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Internet Explorer posted:I dunno. For a lot of younger American Jews that I know, talking to their family about Israel is painful. I think a lot of my parent's generation grew up hearing stories of their parents and family fleeing Germany or being killed in the Holocaust. I don't think they are being pushed to support Israel because of the conservatives. That's fair, but I think the conservatives have been pushing the Israel = All Jews, bit. There is also a drive from the far right, but thats more, "we love Israel, you should move there and not be here anymore," combined with admiration for an explicit ethnostate that kills Muslims. wisconsingreg fucked around with this message at 01:42 on May 12, 2021 |
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May 12, 2021 01:20
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I’m seeing this make the rounds on twitter. Cant say I’m a fan of Israel, their right wing leadership is insane and I nod along to every Eli Valley comic criticizing their actions, but, uh, what’s the logical endpoint where you say Israel isn’t a country? It clearly is. https://mobile.twitter.com/anitasarkeesian/status/1392134298065543168 What’s the endpoint of this logic? Endlessly try to figure out which soil belongs to whose blood and make them all stay there? At a certain point if there’s a bunch of immigration from one place to another the immigrants are gonna be in charge. Although I realize Britain carving out Israel for the settlers with its imperial power complicates this.
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May 12, 2021 01:31
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I can only speak about my own experience but I grew up in an Orthodox household (this being in a country where Orthodox is closer to Conservative Judaism in the States than ultra-Religious)and both my grandparents had family that perished in the Holocaust. My grandfather was a proud early supporter of Israel and sent money/donations and even bought land that has never been developed. We used to go to a Jewish summer camp, and all three main Jewish summer camps had zionism as one of their main tenants (one was religious, one was.....militant, and one was socialist). I travelled to Israel about three times in my youth with my parents and grandparents. I went to a Jewish private school where we learnt that in the 1800's due to pogroms and general anti-Semitism a lot of Jews in eastern Europe made way to what was then Palestine in the first of many waves of mass migration. Then the Holocaust happened/was happening and many more Jews tried to escape to Palestine but due to British fuckery there was a limit and Jews had to be smuggled in lest they be sent back to Europe to be slaughtered. I remember my Israeli history teacher being somewhat sympathetic to the Palestinians (more so than others). I remember him saying that between Israel and Egypt/Jordan the Palestinians were basically treated like pawns and treated like poo poo. That was about the extent of what Palestinians were going through that was discussed in.....positive terms (I have heard worse). There is definitely a generational attachment to Israel that is a lot stronger one gets closer to the Holocaust. As I mentioned before, people in my parents generation believe that if Israel didn't exist all the Jews in the middle east would be wiped out, and all the Jews in the Diaspora would have no safe refuge to go to in case their country decided to do another Holocaust. ^^^^ I mean according to that logic, Palestine isn't a country as it was never independent and was part of the Ottoman Empire. To say that Israel isn't a country is some kind of weird semantic BS
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May 12, 2021 01:32
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PT6A posted:I feel like it's possible to support Israel as a concept without approving of many of the actions they've taken in the past and are taking now. "Israel as a jewish ethnostate should exist" is fundamentally incompatible with opposing the latter statement Like the only humane way to support israel as a "concept" is as a secular state that is not explicitly jewish or arab, but explicitly multi-ethnic with no occupation and equal rights for all citizens. That immediately runs into a contradiction with the actual reality of the conception, formation and practices of the israeli state mila kunis fucked around with this message at 01:43 on May 12, 2021 |
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May 12, 2021 01:34
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That slippery slope slides in both directions
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May 12, 2021 01:35
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Ccs posted:I’m seeing this make the rounds on twitter. Cant say I’m a fan of Israel, their right wing leadership is insane and I nod along to every Eli Valley comic criticizing their actions, but, uh, what’s the logical endpoint where you say Israel isn’t a country? It clearly is. This is stupid. People for some reason believe its only a "country" if it has deep ancestral ties to a place. No place has that. National identity that was tied to land like that was invented basically 5 generations ago. No place is a country with this logic. That said, the people who try to make "historic claims" for contemporary polities are basically engagning in nazi logic. A 200 y/o Hebrew engraving does not make a place Israeli, being controlled by the State of Israel does.
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May 12, 2021 01:46
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Zionism is also kinda really racist as a historical idea. It's a reflection of anti-Semitism running challenger deep in European culture, with the biggest non-Jewish arguments for it being "Jews should have their own country because then we can kick them the gently caress out of ours" and "I Arthur Balfour should issue a declaration in favor of a Jewish state in Palestine because then those Jews that control international banking will help us win this war". You of course then have the Jewish Zionists who are in favor on the basis of "it sure would be nice to have a place where people weren't horrifically racist to us" which is considerably more commendable, but it's hard to square that with the awful ethnostate modern Israeli has become. It's easy to lose sight of the fact that back in the day a lot of Jews were opposed to Zionism because what they really wanted was to be accepted in the countries they already lived in. It's a shame we didn't get to live in that world. Nowadays, given that Israel already exists, I think the only moral position is this one: quote:the only humane way to support israel as a "concept" is as a secular state that is not explicitly jewish or arab, but explicitly multi-ethnic with no occupation and equal rights for all citizens But probably only after demolishing the settlements and returning that land to the Palestinians PittTheElder fucked around with this message at 02:01 on May 12, 2021 |
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May 12, 2021 01:50
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Yes, it's like a lava lamp.
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Ccs posted:I’m seeing this make the rounds on twitter. Cant say I’m a fan of Israel, their right wing leadership is insane and I nod along to every Eli Valley comic criticizing their actions, but, uh, what’s the logical endpoint where you say Israel isn’t a country? It clearly is. The endpoint of that logic is to oppose "Israel" existing as a "Jewish state" where Jewish citizens are privileged above a persecuted non-Jewish majority in any territory under Israeli control. It is explicitly in opposition to the political framework of "Israel as the nation-state of the Jewish people", which is the essence of zionism and the explicit text of the 2018 "nation-state law" ( https://www.jpost.com/Israel-News/Read-the-full-Jewish-Nation-State-Law-562923 you can access the full text here ) . It has been becoming more and more obvious over the past several decades that whatever you thought about it, liberal zionism in Israel has been defeated as a political project, and the jewish supremacist right that thinks in terms of the Jewish nation-state is in full control of society and politics. Saying that "Israel" has no right to exist means that no state has a moral right to exist as an ethnostate which sustains itself by means of a brutal apartheid regime, either in Rhodesia, South Africa, Oakland, or the Levant.
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May 12, 2021 02:07
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PT6A posted:I feel like it's possible to support Israel as a concept without approving of many of the actions they've taken in the past and are taking now. Israel's existence is based solely on the expulsion of Palestinian people from the land they lived on for thousands of year by people who often don't have any ancestral link to the region. You can't view Israel as a progressive country in any circumstance.
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May 12, 2021 02:29
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Chuka Umana posted:Israel's existence is based solely on the expulsion of Palestinian people from the land they lived on for thousands of year by people who often don't have any ancestral link to the region. You can't view Israel as a progressive country in any circumstance. Be careful with the "no ancestral link" thing, unless you want to deny the fact that the Jewish people lived in the region until the destruction of the temple and the expulsion to the Diaspora of the Jewish people. This kind of history has always been part of the Jewish culture to the point of being written down as a longing of the people to return to that land one day.
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May 12, 2021 02:33
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Madkal posted:Be careful with the "no ancestral link" thing, unless you want to deny the fact that the Jewish people lived in the region until the destruction of the temple and the expulsion to the Diaspora of the Jewish people. This kind of history has always been part of the Jewish culture to the point of being written down as a longing of the people to return to that land one day. Religious books, as good as a deed.
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May 12, 2021 02:36
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Madkal posted:Be careful with the "no ancestral link" thing, unless you want to deny the fact that the Jewish people lived in the region until the destruction of the temple and the expulsion to the Diaspora of the Jewish people. This kind of history has always been part of the Jewish culture to the point of being written down as a longing of the people to return to that land one day. Even more importantly, "ancestral links" should not be used to determine borders. We learned this 80 years ago.
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May 12, 2021 02:41
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CommieGIR posted:Religious books, as good as a deed. Are you saying there is no proof of Jews living in the area outside of "religious books" because if so that is blatantly false.
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May 12, 2021 02:44
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 Reports of massive barrages on telaviv over the last few hours with the Israeli air force bombing buildings all over Gaza, mainly large housing complexes and semi critical infrastructure. Not to give no credit where it is due, but hamas is doing a fine job of overwhelming Iron dome as they have said they would attempt to since the thing came about. https://twitter.com/i/status/1392183704986996744 WAR CRIME GIGOLO fucked around with this message at 02:47 on May 12, 2021 |
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May 12, 2021 02:44
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tatankatonk posted:Saying that "Israel" has no right to exist means that no state has a moral right to exist as an ethnostate which sustains itself by means of a brutal apartheid regime, either in Rhodesia, South Africa, Oakland, or the Levant. Yeah that’s not what that graphic is saying though. It should have just said that, that’s a way better and more convincing argument than trying to split hairs about whether a country is a country or not, just because it exists due to settlers. Instead it just encourages people to pick almost literally any country and roll back to when it began in blood. And then go “well Israel isn’t any different, must be fine.” No state has a "right" to exist. It's not a person, it can't have rights. States accumulate power or consensus to exist. States rise and fall all the time, & as before beyond a state's ability to secure its borders and gain recognition, what justification does any have to exist? Ccs fucked around with this message at 03:15 on May 12, 2021 |
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May 12, 2021 02:46
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Madkal posted:Are you saying there is no proof of Jews living in the area outside of "religious books" because if so that is blatantly false. And theres proof that Italy used to exceed its boundaries as well as Turkey and others. Its not proof of ownership. Archeology AND Religion, apparently good enough as a land deed.
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May 12, 2021 02:47
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https://twitter.com/greg_price11/status/1392227231473180672?s=19 Other reports saying martial law has been declared and troops being sent in, and that synagogues have been broken into and their religious texts burned. https://twitter.com/AviMayer/status/1392239048056623108?s=19 https://twitter.com/FoxNews/status/1392287443404140548?s=19
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May 12, 2021 03:04
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The question of "should Israel exist" present-tense is very different from "should Israel have been created?" Yeah, a bunch of people hosed up badly, the Israeli state should never have existed in the form it did/does. Expelling Israelis from that land, now, isn't really a viable option, though. There's going to be some kind of a country that respects the basic right of Israelis to exist, because there is simply no option for that not to occur. Reparations should be paid to Palestinians both for the harms incurred at the creation of Israel and the numerous crimes committed against them ever since, but at this point, 73 years after the establishment of the country, you can't just say "pack your poo poo and get out." That's what Israel is saying to the Palestinians right now, as we speak, and we recognize that it's abhorrent. We can't undo the past, we can only improve the future. Realistically it must involve fundamental changes to the nature of the Israeli state, and suitable reparations paid to the victims of Israeli settler-colonialism, but it must constitutionally respect the right of Israelis to continue to live in whatever successor state exists and enjoy status as an equal citizens to Palestinians. Additionally, reparations should be proportionate to the harms incurred. If you're living in a settlement which violates international law, the reparations should be "the entire value of the property stolen and/or destroyed, plus money for pain and suffering." If you're living in pre-1967 Israel, the reparations can just be a reasonable amount to fairly compensate the Palestinians who have suffered under Israeli sovereignty. Then, once we establish that the reparations system works, we should implement it in North America to compensate First Nations people and Black people, because we did the same poo poo.
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May 12, 2021 03:05
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It was mentioned earlier, but bombs were dropped deliberately on this building https://twitter.com/theIMEU/status/1392208664220536835?s=20
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May 12, 2021 03:10
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just tossing down some WP https://twitter.com/Farah_Gazan/status/1392258518544261120
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May 12, 2021 03:16
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Israeli army says that carried out a targeted assassination against the head of Hamas' military intelligence and his deputy (If anyone can validate the next statement please say something) reports that messages are being passed by Egypt between Hamas and Israel, and Israel doesn't want ceasefire in light of today's rocket barrages WAR CRIME GIGOLO fucked around with this message at 03:27 on May 12, 2021 |
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May 12, 2021 03:23
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https://twitter.com/scottwongDC/status/1392303462319366144?s=20 Israel is going to have carte blanche just like always.
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May 12, 2021 03:26
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It's ridiculous. I see things like "well the Palestinians should aim for military targets!" Bitch, I bet if they had access to technology to allow them to do that, they'd do it! As it is, they really have no choice but to launch and hope for the best in the face of an ongoing military assault by a much better-equipped and trained force. They are acting not out of malice, but desperation!
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May 12, 2021 03:30
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also, ya know, when you're occupied every arm of the occupying force (IE, the settlements) is indeed a 'military target'. Personally if I didn't want my cafes to be possibly dinged by rockets I'd simply not build them in someone else's neighborhoods after kicking them out of their homes
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May 12, 2021 03:35
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PT6A posted:It's ridiculous. I see things like "well the Palestinians should aim for military targets!" Palestinians are firing rockets at oil refineries and oil pipelines. So they are hitting military targets. And hamas hasnt activated yet so be prepared for that aspect of this now that Israel has declined the ceasefire request.
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May 12, 2021 03:57
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WAR CRIME GIGOLO posted:Palestinians are firing rockets at oil refineries and oil pipelines. So they are hitting military targets. And hamas hasnt activated yet so be prepared for that aspect of this now that Israel has declined the ceasefire request. Yes, I do believe they are targeting military targets to the best of their ability. I also believe their ability to precisely target is, to put it bluntly, not something we'd accept of a properly-equipped military in the year of our lord 2021. So, yeah, I understand why people are pissed off and scared, even if I believe the Palestinians' actions are completely justified at this point. It's a really poo poo situation for everyone involved at the moment. But let's not lie to ourselves: the better-equipped occupying force which has provoked this conflict time after time, bears 99.9% of the responsibility. They are the ones with the ability to stop this, and if they choose not to do so and the consequence is that a few rockets go off target and hit civilians, they are the ones who are morally responsible.
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May 12, 2021 04:29
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Madkal posted:Be careful with the "no ancestral link" thing, unless you want to deny the fact that the Jewish people lived in the region until the destruction of the temple and the expulsion to the Diaspora of the Jewish people. This kind of history has always been part of the Jewish culture to the point of being written down as a longing of the people to return to that land one day. Completely worthless as a measurement of land ownership. I understand it as a motive for Jewish settling but the events you're describing happened thousands of years ago. My ancestors lived in Africa 500,000 years ago but it doesn't justify European colonialism in Africa.
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May 12, 2021 05:11
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Not saying it's a claim for land, just saying that someone saying a ethnic group doesn't have a ancestral link to the land is false. Imagine saying to African Americans they have no ancestral link to Africa because their ancestors were brought to America hundreds of years ago.
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May 12, 2021 05:22
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Y’know, considering there’s a civil war of sorts sparking off in an area of strategic importance to the entire world, the lack of coverage, outside specific sources that one must seek out, is really sort of conspicuous by its absence.
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May 12, 2021 05:56
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It would be hard to cover it much while avoiding the obvious conclusion that this was entirely incited by Israel. Once the armed violence has escalated for a couple more days and the inconvenient details become lost in the fog of war, then the real coverage will start.
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May 12, 2021 06:06
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PT6A posted:The question of "should Israel exist" present-tense is very different from "should Israel have been created?" Why not do the reparations around the world all at once?
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May 12, 2021 06:07
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May 12, 2021 06:23
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Madkal posted:Not saying it's a claim for land, just saying that someone saying a ethnic group doesn't have a ancestral link to the land is false. Imagine saying to African Americans they have no ancestral link to Africa because their ancestors were brought to America hundreds of years ago. I don't think African Americans would argue they have a right to land and a polity of their own within Africa (obviously Liberia exists but that was very much a white mans project in hopes of ridding themselves of the African Americans, so in a way quite a lot like Israel  ), but instead they have a cultural link to there. Which is something any Americanized Jewish person would probably also say. It's a very different thing than loving zionism.
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May 12, 2021 06:59
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This whole thing is very stupid and I'm very tired. Literally no one stands to benefit from any of this, not even the people in charge; obligatory posturing to the detriment of all.
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May 12, 2021 07:19
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emanresu tnuocca posted:This whole thing is very stupid and I'm very tired. A cynic would say Bibi did all of this since he needs an omnipresent, all powerful, but also totally ineffectual threat to fight against so he can be the big strong Israeli prime minister and flex his muscles at the public for the 200th round of elections that are inevitably going to occur.
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May 12, 2021 07:24
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PT6A posted:Y’know, considering there’s a civil war of sorts sparking off in an area of strategic importance to the entire world, the lack of coverage, outside specific sources that one must seek out, is really sort of conspicuous by its absence. Lack of coverage? It's on the front page of every single news site. https://www.bbc.com/ "Israel declares emergency in city as riots erupt" https://www.economist.com/ "Israel and Hamas escalate attacks after tensions in Jerusalem boil over" https://www.nzz.ch/ (main Swiss newspaper) "Israels Raketenabwehrsystem verhinderte zahlreiche Einschläge in Wohnvierteln: so funktioniert «Iron Dome»" https://www.breitbart.com/ (lol Breitbart) "Arab Citizens Riot in Israel; Attack Jewish Neighbors, Synagogues" https://www.foxnews.com/ Israel declares state of emergency in Lod after clashes break out in Arab-Israeli city https://www.lemonde.fr/ (main French newspaper) "Proche-Orient : des dizaines de morts après une nouvelle nuit de violences entre Israël et la bande de Gaza" http://sana.sy/ (main Syrian "news"paper) "٥ شهداء فلسطينيين وعشرات الجرحى في غزة والضفة جراء اعتداءات الاحتلال المتواصلة" . Also weird, SA will *absolutely not* allow a Western Arabic numeral "5" to go at the end of the Arabic text, it forces it to the beginning regardless of what I do unless I do really funky formatting, or change it to an Eastern Arabic 5 ( ٥ ). https://www.dailysabah.com/ (major Turkish newspaper) "Israel resumes airstrikes in Gaza, attacks in Al-Aqsa Mosque" https://www.wort.lu/de (main Luxembourgish paper) "Schwere Raketenangriffe auf Tel Aviv - Hamas bekennt sich" https://www.lanacion.com.ar (major Argentine newspaper) "En menos de tres días, hubo más de 1000 cohetes disparados desde Gaza hacia Israel" Literally it is front-and-center on every single news site. I can't even find one without it. Maybe if I went to like, Times of India, then it would not be on the front page since they're in the middle of the COVID apocalypse. Nope, it is also even on the front page of Times of India, although there not front and center, but way down at the bottom of the front page: https://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/world/middle-east/israel-hamas-escalate-fighting-with-no-end-in-sight/articleshow/82565535.cms "Israel, Hamas escalate fighting with no end in sight" VVVVV: You joke, but insane irredentism is reasonably common in like, any country with a major imperial past. It ebbs and flows in popularity – like I don't think there's much Italian ultranationalism right now – but for instance one of the reasonably common ISIS-and-co claims was that almost everything in Iberia and up to Toulouse should belong back to the Ummah because they had some people that they claim heritage from who were living there for a couple decades 1300 years ago. Andalusia is Moorish land, but also Barcelona and Languedoc. Saladman fucked around with this message at 10:20 on May 12, 2021 |
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May 12, 2021 08:35
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Madkal posted:Are you saying there is no proof of Jews living in the area outside of "religious books" because if so that is blatantly false. Romans used to control Britain up to Hadrians Wall, so I guess England better give back their land to Italy.
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May 12, 2021 09:43
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lilljonas posted:Romans used to control Britain up to Hadrians Wall, so I guess England better give back their land to Vladimir Putin, rightful successor of Rome.
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May 12, 2021 09:47
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Silly man, everyone knows that mighty Serbia is the third Rome.
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May 12, 2021 10:02
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Madkal posted:Be careful with the "no ancestral link" thing, unless you want to deny the fact that the Jewish people lived in the region until the destruction of the temple and the expulsion to the Diaspora of the Jewish people. This kind of history has always been part of the Jewish culture to the point of being written down as a longing of the people to return to that land one day. E: clearly Mussolini gassing Ethiopia was justified because of the cultural longing to reclaim the Roman empire blah blah blah VitalSigns fucked around with this message at 11:22 on May 12, 2021 |
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May 12, 2021 11:19
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