|
Yeah, which is why that (referring to colonialist ethnic cleansing being a monstrous notion) is what you should say, instead of arguing that modern Jews have no link to the historical Levant. The former is a perfectly reasonable statement, while the latter is at best a meaningless distraction that can very easily slide into anti-Semitic conspiracy. E: Snipe, edited for clarity.
|
#
?
May 12, 2021 11:24
|
|
|
|
| # ? May 15, 2024 07:05 |
|
|
emanresu tnuocca posted:This whole thing is very stupid and I'm very tired. Bibi does very much stand to if he get's to play fuhrer instead of going to jail.
|
|
#
?
May 12, 2021 11:29
|
|
|
Nonsense posted:https://twitter.com/scottwongDC/status/1392303462319366144?s=20 Just a loving evil old lich.
|
|
#
?
May 12, 2021 13:36
|
|
|
It's honestly mind blowing how the narrative for all of Israeli social media is "the Palestinians shot rockets and we're just responding"
|
|
#
?
May 12, 2021 13:56
|
|
|
The back and forth here, with people talking past each other and putting words in the other person’s mouth really reminds me of conversations with my parents. When people say this: Zulily Zoetrope posted:Yeah, which is why that (referring to colonialist ethnic cleansing being a monstrous notion) is what you should say, instead of arguing that modern Jews have no link to the historical Levant. The former is a perfectly reasonable statement, while the latter is at best a meaningless distraction that can very easily slide into anti-Semitic conspiracy. They do not mean to say “therefore Jews and only Jews have a right to exist in the Levant.” When we say that Jews have a right to exist in the Levant, we do not mean that we have a right to form an ethnostate and cleanse the land of our enemies. I don’t care if the British started it, it’s up to the people of today to stop it. It’s not that hard, people. ... except it is that hard for the voting population of Israel, I guess. 
|
|
#
?
May 12, 2021 14:08
|
|
|
PittTheElder posted:I don't think African Americans would argue they have a right to land and a polity of their own within Africa (obviously Liberia exists but that was very much a white mans project in hopes of ridding themselves of the African Americans, so in a way quite a lot like Israel A colony founded via an alliance between some members of an oppressed minority and the racist majority that wanted a faraway place to ship them to. Destination chosen based on vague historical/cultural/religions affinity woowoo nonsense regardless of the fact that other people already lived there. Same woowoo nonsense used to justify stealing the land, oppressing and genociding the native people, and acting as bad or worse than their former oppresors, with the military backing of the sponsoring state(s). Except in Liberia the colonizers eventually lost so nobody's driven by weirdo culture war bullshit to be all "actually the Americo-Liberians were promised that land by god and who are these so-called natives anyway they must be invaders don't ask too many questions just look at how savage they are I mean we're doing them a favor really" etc etc
|
|
#
?
May 12, 2021 14:12
|
|
), but instead they have a cultural link to there. Which is something any Americanized Jewish person would probably also say. It's a very different thing than loving zionism.
|
Miftan posted:It's honestly mind blowing how the narrative for all of Israeli social media is "the Palestinians shot rockets and we're just responding" We can’t talk about how it got to the point where they started firing rockets.
|
|
#
?
May 12, 2021 14:59
|
|
|
Miftan posted:It's honestly mind blowing how the narrative for all of Israeli social media is "the Palestinians shot rockets and we're just responding" It's not that mind blowing. How many times have you heard something along the lines of "The protestor threw a rock at the police so they had to respond"?
|
|
#
?
May 12, 2021 15:19
|
|
|
Gumball Gumption posted:It's not that mind blowing. How many times have you heard something along the lines of "The protestor threw a rock at the police so they had to respond"? Yeah but this isn't "decades of racism and apartheid coming to a boil", Israel definitely shot first in a very clear incident that was covered on Israeli news and everyone had memory holed within a day.
|
|
#
?
May 12, 2021 15:21
|
|
|
Miftan posted:Yeah but this isn't "decades of racism and apartheid coming to a boil", Israel definitely shot first in a very clear incident that was covered on Israeli news and everyone had memory holed within a day. Miftan, I ask with a certain amount of knowledge of your history and experience with Israel and the IDF, does any of this actually surprise you, rather than just being shocking? I find it hard to even calibrate whether this is a genuine escalation, and if it's more like the First or Second Intifada
|
|
#
?
May 12, 2021 15:29
|
|
|
Failed Imagineer posted:Miftan, I ask with a certain amount of knowledge of your history and experience with Israel and the IDF, does any of this actually surprise you, rather than just being shocking? I find it hard to even calibrate whether this is a genuine escalation, and if it's more like the First or Second Intifada Mostly shocking, but I think, on reflection, that it's more that every time this happens I am surprised to discover via social media the amount of people I know personally and thought were good people (even on I/P!) are just bloodthirsty monsters. Actual "I don't understand why we don't just kill everyone in Gaza or enough people that they never even think about messing with us again!!" rants. It's always surreal coming across this stuff from people who I thought were better than that.
|
|
#
?
May 12, 2021 15:39
|
|
|
Rodenthar Drothman posted:The back and forth here, with people talking past each other and putting words in the other person’s mouth really reminds me of conversations with my parents. I mean anyone should have the right to exist anywhere.
|
|
#
?
May 12, 2021 15:56
|
|
|
Just when you thought Israel couldn’t get any more blatantly fascist against a dirt poor population: https://twitter.com/MariamBarghouti/status/1392472066021076995 quote:In addition to those killed, hundreds have been injured by live and rubber bullets, tear gas and beatings, but also by a weapon that is lesser known to the global media covering the protests. Many have erroneously referred to it as a water cannon or a sewage truck.
|
|
#
?
May 12, 2021 16:18
|
|
|
DarkCrawler posted:I mean anyone should have the right to exist anywhere. Yup. If you support the returning of "bloodland" to a historic nationality (as if such a thing existed) you support ethnic cleansing. Can't have nationality tied to citizenship and also do that.
|
|
#
?
May 12, 2021 16:22
|
|
|
Another apartment block is down: https://twitter.com/IntelCrab/status/1392511570522030081?s=20
|
|
#
?
May 12, 2021 17:07
|
|
|
https://twitter.com/byyourlogic/status/1392510402177687556?s=21
|
|
#
?
May 12, 2021 17:23
|
|
|
Well that is sure to de-escalate the situation, I feel so safe thanks to the valiant efforts of the IDF. gently caress everyone who supports this poo poo.
|
|
#
?
May 12, 2021 17:29
|
|
|
Is UNRWA still a good place to donate for support right now, or is the UN going hands off at the moment? Money isn't going to help this but there is gently caress all else I can do.
|
|
#
?
May 12, 2021 17:52
|
|
|
From my American perspective, it doesn't matter whether people have been in a place for 50 years or 150 years or 1,050 years, once they've been there long enough, it's not like they have any place to be sent back to. The most you can hope for is for the government of the area to be dedicated to treating people equally and respect their rights. Only the government of Israel has no interest in treating people equally, they've been very clear about only wanting to give rights to a narrowly defined ethnic group and unpersoning or killing people outside that group. It's bad.
|
|
#
?
May 12, 2021 18:44
|
|
|
Madkal posted:Same in the 90's but then someone decided to become an assassin instead of a politician. Still would have been interesting to see where the world would have gone if Rabin wasn't killed. Even Rabin supported the settlements for "security" purposes. The left wing in Israel supports the ethnic cleansing, just on a slower timeline.
|
|
#
?
May 12, 2021 18:51
|
|
|
They seem to have arrested/evicted the guy who gave the interview for CNN yesterday https://twitter.com/JalalAK_jojo/status/1392534796191031301
|
|
#
?
May 12, 2021 19:16
|
|
|
mila kunis posted:They seem to have arrested/evicted the guy who gave the interview for CNN yesterday Oh come on — what the gently caress. DTI. MLSM fucked around with this message at 19:25 on May 12, 2021 |
|
#
?
May 12, 2021 19:21
|
|
|
Don’t think the American playbook of bombing media buildings is gonna work in an age where everyone can livestream. https://twitter.com/ramabdu/status/1392506487583485952?s=21
|
|
#
?
May 12, 2021 19:51
|
|
|
I've had a general awareness of these issues since like 2008 or so but I don't have any idea of how any progress could ever be made for the people of Palestine. Are there any reasonable proposals from international groups that have even a ghost of a chance? It's been almost 2 decades of the same volatile status quo where Israeli actions provoke violent response from Hamas and then Israel brings in the military to kill 50 or 100 times as many people, with half or more being civilians. And then in a few years, the orphans of the last conflict hit the age to be recruited into the rocket crews and the cycle begins again. There doesn't seem to be any appetite among the Israeli public to vote for politicians that support Palestinian rights, and no Arab party has even been part of a coalition in Israeli history, so internal resolution seems completely impossible. Meanwhile, external interventions seem equally toothless, with Israel's status as a nuclear state and built up military making any direct conflict impossible and the US's veto power on every international body making political or economic consequences a non-starter. If the bombing of UN shelters, hospitals, and schools wasn't enough to dislodge the US's "close ally" status, is there anything that can really be done?
|
|
#
?
May 12, 2021 19:54
|
|
|
Given how hard pro-Israeli groups try to discredit it, I suspect BDS is the best vehicle for change. US support probably is key, but domestic political concerns are vastly more important to American politicians than the idea of Israel is (with the possible exception of the Evangelicals, they might be beyond hope, but there isn't enough of them) PittTheElder fucked around with this message at 19:59 on May 12, 2021 |
|
#
?
May 12, 2021 19:57
|
|
Yes, it's like a lava lamp.
|
BougieBitch posted:Are there any reasonable proposals from international groups that have even a ghost of a chance?
|
|
#
?
May 12, 2021 19:58
|
|
|
PittTheElder posted:Given how hard pro-Israeli groups try to discredit it, I suspect BDS is the best vehicle for change. The US government doesn't give a single solitary poo poo about the existence of Israel as a home for Jewish people, but they do care about having a sea-backed military ally in that area. The issue that compounds things is that the US has strong ties with Israel, but so does China to a lesser extent. If the US pulls support Israel would be happy to switch sides and that is something that is a total showstopper. BDS helps with financial pressure but if we are just talking about supplying arms then the supply will not stop.
|
|
#
?
May 12, 2021 20:10
|
|
|
BougieBitch posted:I've had a general awareness of these issues since like 2008 or so but I don't have any idea of how any progress could ever be made for the people of Palestine. Are there any reasonable proposals from international groups that have even a ghost of a chance? Most of what needs to happen is international. I mean obviously ultimately what needs to happen is on Israel, but I think it's safe to assume there is zero chance that, like apartheid south africa, Israel will ever voluntarily give up the status quo. As such, there needs to be substantial international pressure against Israel for their blatant, unambiguous violation of international law. Long-term occupation is fundamentally prohibited under every international law regime out there, and has been largely for two centuries. Even in a hypothetically legal occupation, the occupying state is legally required to provide for everything the occupied poeple need, which no one in their right mind is going to think Israel does or has any intention of doing. basically international law needs to be applied and above all the US needs to stop giving international cover to Israel. The conventional and military support also needs to stop. BDS needs to continue and expand. Politicians feet need to be held to the fire over their support for Israel. At this point there's no way for even a pause of settlements to change the course: Israel has been using their settlements as a way to carve out arable land and to steal the limited sources of irrigation water. Simply pausing settlements is nearly as bad as continuing them given how much of the productive land has already been stolen. and as cuddle cryptid points out, you run into the issue that another security council power would almost invariably step in to provide international cover
|
|
#
?
May 12, 2021 20:15
|
|
|
I mean, is it an unreasonable position to take that given the way that Palestine was organized demographically pre-WW2, that there was never a way to carve two states out of that where one couldn't de facto economically/militarily dominate or puppet the other?
|
|
#
?
May 12, 2021 20:21
|
|
|
BougieBitch posted:I've had a general awareness of these issues since like 2008 or so but I don't have any idea of how any progress could ever be made for the people of Palestine. Are there any reasonable proposals from international groups that have even a ghost of a chance? What about the current ethnic conflict nearby in ethiopia? The one with videos of soldiers summarily executing POWs with a bullet to the back of the head. And civilians taking refuge in churches being massacred. That's a rhetorical question, but I want you to think about why the IP conflict feels so much more personal to you than the Ethiopian one. It could help you understand something about your own human nature.
|
|
#
?
May 12, 2021 20:23
|
|
|
human garbage bag posted:What about the current ethnic conflict nearby in ethiopia? The one with videos of soldiers summarily executing POWs with a bullet to the back of the head. And civilians taking refuge in churches being massacred. I'm sure you are trying to point out that awareness is tied into what media chooses to cover and our personal feelings of attachment to the victimized people, but I don't like that conflict, or the one in Myanmar/Burma, or the one between Azerbaijan and Armenia, or any other one. However, in this case one side is a nuclear power with air, land, and water superiority and the other side is an open-air refugee camp. Also, this is the I/P thread, so I'm obviously not going to try to bait people into talking about other atrocities just because it is convenient rhetorically to play the "what about" game If you were going to make a comparison, it would have at least been more pertinent to bring up SA/Yemen BougieBitch fucked around with this message at 20:31 on May 12, 2021 |
|
#
?
May 12, 2021 20:28
|
|
|
human garbage bag posted:What about the current ethnic conflict nearby in ethiopia? The one with videos of soldiers summarily executing POWs with a bullet to the back of the head. And civilians taking refuge in churches being massacred. It feels more personal because the arms used to kill those Palestinians are bought, paid for, and delivered by my own tax dollars. The issue with the Gaza Strip isn't that it is unique, it's that the entire reason it exists is because international superpowers pump up the arms trade on one side of the conflict beyond all reason.
|
|
#
?
May 12, 2021 20:41
|
|
|
:nsfw: https://cdn.fro.wtf/reddit/publicfreakout/nawom4.mp4 pogrom of Arabs on live israeli TV, no idea if he survived, is showing symptoms of tbi in responses
|
|
#
?
May 12, 2021 20:45
|
|
|
edit: beaten
|
|
#
?
May 12, 2021 20:50
|
|
|
BougieBitch posted:I'm sure you are trying to point out that awareness is tied into what media chooses to cover and our personal feelings of attachment to the victimized people, but I don't like that conflict, or the one in Myanmar/Burma, or the one between Azerbaijan and Armenia, or any other one. However, in this case one side is a nuclear power with air, land, and water superiority and the other side is an open-air refugee camp. Also, this is the I/P thread, so I'm obviously not going to try to bait people into talking about other atrocities just because it is convenient rhetorically to play the "what about" game You're getting there. It's the apparent power disparity. You see an elephant fighting a honey badger. Your instincts tell you the elephant should be able to kill the honey badger easily. But it doesn't for some reason, it just kind of pushes the badger around and maybe picks it up with its trunk and throws it lightly. And the badger keeps trying to attack the elephant. Certainly the elephant would eventually get pissed off and just kill the badger, right? But you've been observing them fight for weeks, and the elephant still hasn't killed the badger. Then your prey instinct kicks in. Maybe the elephant isn't as strong as it looks? Maybe it's injured, and can't actually kill the badger. Maybe you can fight and kill the elephant for food. That's what I think is happening to Israel. By not using its full power against Gaza, it appears weak to outsiders and triggers their prey instinct, which is why you see so much more vitriole against Israel as opposed to Assad or SA. It is like a group of tribal hunters egging each other on to attack the apparently weak elephant. (USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST) (USER WAS BANNED FOR THIS POST) (USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST) (USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST)
|
|
#
?
May 12, 2021 20:51
|
|
|
gently caress off, freak
|
|
#
?
May 12, 2021 20:55
|
|
|
I do not wish to be rude but that does not seem an appropriate metaphor in any way.
|
|
#
?
May 12, 2021 20:57
|
|
|
human garbage bag posted:You're getting there. It's the apparent power disparity.
|
|
#
?
May 12, 2021 20:57
|
|
|
Israel is really restraining themselves by only destroying several blocks at a time in Gaza. If they wanted to they could probably kill every single Palestinian in a matter of weeks. It's because of this restraint that people hate Israel.
|
|
#
?
May 12, 2021 20:58
|
|
|
|
| # ? May 15, 2024 07:05 |
|
|
Human garbage has been trolling the CSPAM I/P thread too, just ignore them
|
|
#
?
May 12, 2021 21:01
|
|
