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Yeah most game AI is really lame and that's why I pay the money for iRacing, the PCars 2 AIs will just never feel satisfying to race against compared to real people in iRacing. But the iRacing AIs are... pretty legit. Probably the best I've experienced so far. Shine posted:I like racing against decent AI (RaceRoom is good, and iRacing, funny enough, has excellent AI), but I'll take hotlapping over lovely AI (Project CARS). Yeah same. Its cool to create a big field all the way from 40% skill up to 70% skill and then mix it up! I usually end up with a grid where I can pretend I'm super pro and carve up to 3rd from like last, but then getting those last couple positions against the high skill AIs is super hard. Zaphod42 fucked around with this message at 17:38 on May 10, 2021 |
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May 10, 2021 17:28
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I forget about iRacing AI mostly because it was so limited on release
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May 10, 2021 17:45
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They still don't cover all the tracks or all the cars, but its pretty solid. It'll be nice if/when they roll out support to the rest of the tracks though.
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May 10, 2021 17:47
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I really enjoy the iRacing AI. I'll run AI races during off hours when there is isn't anything populated that I'm interested in. I created some custom rosters with friends names so the poo poo talk can be personal.
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May 10, 2021 18:17
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I just jumped into iRacing over the weekend, exclusively in the MX-5 on Tsukuba. First sit down did about 1.5 hours, just tweaking FFB settings and getting a feel for the car. Last night got the quest 2 hooked up (and even with everything unoptimized and hitting the 45fps ASW) it was a WORLD of difference in both how I could drive the car and how much fun I was having. The depth perception gained while racing in VR helped me out SO MUCH more than I thought it would. After another hour of practice with AIs, I did my first Quali+Race (also against AI). Qualified 8th, then battled throughout the 15 min sprint race for 8th, eventually coming off track in the last corner and taking 9th. It was the most fun I've ever had racing AIs in any game, and this was just my first race. Safe to say I'll be back for much more.
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May 10, 2021 18:54
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As the thread once again drifts into iRacing Chat it's probably a good time to remind everyone we farmed that out to its own thread a while ago.
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May 10, 2021 20:54
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Useful link, although to be fair iRacing is still going to come up a lot ITT if only in discussions of comparison with other games, which is what the previous convo was.
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May 10, 2021 23:03
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Aardvark Barber posted:I just jumped into iRacing over the weekend, exclusively in the MX-5 on Tsukuba. Try to get into some actual racing with the mx-5, especially if you've now done a few full race distances you're well poised to hop right in. IMO the longer you put it off the more daunting the real racing will become, a sensation which it absolutely does not warrant. Everyone else is at the same level you are (in the mx5) and it's a lot more enjoyable than racing AI.
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May 11, 2021 05:13
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Aardvark Barber posted:It was the most fun I've ever had racing AIs in any game, and this was just my first race. Safe to say I'll be back for much more.
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May 13, 2021 03:16
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I wish that astigmatism played nicer with VR, and I also wish I didn't become a sweaty uncomfortable mess after wearing a VR headset for 30 minutes. It's stuck firmly in "cool novelty" because of that  For now though, I'll enjoy the triples I just got and call it a compromise without the inherent depth perception.
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May 13, 2021 12:25
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You could play with a fan pointed at you. Lots of people do. Doesn’t help the vision issue though
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May 13, 2021 12:35
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Jim Silly-Balls posted:You could play with a fan pointed at you. Lots of people do. Doesn’t help the vision issue though Plus one on this, with an addition that I’ve been considering cutting a hole in the plastic case on my G2 and installing a gently caress-off-huge aluminum heat sink on the back of the display. If I already look like a complete goober wearing it, I may as well be a not-sweating-as-much complete goober.
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May 13, 2021 12:48
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I can't remember which VR headset it was....either the first Vive or the first consumer version of the Rift. It had some strange design error that under certain hardware configs, a chip (IIRC soundprocessor) directly over my nose heated up so much that it would literally heat up my face so much that I couldn't use it for longer than 15 minutes. There was an unofficial fix for it that worked, no idea if it was every fixed in the official drivers. That situation reminded me of the nice little fans you could put on top of paintball goggles to stop them from fogging, and I have no idea why no VR set to this day offers such an option. Just a small little fan on top that pulls air out. Sure, it dries out your eyes and stuff, but the option would be nice to have, similar to the paintball thing. Flick a switch and let it run for couple of minutes, then flick it again to turn off.
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May 13, 2021 13:08
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I run widmovr lenses on my reverb g2 and my astigmatism is corrected just as well as with my normal glasses. Consider custom lenses! 😊
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May 13, 2021 14:18
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I have a tiny Noctua fan installed in my Index headset, using the USB port it includes. Makes lengthy sessions far more comfortable. But yeah, VR is a compromise in some respects, and there are times when I miss just using triples or a large ultrawide to not have to deal with some of VR's quirks.
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May 13, 2021 14:29
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Just got Forza Horizon 4 for giggles. Is it me or is the AI pretty terrible in regards to "fairness"? E.g. just ramming into you and poo poo, as if you're invisible. --edit: Also wheel support leaves to be wishing. No curves for pedals and poo poo. Combat Pretzel fucked around with this message at 18:48 on May 13, 2021 |
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May 13, 2021 18:46
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Combat Pretzel posted:Just got Forza Horizon 4 for giggles. Is it me or is the AI pretty terrible in regards to "fairness"? E.g. just ramming into you and poo poo, as if you're invisible. Haven't played it, but that sounds like pretty typical AI. It's really striking how much better iRacing and RaceRoom AI are, especially iRacing.
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May 13, 2021 18:49
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Combat Pretzel posted:Just got Forza Horizon 4 for giggles. Is it me or is the AI pretty terrible in regards to "fairness"? E.g. just ramming into you and poo poo, as if you're invisible. Forza is only barely a sim racing game, Horizon straight up is not. I like Horizon and play it a good bit, but its as arcadey nonsense as they come. And part of that is the AI is a joke, yeah. Even PCars 2 has better AI than Horizon. Horizon's FFB is also very poo poo, yes. The cars never feel super realistic. Still, its the closest we have to an open-world game that supports wheels. I would kill someone for a Need For Speed Underground type racer game that has iRacing's physics and AI.
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May 13, 2021 18:56
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Combat Pretzel posted:Just got Forza Horizon 4 for giggles. Is it me or is the AI pretty terrible in regards to "fairness"? E.g. just ramming into you and poo poo, as if you're invisible. the ai is supposed to be based on other real players using AI/ML magic somehow so yeah it's supposed to behave real lovely
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May 13, 2021 20:27
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Combat Pretzel posted:Just got Forza Horizon 4 for giggles. Is it me or is the AI pretty terrible in regards to "fairness"? E.g. just ramming into you and poo poo, as if you're invisible. The problem with this is that it learns from how we drive against the AI, and pretty much everyone drives like an absolute fuckbag against the AI which results in it returning the favor which then becomes a feedback loop. On the Motorsport games if you have enough friends who race online regularly you can actually end up with some clean Drivatar opponents, but it's effectively impossible on the Horizon side of the series.
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May 13, 2021 20:36
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During the campaign, races are like 3 laps long and it always starts you in the back. So you are pretty much required to drive like a complete shitlord and bash other cars out of the way in order to get to the front and win, so that trains the drivatars to drive like shitlords too. Which causes you to be more of a shitlord. It's a vicious cycle.
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May 13, 2021 20:44
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Cojawfee posted:During the campaign, races are like 3 laps long and it always starts you in the back. So you are pretty much required to drive like a complete shitlord and bash other cars out of the way in order to get to the front and win, so that trains the drivatars to drive like shitlords too. Which causes you to be more of a shitlord. It's a vicious cycle. Yeah that's another thing, they go with the Outrun style of gameplay rather than doing realistic racing with a qualifying lap or using fastest lap times to set the grid or something. Its that artificial arcadey racing game type thing. "You went from 30th place to 1st in 2 laps you're the big hero!" but that's basically anathema to how real racing works.
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May 13, 2021 20:57
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Cojawfee posted:During the campaign, races are like 3 laps long and it always starts you in the back. So you are pretty much required to drive like a complete shitlord and bash other cars out of the way in order to get to the front and win, so that trains the drivatars to drive like shitlords too. Which causes you to be more of a shitlord. It's a vicious cycle. Yeah. All of the actual difficulty in winning races in Horizon is in getting to the front of the pack, and you have to get to the front of the pack fast because of the limited total race distance and the way you always start at the very back, so you have to drive like a maniac and muscle through every crowded turn on most of the race layouts.
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May 13, 2021 21:12
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Jim Silly-Balls posted:You could play with a fan pointed at you. Lots of people do. Doesn’t help the vision issue though I do that as is with the monitors, and it didn't really help with the VR issues. Thanks for the suggestion though, it's a good one! Just unfortunately I think this one is probably not an easy solve, and I'm really happy with the triples now, so whatever. It works.
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May 13, 2021 22:01
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wolrah posted:For a few generations now Forza has had a system called "Drivatar" where it watches how players drive in-game and develops a profile of them, which is then used to run the AIs that you'll see your friends names on. --edit: Googled this Drivatar thing, conclusion is that it was time wasted. Combat Pretzel fucked around with this message at 23:08 on May 13, 2021 |
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May 13, 2021 23:01
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Combat Pretzel posted:Is it actually AI, or is it just an average of a bunch of random player driving lines that are being played back? Considering how unfazed the AI seems to be by collisions, doesn't look like there's much actual AI driving going on. They claim to be using ML to create AI profiles which then race against you; but I honestly wouldn't be surprised if that was marketing half-truths and they are just replaying bits of recorded paths or picking between them as needed. Course even if they are creating ML profiles, they could be simple enough that it doesn't matter, or even if they are really smart, if they're training off dumb data you'll get dumb bots. The whole thing seems slightly misguided to me. I don't think ML is the way to make racing AIs. At least, not training on user data. Training ML on just running hot laps to get faster while being penalized for collisions would probably make way more sense.
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May 13, 2021 23:42
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Zaphod42 posted:Training ML on just running hot laps to get faster while being penalized for collisions would probably make way more sense. You would just end up with bots that mercilessly exploit whatever weird quirks your physics engine has to get negative drag and doing physically impossible inputs and poo poo like that.
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May 14, 2021 02:47
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KillHour posted:You would just end up with bots that mercilessly exploit whatever weird quirks your physics engine has to get negative drag and doing physically impossible inputs and poo poo like that. Yeah fair point. So just back to "ML maybe not best idea for racing AI" or otherwise curate a set of fast but good drivers to train them on.
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May 14, 2021 02:53
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KillHour posted:You would just end up with bots that mercilessly exploit whatever weird quirks your physics engine has to get negative drag and doing physically impossible inputs and poo poo like that. I would actually love to see this though.
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May 14, 2021 03:59
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Wasn’t that just the idea behind Roborace?
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May 14, 2021 06:00
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VelociBacon posted:I would actually love to see this though. https://youtu.be/nKJlF-olKmg
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May 14, 2021 07:13
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FH4 is certainly interesting in regards to custom mappings. I made a new one for my wheel to leave some things undefined, so that I can for instance the fourth gear of my shifter as handbrake. What does this stupid game do? Fill in things from the default mapping. I had to remap the gears to all the buttons on the wheel I don't use anyway. Also, the G27 preset has brakes and throttles switched. Quality game. :|
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May 14, 2021 14:22
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Combat Pretzel posted:FH4 is certainly interesting in regards to custom mappings. I made a new one for my wheel to leave some things undefined, so that I can for instance the fourth gear of my shifter as handbrake. What does this stupid game do? Fill in things from the default mapping. I had to remap the gears to all the buttons on the wheel I don't use anyway. Also, the G27 preset has brakes and throttles switched. Quality game. :| it's plenty fun just use a fuckin controller. Take it for what it is: an arcadey racing game where the wheel feels like absolute poo poo, not an elite racing simulator. It's a crash n bash AI arcade racer. tater_salad fucked around with this message at 15:20 on May 14, 2021 |
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May 14, 2021 15:17
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I hate controllers immensely but yeah Horizon is a controller game, go for Forza 7 if you want to use your wheel.
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May 14, 2021 16:39
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The G27 came out 11 years ago or something, I had a G25 for a while and could never really get mad at games no longer supporting it well. I don't get pouty when my old poo poo gets dropped, it's just the way it is I guess.
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May 14, 2021 16:49
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Super interesting - thanks!
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May 14, 2021 17:48
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I sold my wheel before the series made it to PC, but I played the Xbox 360 Horizon games exclusively on my Fanatec wheel and had a great time with it. It's certainly arcadey as gently caress but that just means you calibrate your expectations accordingly.
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May 14, 2021 19:13
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I enjoy the heck out of Forza Horizon 4, and I also enjoy the heck out of my sim racing rig. The two are not designed to go together one bit. FM7 works fine with a wheel, and it's actually one of the things I played to help transition from arcadey-things into using a wheel, and I wish the sim racing community as a whole didn't poo-poo it so much because it actually works well in that role, but Forza Horizon is not at all like that. It's really not good with a wheel, although it can be fun to drive the 2015 WRX around and pretend it's my actual car. It's a lot of fun with a controller and don't try to make it something that it's not designed to be.
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May 14, 2021 19:20
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tater_salad posted:it's plenty fun just use a fuckin controller. Take it for what it is: an arcadey racing game where the wheel feels like absolute poo poo, not an elite racing simulator. It's a crash n bash AI arcade racer. Yeah and for me it's honestly kind of a relief to have a couple racing games (Dirt 5 is the same way for me) where I can just be in a relaxed position with the controller. I don't always want to get out the whole wheel frame setup and lock myself into my couch. These days I mainly use the wheel exclusively for WRC 9. Can't wait until number 10 comes out, I even tried to preorder it but they wouldn't let me because it doesn't come out for so long lol
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May 14, 2021 19:22
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Since we're talking simcade on this page, figure I should go ahead and post some stuff that's been bugging me, as a long-time lurker of this thread who's been too cowardly to go all-in on a racing wheel and sticks to casual games. I've been playing F1 2020 lately - I got it free from someone who didn't want it in their Humble Monthly, and I've been watching F1 so I figured it'd be fun to drive around the tracks I know. I really enjoy the time trials: even with a controller, I try to turn everything down as low as I can on the assists. I do use the driving line, but I've been thinking about turning it off and trying to use the "manual with suggested gears" mode instead to try to help me learn the corner speed without needing the line. All of this is in time trial mode. I loving hate actually racing in this game. They made a few awful design decisions in this game: * The practice sessions in career mode offer these cool video game-y "learn the track" missions, except they're on a loving practice session timer. There's no way to access these missions in any other mode (gently caress you if you do the shortened F2 season, by the way, hope one qualifying lap is enough for you!). You can restart a session over and over if you want, but you lose any progress in that session, which sucks. * The AI has two modes: dumb as poo poo to the point that you can't make moves on them without them driving directly into you, or just actual F1 difficulty. Listen, I play games like Forza Horizon and DIRT: the only way I know how to pass cars is by pushing them into walls. I would love to be able to play a game where I can pass people like in a real race, and have a nail biting experience trying to overtake a few cars over time by putting in lap after lap inching closer to them. OTOH, I also am bad at driving, so I'd want a game that provides lots of assists in this regard: maybe rear view mirrors I can actually see in a useful camera mode, or something like the "radar" I've seen in videos of GT Sport. This game just has worthless directional indicators. It doesn't help that F1 has no brake lights, so I don't even know when to start slowing down when I'm racing in a pack. I eventually just gave up and did my career mode as Williams and stopped trying to set good qualifying laps so I could always start in the back and not die in turn 1. * I don't really want to do like 25+ lap races, and would much rather just do like 10 or 15 laps and get in and out in half an hour. Unfortunately, this game - as far as I can tell, maybe I'm missing something - doesn't scale tire degradation to the length of the race, which means in a 10 lap race you never need to pit. This is an F1 game! Why the gently caress would you not have an option to have, say, shortened pit stops in a shortened race, to ensure you always get to have pit strategy matter! I think what I'd like, coming out of all this, is a game that has "real-ish" racing that is doable on a controller, with sensible AI, and a single player mode that's built to help you master a track over time. My dream would be to have a game where I don't feel obliged to use the racing line assist, which I think is what has made me so put off by simcade games in the last decade - I think something that tells you "brake here" makes racing feel rote as hell and removes a big chunk of skill, I want to get the feeling of actually learning a track like I used to get with Gran Turismo 4 or something. I don't actually think this game exists. GT Sport might be it, so maybe I should just dig my PS4 out of storage, but I don't know what its single player looks like. Forza 7 seems like it might be it if I can resolve whatever is causing it to crash on my PC (it's on game pass, at least, so no money lost there). Would Project Cars 2 maybe work? PC3 seemed like they were trying to make something more gamepad friendly that bridged the gap (I think it has some kind of system around that tries to gameify corner mastery, which seems like a great idea), but everyone seems to hate it. abraham linksys fucked around with this message at 20:39 on May 14, 2021 |
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