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sweet geek swag posted:Tolkien's Middle-Earth: The real answer is always that elves are assholes.
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May 14, 2021 17:12
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euphronius posted:Dark cave doesn’t sound necessarily derogatory It would to a dwarf. Their mines are bright, artisan dwellings that they can use decades shaping to perfection, not a dark cave. skasion posted:She gave him hospitality and a very significant gift when basically everyone else in town including her own retainers was loving him over, and then some guy comes along calling her a sorcerer. He’d be kind of a heel if he didn’t defend her reputation after that. Alhazred fucked around with this message at 17:28 on May 14, 2021 |
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May 14, 2021 17:25
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Is it dark cave or black pit? Or is it ambiguous?
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May 14, 2021 17:40
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Alhazred posted:I had also forgotten how incredibly thirsty Gimli is after Galadriel. In the movies there's one scene where he asks for some straws of her hair. But in the books he's constantly going on about how fair she is and even threatens to kill Eomer when he doesn't immediately agrees that she's the prettiest being in the whole of Middle- Earth. I like how in the book all the other elves are scandalized, like he asked for some of her underwear or something.
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May 14, 2021 17:50
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FBS posted:I like how in the book all the other elves are scandalized, like he asked for some of her underwear or something. It’s literally a part of her body, something only lovers or family members usually get access to. Also from a magical perspective blood hair and nails could be used to target someone specifically with ill intent and the dwarves and elves have never been very friendly.
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May 14, 2021 17:58
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SHISHKABOB posted:Is it dark cave or black pit? Or is it ambiguous? Mor in Quenya usually means plain old black and often means black in a moral sense as well, as in Moru (proto-Ungoliant, the spider of night) Morgoth, Morgul. But can just mean black or dark-colored or dark in a more morally neutral sense of obscure, as in Galadriel’s song “ar sindanóriello caita mornië i falmalinnar imbë met” “and out of a grey country darkness lies on the foaming waves between [me and Varda].” Sindarin uses this stem and also others “dû” (as in Barad-dur “dark tower”) and “fuin” (as in Taur-nu-Fuin “mirkwood”) for dark or black. All seem to be a little interchangeable but when we see blackness referred to in a non-moral sense (color of someone’s hair eg), it tends to be through the mor stem as well. The -ia bit is pretty much only found in the name of Moria, so it’s hard to assess the precise meaning. I have not found that Tolkien ever says it means “cave” specifically. Cave is Q. felco, felya, S. feleg (as in Felagund “cave hewer”) or S. groth, grod (as in Menegroth “thousand caves” or Nogrod “dwarf cave”). “Ia” as it occurs in “Moria” is variously glossed as pit, gulf, chasm, void etc.
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May 14, 2021 18:07
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Alhazred posted:I think he goes a bit far when he promises to chop his head off if Eomer doesn't say she's the most beautiful being after he has seen her. After their initial argument (which takes place before they’ve even been properly introduced) they’re just bantering about it, I don’t think Gimli was ever seriously going to give him the axe. Actually does he even threaten to kill him about it? He calls Eomer a dumbass who doesn’t know what he’s talking about and Eomer responds with by saying he’d behead him if he wasn’t so short, but I don’t think Gimli ever gets genuinely aggressive about it
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May 14, 2021 18:24
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skasion posted:After their initial argument (which takes place before they’ve even been properly introduced) they’re just bantering about it, I don’t think Gimli was ever seriously going to give him the axe. https://tolkienblog.com/books/morning-evening-gimli-and-eomer-war/ They've got the excerpt in this blog, and Legolas knocks his bow but doesnt like, aim it at Eomer. "things might have gone ill" if not for Aragorn. e: its a really good blog too, very thoughtful. SHISHKABOB fucked around with this message at 18:37 on May 14, 2021 |
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May 14, 2021 18:32
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Oracle posted:It’s literally a part of her body, something only lovers or family members usually get access to. I wouldn't know if the rest of the Lorien elves were hip to the whole Feanor thing, but Celeborn probably was. Because of how Galadriel's hair and her refusal of Feanor ties into his creation of the Silmarils, which was the driving factor behind much of the history of Middle-earth, her giving three hairs to Gimli constitutes what is probably the biggest diss of literally all time, and that's including the time Feanor told the god of evil to get the gently caress off his porch
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May 14, 2021 19:05
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Fëanor deserved it. Besides, honouring a humbled dwarf asking for a simple gift while being innocent of the connotations is a great way to say screw you to your dickhead uncle. Arc Hammer fucked around with this message at 19:12 on May 14, 2021 |
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May 14, 2021 19:10
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Phy posted:I wouldn't know if the rest of the Lorien elves were hip to the whole Feanor thing, but Celeborn probably was. Because of how Galadriel's hair and her refusal of Feanor ties into his creation of the Silmarils, which was the driving factor behind much of the history of Middle-earth, her giving three hairs to Gimli constitutes what is probably the biggest diss of literally all time, and that's including the time Feanor told the god of evil to get the gently caress off his porch fingolfin may not have been witty but calling morgoth lord of slaves in front of his boys was pretty good too
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May 14, 2021 19:27
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Arcsquad12 posted:Fëanor deserved it. Besides, honouring a humbled dwarf asking for a simple gift while being innocent of the connotations is a great way to say screw you to your dickhead uncle. Hard agree E: In case it wasn't clear I did mean the diss was on Feanor. Galadriel's clearly being very kind to Gimli even if you don't know the history. I wonder if there was a, for want of a better word, strategic aspect to it. Like, is she thinking "ok, one way or another the world is obviously going to change soon, time to start getting our peoples reconciled" Because I can absolutely believe that she would be capable of exercising realpolitik, fulfilling a lordly obligation to her guest, and dunking on Feanor all in one gesture Phy fucked around with this message at 20:08 on May 14, 2021 |
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May 14, 2021 19:47
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Currently reading the Book of Lost Tales and for some reason I'm finding it a lot easier going than the Silmarillion. Maybe it's the weird more fairy-tale like atmosphere of the whole thing, what with the Prince of Cats and the Man in the Moon and whatnot. I also like the idea of Beren and Tinuviel being a gnome and a fairy. Fantastic image. But anyway, I'm mostly posting to say JESUS CHRIST TURIN YOU COLOSSAL FUCKUP NOW WHAT HAVE YOU DONE
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May 14, 2021 21:34
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"A curse did it."
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May 14, 2021 21:51
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sweet geek swag posted:The real answer is that elves are assholes. The real answer is always that elves are assholes. IIRC in the commentary track for one of the movies they mention how everybody hated the elves on set.
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May 14, 2021 21:53
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Unkempt posted:But anyway, I'm mostly posting to say JESUS CHRIST TURIN YOU COLOSSAL FUCKUP NOW WHAT HAVE YOU DONE Everything Turin does turns to poo poo. Also having an evil sword telling you to do bad poo poo and kill yourself doesn't help.
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May 14, 2021 21:56
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Anglachel rules.
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May 14, 2021 22:10
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Arcsquad12 posted:Everything Turin does turns to poo poo. Also having an evil sword telling you to do bad poo poo and kill yourself doesn't help. Just finished it. 'O magic sword I've completely screwed up everything and everyone I ever loved is dead, please kill me now' 'OK, sure buddy, it'll be a pleasure. In fact, I've been looking forward to it.' Edit: it was pretty loving metal when he smashed that one elf's teeth in with a goblet for telling a 'Yo Mama's so dirty' joke. Unkempt fucked around with this message at 22:17 on May 14, 2021 |
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May 14, 2021 22:13
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Arcsquad12 posted:Everything Turin does turns to poo poo. Also having an evil sword telling you to do bad poo poo and kill yourself doesn't help. The sword wasn't evil (like, say, Moorcock's Stormbringer), it was just very good at killing things. Whatever being was struck by it would die, no matter how powerful. IIRC the Silmarillion (or at least one of the drafts) says that Turin would not leave the world (as humans usually do), but wait in the halls of Mandos for the return of Morgoth, and deal him a killing blow with Gurthang as his final revenge. The suicide was entirely his own decision, and the sword just agreed to it. That bit is straight out of the Kalevala: quote:Kullervo, Kalervo's offspring,
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May 14, 2021 22:24
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The sword was kind of evil. I forget if this element had already entered the story in BOLT version, but Anglachel was made by Eöl, and given to Thingol unwillingly. It’s coming from a bad place. If you want, you could consider it to be imbued with Eöl’s misanthropy (miselfthropy?) and general badness. I think Melian even tells Beleg that the sword is going to gently caress him over if he keeps it.
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May 14, 2021 22:31
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Imagine being at a dinner party with Melian. What do you even say for small talk
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May 14, 2021 22:35
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Zopotantor posted:The sword wasn't evil (like, say, Moorcock's Stormbringer), it was just very good at killing things. Whatever being was struck by it would die, no matter how powerful. IIRC the Silmarillion (or at least one of the drafts) says that Turin would not leave the world (as humans usually do), but wait in the halls of Mandos for the return of Morgoth, and deal him a killing blow with Gurthang as his final revenge. iirc the prophecy about the end days was in the manuscript that formed the core of the silmarillion, but Shristopher Tolkien for one reason or another thought it had been superceded. He eventually decided that it hadn't been, and should have been in the published Silmarillion, and admitted as much in one of the HoME volumes
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May 14, 2021 22:38
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euphronius posted:Imagine being at a dinner party with Melian. What do you even say for small talk "So are you upset that Galadriel just kind of ripped off your whole thing, or what?"
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May 14, 2021 22:39
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euphronius posted:Imagine being at a dinner party with Melian. What do you even say for small talk If the hobbits’ experience is any guide, most of elvish dinner is spent just vibin’
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May 14, 2021 22:40
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skasion posted:If the hobbits’ experience is any guide, most of elvish dinner is spent just vibin’ Yeah that’s my point exactly It would be so overwhelming
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May 14, 2021 22:41
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skasion posted:The sword was kind of evil. I forget if this element had already entered the story in BOLT version, but Anglachel was made by Eöl, and given to Thingol unwillingly. It’s coming from a bad place. If you want, you could consider it to be imbued with Eöl’s misanthropy (miselfthropy?) and general badness. I think Melian even tells Beleg that the sword is going to gently caress him over if he keeps it. When it accepts Turin's suicide request it complains that it was used to kill Beleg (its rightful owner) and Brandir (who was innocent of the things Turin accused him of).
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May 14, 2021 22:48
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Within the Frame of the story, the only conclusion is the Sword later wrote down what happened. Which is strange ?
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May 14, 2021 22:49
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euphronius posted:Within the Frame of the story, the only conclusion is the Sword later wrote down what happened. Which is strange ? Hurin is the source for the story of Turin. Remember, he was enchanted to see everything.
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May 14, 2021 22:52
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skasion posted:Hurin is the source for the story of Turin. Remember, he was enchanted to see everything. Exactly good point. lol. I forgot.
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May 14, 2021 22:53
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Really want to hear the untold story of the elven scribe who tracked down insane raging bitter cursed old ex-con Hurin to get him to tell all about how his kids hosed each other ruined their lives and committed suicide
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May 14, 2021 22:56
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I always assumed the the sword talking to Turin was, diegetically, a poetic florish rather than a strictly historical account
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May 14, 2021 23:11
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skasion posted:Hurin is the source for the story of Turin. Remember, he was enchanted to see everything. Do you think he saw how he dodged a bullet by being renamed from 'Urin'?
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May 14, 2021 23:23
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skasion posted:Yea, it was Feanor Dark elf was an insult among the noldor sure but it did not actually refer to being dark or black, it referred to not having seen the two trees.
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May 14, 2021 23:26
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Yeah isn't Eol described as having incredibly pale skin? May be totally misremembering. Also the Hurin/Turin stories are just excellent and I really need to get the Children of Hurin book. I really liked the collection of Beren and Luthien stories filling out the changes over time. E: and Anglachel might not be evil, but it is a dick. Pretty sure the text is clear that it cuts Turin on its own, leading to Turin killing Beleg. Ravenfood fucked around with this message at 23:46 on May 14, 2021 |
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May 14, 2021 23:41
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You can come up with plenty of explanations for why Eol is called the dark elf. He lives in a dark spooky wood, always wears black metal, prefers night to day, is generally kind of evil and a jerk rear end, and is a dark elf in the strict sense of not having gone to Valinor. (At one point, the only point in the published Silm text at which the term doesn’t refer to Eol, the Feanorians also refer to Thingol as a dark elf, which is obviously untrue in the strict sense and implies some fairly ugly attitudes exist between the various lineages of elves) But anyway my point is more that all the exiles are more than a little obsessed with the idea of blackness/darkness and how bad it is, which makes sense when you consider that they all defied God and did various bad things out of animus towards a guy who they literally called the Black Enemy because he stole their magic lights.
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May 14, 2021 23:53
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cheetah7071 posted:I always assumed the the sword talking to Turin was, diegetically, a poetic florish rather than a strictly historical account Does any other object in all of Middle Earth talk besides Gurthang and the troll's purse in The Hobbit? I can't remember any.
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May 15, 2021 00:03
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Ravenfood posted:Also the Hurin/Turin stories are just excellent and I really need to get the Children of Hurin book. I really liked the collection of Beren and Luthien stories filling out the changes over time. If you're into audio books Christopher Lee narrated The Children of Hurin and it is incredible. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bKHOrLqVn-o
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May 15, 2021 01:32
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Melian gives off a real Tahani Al-Jamil from the Good Place vibe
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May 16, 2021 02:48
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Is there a detailed account of the end of the First Age and start of the second, or is that just something he never got around to? I see there's a volume of the History called 'War of the Jewels' but looking at the contents, it all seems a bit thin.
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May 20, 2021 23:32
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Unkempt posted:Is there a detailed account of the end of the First Age and start of the second, or is that just something he never got around to? I see there's a volume of the History called 'War of the Jewels' but looking at the contents, it all seems a bit thin. Basically no. It's an area he never did a full treatment of.
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May 20, 2021 23:48
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