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Regarde Aduck posted:what alternatives? e: terrible snipe 
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May 11, 2021 22:11
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Pistol_Pete posted:How did Mandelson slime his way back into the centre of things, anyway? I thought he was a marginal figure who'd largely given up on directly involving himself in politics years ago.
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May 11, 2021 22:15
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https://twitter.com/Keir_Starmer/status/1392228001916596228 God he's insufferable. Won't commit to saying how much he wants NHS workers to get, because that might upset someone! But happy to make vague suggestions of "a pay rise" and pathetically try to latch on to a celebrity saying the same thing.
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May 11, 2021 22:23
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Regarde Aduck posted:what alternatives? Pfizer and incoming Moderna.
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May 11, 2021 22:28
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A friend of mine often makes the point that political promises of NHS pay rises are always framed as % increases, which is really regressive and also totally abstract if you're not receiving an NHS salary and able to work out what it equates to. The average NHS salary is £37,500 so for the same cost as a 2% rise across the board you could give every staff member a £750 raise. It would mean nothing to a chief exec but nobody's going to lose sleep over that. It would mean hell of a lot to thousands of other people like nurses and porters though.
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May 11, 2021 22:35
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Szmitten posted:Pfizer and incoming Moderna. And probably Novavax in the next month or so too. And all of them seem to have more resiliance against the current variants too and if given the option any non-oxford jab should be a no brainer
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May 11, 2021 22:43
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it might sound bad but thats already an ok wage and yeah maybe they deserve more but I'm less interested in a pay rise for nhs employees than I am a commitment to make sure nhs employees remain that. My mum retired as some bullshit made up employee that she never wanted to be.
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May 11, 2021 22:50
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Endjinneer posted:A friend of mine often makes the point that political promises of NHS pay rises are always framed as % increases, which is really regressive and also totally abstract if you're not receiving an NHS salary and able to work out what it equates to. I've always thought about that. Senior doctors frankly get paid gently caress loads on very generous terms already, yet the benefits of any percentage salary increase accrue disproportionately to them. The average earnings of an NHS consultant are something like £127k a year with absurd pension benefits. Similarly arguments about "NHS" pay rises have a strong tendency to get hijacked by doctors because they're well connected and have a lot of public platforms available to them. Like, people will talk about nurses pay but the opinion pieces in newspapers and the prominent commentators on Twitter will always be doctors, and it often end up with the government buying off doctors only to shut them up and make the wider problem die down.,
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May 11, 2021 22:52
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jabby posted:https://twitter.com/Keir_Starmer/status/1392228001916596228 Between this and his vague comments implying the murder of Palestinians is bad... is he trying to get the left of the party back on side?
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May 11, 2021 22:56
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peanut- posted:I've always thought about that. Senior doctors frankly get paid gently caress loads on very generous terms already, yet the benefits of any percentage salary increase accrue disproportionately to them. The average earnings of an NHS consultant are something like £127k a year with absurd pension benefits. i recall this line of argument shat the thread up for several days last time
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May 11, 2021 23:01
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peanut- posted:I've always thought about that. Senior doctors frankly get paid gently caress loads on very generous terms already, yet the benefits of any percentage salary increase accrue disproportionately to them. The average earnings of an NHS consultant are something like £127k a year with absurd pension benefits. gently caress off. Senior doctors get paid generously, after about fifteen years of training and experience in miserable conditions. Their pay has been eroded about 10% in the past decade, and those "absurd" pension benefits have been slashed twice in the last twenty years. But congrats for hitting out at those public sector workers getting paid "gently caress loads" with their "absurd" public sector pensions, I'm sure they'll be cut again soon. I'd also love to know how we've been "bought off" "often", considering our recent strike due to the huge loss of pay and degradation of our working conditions under the Tories. So glad to find out I'm "well connected" though! Seriously, if you consider yourself on the left I'd kindly suggest that hitting out at NHS doctors is not the right approach, particularly now. I support increasing nurses pay and I'd support an increase for the lower paid NHS workers over and above an increase for myself, but if you could refrain from making GBS threads on my profession as overpaid assholes with the ear of the government that'd be great. You might as well complain about greedy tube drivers while you're at it. jabby fucked around with this message at 23:20 on May 11, 2021 |
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May 11, 2021 23:15
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I think medics generally have more effective union representation than non-medics do. Unison, who I'm a member of, are loving useless. They were incredibly enthusiastic about the dogshit 2018 settlement and have shown no contrition at all for selling thousands of NHS staff down the river on a piece of poo poo pay deal. Which - don't get me wrong - the worst paid NHS staff did very well from that pay deal. The abolition of Agenda for Change Band 1 posts has been overdue for years, and the uplift to pay for Bands 2-4 (and the first half of Band 5) was also good. But being told it was a great deal, when it was far from it still rankles. Doctors have a more visible presence in the media, and notably they were able to negotiate a better deal than Agenda for Change staff got in 2018. It still wasn't a good deal, but it was better. And doctors saying "We don't get paid enough" still carries more weight than nurses saying the same (which carries more weight than Allied Health Professionals, who may as well not exist when it comes to the media), particularly when the public perception is still that nurses just go around wiping patient's arses and looking pretty for the doctors.
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May 11, 2021 23:25
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Come on man, you get to retire at 60 and there's a persistent problem with consultants having to turn down work because their accrued pensions are worth over £1.1m by the age of 45. Any NHS consultant working 5 days a week will be earning well over £100k a year easily and pushing £200k without that much effort. I don't mind what doctors earn at all, really I don't, but the performative outrage is eye roll inducing and any conversation on NHS pay should be realistic about what the various parties involved actually earn. The reality is having a conversation about "NHS" pay led by consultants is like having a conversation on pay for Amazon warehouse workers led by software developers.
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May 11, 2021 23:25
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NotJustANumber99 posted:it might sound bad but thats already an ok wage and yeah maybe they deserve more but I'm less interested in a pay rise for nhs employees than I am a commitment to make sure nhs employees remain that. My mum retired as some bullshit made up employee that she never wanted to be. Why not both? Legislating to pay the staff better would probably do more to scare off Virgin Health by eroding their potential profit margins than anything else. That salary is a good one and significantly better than national median, but it's only there to show the maths working. There's loads of political capital you could make from the difference between a £750 rise and what 2% actually equates to if you're a nurse or a porter.
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May 11, 2021 23:29
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peanut- posted:Come on man, you get to retire at 60 The NHS pension age is 68, same as the state pension. The earliest it can be taken, with significant reductions, is 65. peanut- posted:Any NHS consultant working 5 days a week will be earning well over £100k a year easily and pushing £200k without that much effort. Unless you're counting private work, that's bullshit. Starting salary of £82k, which includes on-call commitments over and above a 5 day week. peanut- posted:I don't mind what doctors earn at all, really I don't, but the performative outrage is eye roll inducing and any conversation on NHS pay should be realistic about what the various parties involved actually earn. Again, our pay has dropped by 10% in the last decade, we work in horrible conditions, have one of the highest rates of suicide and you're telling me we've been repeatedly "bought off" by the government because we're "well connected". Am I not supposed to feel insulted by that? Doctors are not stifling anybody out of the discussion around NHS pay rises. If anything, we are used by the tabloid media as an example of overpaid slackers with gold-plated pensions (much like you are doing now) because it distracts attention from lower paid workers. We are not responsible for that. If our union fights hard for our representation (they actually don't), then good. Again, pay is not a zero sum game. Workers are workers, and trying to pit them against each other sucks. We are not responsible for the lovely pay of our own colleagues, thanks. I would suggest you've been reading too many Daily Mail articles about edge case orthopedic surgeons who've put in so much overtime doing hip replacements they've gone over the pensions limit, and now you think that applies to your average general medical consultant. It doesn't. jabby fucked around with this message at 23:38 on May 11, 2021 |
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May 11, 2021 23:34
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Oh no only 82k how can you possibly survive on such little money
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May 11, 2021 23:45
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History Comes Inside! posted:Oh no only 82k how can you possibly survive on such little money And I'm out, after remembering how bad this thread was for my mental health the last time I jumped back in. Being treated like some member of the ruling class because of my profession (which I could add, I went into from a single parent, living in a flat above a shop, lovely public school background) isn't fun, and I don't think you actually understand the reality of being a doctor beyond the pay that you see is achievable at some point fifteen years or so into your career. Workers are workers, we all have the same class interests but if you'd rather see me as the enemy that's fine. So if you think that's what I was actually saying, seriously gently caress you. I was in no way complaining that its not enough, I was correcting someone making wild exaggerations. I know what it's like to grow up in poverty, with my mum choosing between feeding us or feeding the electric meter. I know the value of money and I don't come to this thread for moral support. But I also don't come so people can make me feel bad for the amount of money I might make in the future if I stick this out for another 7 or so years. Thanks but no thanks. jabby fucked around with this message at 00:34 on May 12, 2021 |
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May 11, 2021 23:47
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Jel Shaker posted:i recall this line of argument shat the thread up for several days last time  let's not do this one again
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May 11, 2021 23:51
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jabby posted:Unless you're counting private work, that's bullshit. Starting salary of £82k, which includes on-call commitments over and above a 5 day week. Starting salary, which then goes up year by year. And clinical excellence awards get added, and anti-social hours premiums, deciding to work a full 5 day week twice a month at locum rates of £1,000 a day. I'm not actually just pulling this from the Mail, average actual take-home from the NHS for a consultant bounces between £125-130k a year. Doctors are workers and I genuinely believe you earn what you get paid, but it's not unreasonable to consider that the NHS isn't just a monolithic block where all parties have the same interests. That certainly isn't how it works internally - doctors aren't sharing a union or engaging in common negotiations with other NHS employees. This is all feels a bit nasty but basically I just really agree with Endjinneer that it would be really good to talk about NHS pay rises in absolute terms not percentage terms.
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May 12, 2021 00:01
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https://twitter.com/samfoster99/status/1392197446567071747?s=21 Corbyn is a sex demon, you heard it here first (except that this is the UKMT, and you almost certainly didn't hear it here first).
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May 12, 2021 00:02
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Doctors are underpaid because they add more value to society than the cost of their labour, both because peoples healthcare is important in keeping them productive and because keeping people alive and healthy is a core expectation of a modern society. A flat rate pay rise would probably be more ideal than a % one, but frankly we were just talking about the importance of narratives - and % is how people think about permanent pay rises, while flat rate is used for bonuses.
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May 12, 2021 00:03
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Darth Walrus posted:https://twitter.com/samfoster99/status/1392197446567071747?s=21 Are we sure Mandy didn't just mean that Jezza has joined alt-metal band Incubus?
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May 12, 2021 00:05
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Hey how about instead of attacking the workers who are actually making a good wage, we instead turn our attention back to the people preventing everyone else from earning as rewarding a wage? Senior consultants though, that's a different story.
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May 12, 2021 00:05
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Most of my friends are in finance or medicine. Investment Banking is seriously exploitative and the suicide rates are very high. My friends who are in IB are systematically more miserable than anyone else, even though they are paid over 200k. The money doesn't compensate for the exploitation but obviously they still will never experience the precarity and vulnerability of earning less than 20k, and the challenges relating to access to capital. We can acknowledge their exploitation at the same time as recognising their privilege.
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May 12, 2021 00:14
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Imagine voting labour and then attacking doctors because their union is good and actually fights in their interests and results in them being paid what they're actually worth. If you're bitter you don't get paid what you're worth I suggest you unionize and fight against the people actually underpaying you rather than attack the people who've been fighting that fight already.
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May 12, 2021 00:18
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History Comes Inside! posted:Oh no only 82k how can you possibly survive on such little money gently caress this post.
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May 12, 2021 00:21
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People are being narky sulks as usual, but I have to agree;stev posted:gently caress this post.
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May 12, 2021 00:25
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Someone earning 3-4 times what most people I know earn in a year complaining about how little that actually is is hosed up, sorry.
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May 12, 2021 00:28
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Bobby Deluxe posted:Momentum currently seem pretty good but I've heard people talk about problems with their regional offices. A large number of unions also seem to have issues with the people at the top being more bothered with trying to salvage their relationship with Labour than dealing with worker issues. Those problems must be pretty massive considering we don’t have regional offices. Maybe you’re thinking of our regional groups? Those are member-led groups that meet up to organise, educate and socialise. Many of them are very good, a bunch are basically defunct, and yeah, some descend into internal drama, because hey, it’s left-wing politics. We’re actually in the middle of a big programme to revitalise them right now.
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May 12, 2021 00:29
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If everyone on the planet got the same wage we'd all be on something like 30k ish.
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May 12, 2021 00:30
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History Comes Inside! posted:Someone earning 3-4 times what most people I know earn in a year complaining about how little that actually is is hosed up, sorry. You should read the other posts after yours explaining why this is counterrevolutionary thought, rather than getting mad about what you imagined that guy saying
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May 12, 2021 00:30
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Nah I just think that in the long long line of people who desperately need (and deserve) to get more money to live on, people who earn 82k as a starting salary are way the gently caress near the back.
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May 12, 2021 00:32
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https://twitter.com/LabourAccel/status/1392133844099289095?s=20
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May 12, 2021 00:33
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History Comes Inside! posted:Nah I just think that in the long long line of people who desperately need (and deserve) to get more money to live on, people who earn 82k as a starting salary are way the gently caress near the back. Yeah you're right making GBS threads on doctors is going to make those people get paid more, right?
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May 12, 2021 00:37
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Every frontline healthcare worker earns £82k/yr from day one. I am very smart.
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May 12, 2021 00:38
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Yeah that’s definitely what I said, you got me 
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May 12, 2021 00:47
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Darth Walrus posted:https://twitter.com/samfoster99/status/1392197446567071747?s=21 That's absurd, if Corbyn was a sex demon he never would've been kicked out of the party. https://twitter.com/inthesedeserts/status/1392057480402935808?s=20
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May 12, 2021 00:48
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I have a memory from either the late 70s or the 80s where there was a flat rate pay rise of £250 p.a. for everyone earning less than a particular figure - maybe £5k - I can't quite recall. This did cause some issues for those on just over £5k who got nothing and got 'jumped over' by people perhaps on a lower band who by means of the £250 jumped over them. (Similar things used to happen where you could only get a pay rise once a year but a new person coming in with less experience would instantly get more than you who had been doing the job for up to a year longer and were probably training the newbie. A large, popular - ahem - national transport organisation I used to work for used to have a strange policy that the max pay rise you could get on a promotion was 7% (IIRC) so you were paid for your NEW post on the basis of your OLD post - whereas someone coming in new would automatically get higher pay. I did protest informally to our HR "business partner" (what a title - such nonsense - but I digress) that this was sexist as a lot of men came in from shift work and their shift pay was taken into account in that calculation whereas most women did not do shift work and so ended up getting less pay to do the same new job but was basically told by HR not to make something of it.
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May 12, 2021 00:49
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I think the relevant question is "do senior consultants hijack pay rise discussions, at the expense of lower paid workers?" could pay rises be weighted more towards nurses and porters? could the doctors strike in solidarity with nurses, or are there legal/political reasons that prevent NHS workers from working together that way? are doctors more represented in the media, and does that impact negotiations? how much of this is actually just Tories being Tories, screwing everyone over? bluntly, everything else is just an argument about how nicely to phrase "doctors get compensated more than other (healthcare) workers" - which is true, even if/regardless of whether they also undergo greater hardship or not
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May 12, 2021 00:51
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History Comes Inside! posted:Someone earning 3-4 times what most people I know earn in a year complaining about how little that actually is is hosed up, sorry. Except they’ve literally not complained about it being too little. Turning on a fellow worker in such a lovely and kinda vicious way doesn’t help the struggle.
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May 12, 2021 00:52
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