it's ridiculous. I don't know what you think "bad faith" means, but it's not "argument I have no answer for".
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May 12, 2021 14:07
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Jarmak posted:You're the one positing that the solution exists, so asking you to support that position by say... telling us what it is.... Is hardly bad faith. People have offered solutions though.
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May 12, 2021 14:14
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Discendo Vox posted:No, it doesn't. There is no benefit in destroying the civil service because you read an article in the Hill. By doing this you inflict more damage than Trump had accomplished in his term. Whatever will we do without this oppressive government killing people and stealing from the poor... (USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST)
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May 12, 2021 14:26
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I didn't think I'd have to repeat myself on the same loving page, yet here we are.Handsome Ralph posted:Per GJB's request for review by someone uninvolved in the current discussion, I am going to remind everyone that while we get this is an extremely contentious and sensitive topic, it does not give you a license to post like a toxic shithead if someone disagrees with you.
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May 12, 2021 14:28
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Handsome Ralph posted:I didn't think I'd have to repeat myself on the same loving page, yet here we are. hey can you at least explain how 'wave a magic wand' and accusing anyone who disagrees with them of being some secret shadow cabal of posters who runs in to just say we hate biden and be smug is 'good faith' (USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST) (USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST)
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May 12, 2021 17:13
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