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First clear is really the big important one since you need to figure out a route that's effective for your champ and will also lead to you getting a scuttle and preferably land you near the lane you want to gank first.
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May 12, 2021 14:11
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Servaetes posted:I've been meaning to throw this into the OP but: Honestly it really feels like your first clear NEEDS to be speedrun-y to keep up. If you're not clearing roughly when scuttle spawns you can get behind really fast, especially if you and your opponent are on the same route and you end up getting double scuttled Relatedly my best Nidalee times are clearing around 3:35-3:40 and so I'm always like 20-30 seconds behind on scuttle spawn. There's so much little optimization you need to learn, and it pays to learn it since you'll use it pretty much every clear
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May 12, 2021 14:24
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Elvis_Maximus posted:Honestly it really feels like your first clear NEEDS to be speedrun-y to keep up. If you're not clearing roughly when scuttle spawns you can get behind really fast, especially if you and your opponent are on the same route and you end up getting double scuttled If you're full clearing and pathing into the enemy jungler, you should be done 3:15 or earlier, otherwise you shouldn't be full clearing. Getting double crabbed is really bad for your early tempo, it costs you 140g, river control, and 220XP, that's halfway to level 5. Particularly as Nidalee, you should look into ganking as quickly as you hit 3, or counterjungling if the other jungler is full clearing. This is actually something that maybe they'll actually upend with the coming changes, but right now full clearing defines the meta. If you can fullclear and you can do it before 3:15 there's only a few champions that can match your tempo and those will inevitably fall off. If you are able to full clear both ways before 3:15 and can correctly play when moving against and towards the enemy jungler you effectively have your first 5 minutes solved. fnox fucked around with this message at 16:09 on May 12, 2021 |
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May 12, 2021 16:06
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fnox posted:If you're full clearing and pathing into the enemy jungler, you should be done 3:15 or earlier, otherwise you shouldn't be full clearing. Getting double crabbed is really bad for your early tempo, it costs you 140g, river control, and 220XP, that's halfway to level 5. Particularly as Nidalee, you should look into ganking as quickly as you hit 3, or counterjungling if the other jungler is full clearing. Yeah, I know it's possible as I've seen videos of Nidalee players doing it. But I'm at a wall where I'm just taking like 5-6 seconds too long on raptors and krugs to get the full clear and a few seconds on the other camps here and there, which throws off everything else, so I have to pull off and head to crab early. In theory I should be able to clear it by roughly 3:20 at worst without a leash it's just hard. I think I'm missing a whole bunch of auto attacks by mistiming when I go back to human firm (or shifting when I don't need to rather than just using more cat form stuff) My understanding of jungle is that you need to complete the first clear currently rather than going for the level 3 gank otherwise the other junglers will leave you in their dust. Though this might change with the patch today?
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May 12, 2021 16:11
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Elvis_Maximus posted:Yeah, I know it's possible as I've seen videos of Nidalee players doing it. But I'm at a wall where I'm just taking like 5-6 seconds too long on raptors and krugs to get the full clear and a few seconds on the other camps here and there, which throws off everything else, so I have to pull off and head to crab early. In theory I should be able to clear it by roughly 3:20 at worst without a leash it's just hard. I think I'm missing a whole bunch of auto attacks by mistiming when I go back to human firm (or shifting when I don't need to rather than just using more cat form stuff) That applies if your ganks are not that strong, but Nidalee has scary amounts of damage early, so you should definitely be seeking to kill something and be on the map as quickly as you can, same with Lee Sin and Elise. What the patch ended up becoming is an overall nerf to jungle power, and a net buff to ganking junglers. It doesn't necessarily kill powerfarmers, but it delays them quite a bit since camps take longer to spawn. The smite changes largely benefit early gankers, as the extra smite damage means they're on the map quicker since they save a couple autos and stay healthier. Level differences are gonna matter less, and it's gonna be much harder to fully shut down a jungler due to both catchup experience and smite not scaling with levels.
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May 12, 2021 17:08
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Elvis_Maximus posted:Honestly it really feels like your first clear NEEDS to be speedrun-y to keep up. If you're not clearing roughly when scuttle spawns you can get behind really fast, especially if you and your opponent are on the same route and you end up getting double scuttled This wildly depends on mmr honestly. Clearing pixel perfect with a full clear is great but if you're not really a jungler player you can safely clear a little slower and adjust and improve from there. I think to hyper focus on it is actively detrimental to learning the role and how you interact with lanes and enemy junglers. Settle for a 5 camp clear on an aoe jungler and you'll be fine 99% of the time. And with the advent of catch up XP and jungle this speed run poo poo matters even less. Can do the Buff Gromp Buff clear hit three and start influencing the map sooner. That being said the spreadsheet is there if you want to ultra optimise a full clear but there's a decent number of them that are just 3 camp gank routes
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May 12, 2021 17:36
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Boxman posted:What’s the best place to get jungle clear paths/tutorials anyway? Reddit? Is there one for jungle mains or do you just look at the champ main sub? It’s hard to search YouTube because of how often outdated poo poo shows up. I found this the other day, it's kinda neat. https://www.jung.gg/
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May 12, 2021 20:24
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Servaetes posted:This wildly depends on mmr honestly. Clearing pixel perfect with a full clear is great but if you're not really a jungler player you can safely clear a little slower and adjust and improve from there. I think to hyper focus on it is actively detrimental to learning the role and how you interact with lanes and enemy junglers. Settle for a 5 camp clear on an aoe jungler and you'll be fine 99% of the time. ahhh, you're just saying that because you don't feel like nerding out in practice tool. If you're a gold+ jungle main (or just aspire to be), it's worth 30 minutes of your time to really really drill down clear speed with your main. Of course this doesn't matter if you're playing like, Vi or Warwick, and if you think the stupid fiddley bullshit is boring then you can play those champs. But if you want to play Lillia/Rumble/Olaf/Elise/Kindred/other champs I'm forgetting that are either ranged or can power-clear early with exact input, it's worth your time. We're not talking about the difference between a 3:01 clear and a 3:06 clear, it's like a 30-second difference for a lot of these champs. Fiddlesticks is even more exact, it took me a few hours in practice tool to get the pixel-perfect clear down (it's different on different sides of the jungle) but it's worth it if you're going to main him. I have Strong Emotions about individual rocks on the map now. If you're not spending 30 minutes practicing a clear, it's not like that time would instead be spent on a 30-minute lesson from a challenger jungle main about how to best prioritize lanes, people would just be playing one norms game and learning absolutely nothing from it.
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May 12, 2021 20:39
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Servaetes posted:I've been meaning to throw this into the OP but: Thumbtacks posted:I found this the other day, it's kinda neat. Yeah these are great. The more straight forward champs I feel like you can just sort of puzzle it out and be okay, but, like, Fiddle and Morgana have slightly unintuitive clears (even without Fiddle's pixel perfect double camps) that are really nice to see in action.
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May 12, 2021 20:39
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kingcobweb posted:ahhh, you're just saying that because you don't feel like nerding out in practice tool. See I love fiddly nerdy stuff to practice like this kinda thing. But it's like when I was first learning fighting games: it's hard to tell where I'm actually losing the time even referencing videos like the ones linked in the spreadsheets. I think I need to record myself and actually sit down and check how I'm doing each camp, where I'm killing them, what I'm losing time on. I can probably map it down to how many rotations I'm using on each camp. My current theory is that I'm losing a ton of time from cancelling autos which should be easy to fix, but it kinda tricky when I need to think about pathing so much
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May 12, 2021 20:53
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kingcobweb posted:ahhh, you're just saying that because you don't feel like nerding out in practice tool. I don't disagree that yeah for specific fiddly stupid champs that kind of intense optimization is valuable but when you're just starting out asking for ideas of what clears look like a rough outline is better than bombarding someone with all these advanced points alternatively ignore all this nerd poo poo and pick xin, do buff gromp buff and gank the gently caress out of things imo
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May 12, 2021 21:45
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i think if youre motivated to do insane things like jungle path optimization you should do it and if you arent you should not and just accept that you cant be a truly great jungler until you do. i wouldnt tell a new laner all the nuances of wave control but good players are required to know it
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May 12, 2021 21:58
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ive played for ten years and i still barely understand how freezing lanes works, i know there's a million videos about it but i just dont really care even though i should care and it impacts me frequently
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May 12, 2021 22:05
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I don't jungle because I'm not a coward
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May 12, 2021 22:13
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henkman posted:I don't jungle because I'm not a coward Jungling at my insanely bad level is the only way to get a proper 1v1 so it's for honorable duels, mostly because there's absolutely no way any of my teammates are going to help me ever no matter how far they're pushed up
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May 12, 2021 22:34
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I'd love to see a heatmap of first blood deaths on the river before the addition of the loving scuttle and after
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May 12, 2021 22:37
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Junglers are the modern day Ronin.
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May 12, 2021 22:41
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Thumbtacks posted:ive played for ten years and i still barely understand how freezing lanes works, i know there's a million videos about it but i just dont really care even though i should care and it impacts me frequently If you have 4 more caster minions on the enemy wave than yours, and the wave is right before it enters turret range, it freezes. That’s it, that’s all there is to it. So long as the 4 caster minion advantage holds (it gets fuckier with cannons), the wave will not move. It requires you to only last hit at the last possible moment for it to hold. This is another thing you can actually practice in isolation using the practice tool. I’d say it’s even more important than clears because this is something you should generally be aware of even if you’re not laning, because you want to avoid leaving a lane in a state where it can be frozen. This is why a jungler should help you push a lane to turret if it’s past the midpoint, and why you should shove the wave all the way to turret before you recall.
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May 12, 2021 22:41
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Thumbtacks posted:I found this the other day, it's kinda neat. Ugh. I couldn't find the fae sorceress anywhere at that site.
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May 12, 2021 22:47
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if you go jungle lulu you don't deserve guidance
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May 12, 2021 23:14
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Biplane posted:Junglers are the modern day Ronin.
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May 13, 2021 00:20
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Servaetes posted:alternatively ignore all this nerd poo poo and pick xin, do buff gromp buff and gank the gently caress out of things imo
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May 13, 2021 04:50
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Servaetes posted:alternatively ignore all this nerd poo poo and pick xin, do buff gromp buff and gank the gently caress out of things imo this is the true way. practice kiting buff and you can maybe get a kill *and* still make scuttle spawn
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May 13, 2021 05:20
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FractalSandwich posted:That's been my strategy coming back to the jungle, and it's worked quite well. is Xin the only one who can do this or can anyone else ?
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May 13, 2021 06:57
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a fatguy baldspot posted:is Xin the only one who can do this or can anyone else ? Nunu is good at buff > gromp > buff and then gank, it's probably Viego's optimal clear too (since he sucks at aoe camps) but I don't know if he wants to gank at level 3.
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May 13, 2021 14:27
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Elephunk posted:Nunu is good at buff > gromp > buff and then gank, it's probably Viego's optimal clear too (since he sucks at aoe camps) but I don't know if he wants to gank at level 3. Viego is more in the line of champions that can both clear quickly and gank well, so you can opt for something like a 5 camp start if there's nothing that looks easily gankable lvl 2. He can fullclear in 3:15 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nHT8BvoQECQ
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May 13, 2021 17:38
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I've personally not been too happy with Viego as a champ. He reminds me of like a fusion of Yi and Vi where he's nowhere near as durable or capable of lockdown as the latter and not as hard a carry as the former. He does however have some pretty crazy potential like Sylas depending on who he's able to possess. If the enemy team has an engage support like Naut or Leona it can get gross fast.
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May 13, 2021 19:18
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Autofill is hilarious, it's like Riot assigns me to grief my team for 30 minutes to save everyone 3 minutes in que.
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May 13, 2021 19:37
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Servaetes posted:I've personally not been too happy with Viego as a champ. He reminds me of like a fusion of Yi and Vi where he's nowhere near as durable or capable of lockdown as the latter and not as hard a carry as the former. I've had the same issue with him. He seems just so reliant on having a really good possession target available and in the shitter tier Elo that is silvers (both in ranked and normal -- christ I'm bad at this game) you don't see that a whole lot. I need to give Gwen a shot in jungle because I'm a Xin Zhao main and her kit is vaguely similar, and I've had some good fun with her in top lane just bullying people into calling their jungle to permacamp me.
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May 13, 2021 19:41
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In my experience Viego can hard carry reasonably well since his autos just slap really hard and he has a ranged stun/gap closer/invisibility with movement speed to make him annoying to lock down and can use possession to hourglass himself from death at times. Doesn't even need the other team to be good targets to control, you just hit QWE where applicable and then R to the next victim, his passive just keeps him useful for a few seconds if he falls behind greatly but your team can still make picks. He is not someone I like to see Yuumi permanently attached to on the enemy team. Ra Ra Rasputin fucked around with this message at 19:45 on May 13, 2021 |
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May 13, 2021 19:43
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Servaetes posted:I've personally not been too happy with Viego as a champ. He reminds me of like a fusion of Yi and Vi where he's nowhere near as durable or capable of lockdown as the latter and not as hard a carry as the former. I feel like this is pretty accurate, but on the other hand I will never not ban him because his passive making him untargetable for what feels like forever AND healing him is insanely annoying Seriously, it's just so frustrating to deal with him becoming intangible and refreshing his big execute ult if he gets rolling at all
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May 13, 2021 20:04
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Who else is a simpler jungle champ like Xin. I miss that sort of old style champ design
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May 13, 2021 20:07
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Olaf I guess? Run at enemy, throw axes
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May 13, 2021 20:14
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a fatguy baldspot posted:Who else is a simpler jungle champ like Xin. I miss that sort of old style champ design i've found nunu is pretty simple.. the only thing to really get used to is rolling his snowball around the map, after you get the hang of that you are golden.  **it helps that he is a very forgiving champion to play with the amount of healing he can get through his Q and his ability to run away from threats using his passive and his E. Starsfan fucked around with this message at 20:34 on May 13, 2021 |
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May 13, 2021 20:26
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Ra Ra Rasputin posted:In my experience Viego can hard carry reasonably well since his autos just slap really hard and he has a ranged stun/gap closer/invisibility with movement speed to make him annoying to lock down and can use possession to hourglass himself from death at times. Yeah not saying he's a terrible pick (looks like he's around 49% atm which is totally fine) but I'm not super impressed. When he released I was completely unafraid but he's got the potential to carry. I think Yi probably outdoes him though Ra Ra Rasputin posted:He is not someone I like to see Yuumi permanently attached to on the enemy team. This holds pretty true of any character though. A backpack that burps out gigantic heals through grievous with anything with a decent chunk of vamp gets very stupid very fast i really hate yuumi
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May 13, 2021 21:47
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say what you will about yuumi, but you have to admit she is flying around on a magic book. this fact simply can not be disputed.
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May 13, 2021 22:14
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Starsfan posted:i've found nunu is pretty simple.. the only thing to really get used to is rolling his snowball around the map, after you get the hang of that you are golden. He's a very simple, very forgiving champion that teaches you a lot of actually transferable skills. He doesn't really scale unless you build obnoxious amounts of AP, but he provides so much utility that he just needs to tank up, so that he can be the little poo poo he is running in and out of fights applying CC. His W has a surprising amount of nuance to it, going from how it's one of the few abilities that becomes a projectile if you release it, to how you can time it to disrupt all sorts of abilities, including Lee Sin's Q or Warwick's ult. This is on top of being an incredible mobility skill. I spam him every time I'm blind picking or otherwise don't know how a comp is going to end up, and he just works every time. He's also one of the few champions where Mejais is almost never a bad pick. Dark Seal is almost core on him, he gets so much value out of it. fnox fucked around with this message at 22:21 on May 13, 2021 |
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May 13, 2021 22:17
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a fatguy baldspot posted:Who else is a simpler jungle champ like Xin. I miss that sort of old style champ design Vi. Every jungler should play Vi.
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May 13, 2021 23:25
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Servaetes posted:i really hate yuumi Of all the characters released since I quit, this one seems like the worst. Annoying gameplay, stupid-looking character design, obnoxious voice. Even the ability names are stupid. "Zoomies"? Really? Why not add a pupperdoggo or big chungus champion while you're at it? Tippytaps!
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May 13, 2021 23:46
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Darke GBF posted:Why not add a pupperdoggo quote:or big chungus
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May 14, 2021 00:13
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