|
Demanding the AI hedge its bets seems like a reasonable thing if you assume the AI won't be able to fully leverage specialization (aka own 4+ duchies for 600 years) and that human players are eternal sharks that will buy nothing but hard counters to their neighbors.
|
#
?
May 12, 2021 16:21
|
|
|
|
| # ? May 29, 2024 16:34 |
|
|
Hedging your bets is an awful idea though given the way the counter system works. I'd much rather have different regions and cultures have different compositions even if it is suboptimal (the AI can barely fight it's way out of a paper bag now so it's not even a huge step back). This is after all the period where warfare varied a lot based on the region and cultures involved, military technological convergence is very much a 16th century thing. I'd love it if that feeling permeated into the game somehow.
|
|
#
?
May 12, 2021 17:39
|
|
Yes, it's like a lava lamp.
|
Is it really bad to hedge your bets with the counter system? Honest question. For every large stack of a certain type the mixed MMA meets, one of your types will deal 0 dmg, one of your types will deal 0 dmg but counteract an equal amount of enemy troops, one will deal full and counter, and the rest just operate as per normal. It's a wash in the end, thanks to countered troops still being able to counter other troops. I think!
|
|
#
?
May 12, 2021 18:25
|
|
|
It is very bad, because the counter effect is proportional to the numbers present. Countering applies a 45% penalty to damage output at a 1:1 ratio, to a maximum 90% penalty to damage output at 2:1 ratio. But that penalty also rapidly declines if there aren't enough of the countering unit (and the penalty takes into affect battle casualties, if all your counter units die in the first day for some reason the counter penalty dies too). So if you have 500 Horse Archers and I have 500 Armored Footmen, my AF will only do 55% damage and I'm going to have a very bad day. In the case where an AI is recruiting a hodge-podge of random poo poo though, they might have 500 Horse Archers, plus 500 Light Cav and 500 Bowmen or something, up against my 1500 armored footmen. I don't know what the exact formula is, but from experience the penalty is crazy low, like <10%. Those armored footmen will absolutely shred the combined arms formation. Therefore my conclusion for vanilla at least is that the best MaA comp is whatever has the highest damage+toughness stat (the relative value of damage vs toughness is something I've been exploring, toughness is actually really good) and you can boost with buildings (and ideally doesn't have a bunch of nasty terrain penalties, but even armored cav are fine on that front) , and then recruit only that one type. Previously I suggested doing half AF half pike, or half AF half ACav, but I now believe this is very bad. Pick one and stick to it; even if there are counter units present on the field the sheer numerical mass of your units will overwhelm the counter system specifically because the AI always uses a generalist composition.
|
|
#
?
May 12, 2021 20:10
|
|
|
Looking it up, the formula is pretty linear. Every 2 MAA counters 1 of their victim type. In your examples, those 500 horse archers removed the dps of ~250 AF. Doesn't matter if there's 500 or 1500 in the stack, 250 of them are doing 0 dps and just being hp sponges. [On paper, the percentages will vary from 55% to like 84%, which is consistent with your experiences.] Until all the horse archers die, they're still doing their job at 100% efficiency. While your AF, for example, have 500 of them countering the pikemen (or whatever), while the other 1000 don't counter anything and just fight as normal (well, sans the 250 who are countered). You're still going to win that fight since AF are generally good units for a lot of reasons but I don't think it due to the counter system. I will say that one major advantage of spamming the same unit is paradoxically hedging your bets; since the AI likes to blend, you'll always be slightly countered, but by weight of numbers the rest of your stack is unaffected. It's very consistent. **I'm basing this all on how I've seen and have been told how countering works. If there's some super subtle mechanics on how unit deaths occur that change all this I'm all ears!
|
|
#
?
May 12, 2021 20:47
|
|
|
PittTheElder posted:Hedging your bets is an awful idea though given the way the counter system works. I'd much rather have different regions and cultures have different compositions even if it is suboptimal (the AI can barely fight it's way out of a paper bag now so it's not even a huge step back). I would say that the AI should always buy their cultural MaA, and then whatever complementary one is boosted by the building that boosts their cultural. Maybe a 2:1 ratio of cultural:complementary. And I guess a stack of siege weapons as well. Then make sure they build the boosting building in every province they own. If they haven't yet unlocked their cultural MaA, they should buy the base model of that same one so that by the time they do unlock it they'll be boosted by the pre-existing buildings.
|
|
#
?
May 12, 2021 20:49
|
|
|
Serephina posted:Looking it up, the formula is pretty linear. Every 2 MAA counters 1 of their victim type. In your examples, those 500 horse archers removed the dps of ~250 AF. Doesn't matter if there's 500 or 1500 in the stack, 250 of them are doing 0 dps and just being hp sponges. [On paper, the percentages will vary from 55% to like 84%, which is consistent with your experiences.] Until all the horse archers die, they're still doing their job at 100% efficiency. While your AF, for example, have 500 of them countering the pikemen (or whatever), while the other 1000 don't counter anything and just fight as normal (well, sans the 250 who are countered). You're still going to win that fight since AF are generally good units for a lot of reasons but I don't think it due to the counter system. That strikes me as a very good way of thinking about it actually. And yeah my affinity for Armoured Footmen is largely unrelated to the counter system. They're just an exceedingly good unit with an excellent complementary building line and no terrain penalties.
|
|
#
?
May 12, 2021 20:55
|
|
|
the key is becoming Norse at some point and making as many MaA of varganian vets as you can and holding onto them forever
|
|
#
?
May 12, 2021 21:34
|
|
|
observation 1: force multipliers are exactly that, multipliers, they're nonlinear observation 2: cascaded multiplication of force multipliers engendered some of the most dramatic poo poo that has ever happened at war. thermopylae was a cascade of force multipliers: rorke's drift, agincourt, you want some agincourt poo poo observation 3: video game designers never cascade force multipliers, like the cowards that they are related observation: peeps wanna be dwarf fortress but they don't wanna do no dwarf fortress poo poo final power = var1 * constant + var2 * constant + var3 * constant is not force multipliers, final power = var1 * var2 * var3 * constant is force multipliers bob dobbs is dead fucked around with this message at 23:24 on May 12, 2021 |
|
#
?
May 12, 2021 23:09
|
|
|
I just look at what my biggest, scariest neighbor has, and build a shitload of whatever counters that, but also trebuchets. You can never have too many trebuchets.
|
|
#
?
May 12, 2021 23:43
|
|
|
Unless you do not have trebuchets. I'm still not entirely sure what an onager is but I love them now.
|
|
#
?
May 13, 2021 00:21
|
|
|
An onager is the exact thing you think of if you read the word catapult. Big torsion cable working an arm, kicks like a donkey when you fire it. A mangonel is like a trebuchet kind of, but instead of the counterweight system you're probably picturing, it's driven by a bunch of dudes all pulling on cables.
|
|
#
?
May 13, 2021 02:20
|
|
|
Raskolnikov38 posted:the key is becoming Norse at some point and making as many MaA of varganian vets as you can and holding onto them forever It's a shame that Norse culture is so good, because it makes it hard to play anything else.
|
|
#
?
May 13, 2021 05:13
|
|
|
PittTheElder posted:Big torsion cable working an arm, kicks like a donkey when you fire it.. My MaA build is usually lots of one unit (normally my culture specific one) plus one siege unit for every viable siege stack I can get with my current numbers. Is it optimal? Probably not. Do I care? Definitely not. NeverHelm fucked around with this message at 08:57 on May 13, 2021 |
|
#
?
May 13, 2021 08:29
|
|
|
binge crotching posted:It's a shame that Norse culture is so good, because it makes it hard to play anything else. This is kind of where I'm at right now, and why I'm looking into mods to change things up a bit. It'll be better later when there's more flavor packs to flesh out more regions, but for now Norse feels kind of loaded (and going native doesn't let you keep enough of your good stuff unless you go Norman).
|
|
#
?
May 13, 2021 15:56
|
|
|
How hard is a Zoroastrian run in CK3? I really haven’t spent too much time playing the game yet.
|
|
#
?
May 13, 2021 16:21
|
|
|
Magil Zeal posted:This is kind of where I'm at right now, and why I'm looking into mods to change things up a bit. It'll be better later when there's more flavor packs to flesh out more regions, but for now Norse feels kind of loaded (and going native doesn't let you keep enough of your good stuff unless you go Norman). Are Norse-Catholic or Norse-Slovanskian as powerful/flavorful as Norse-Asatru? It would make Rurik's start a lot easier if he just converted religiously and suddenly didn't have a bunch of annoyed Slovianskans (especially since a Slovianskan ruler can culture-convert Slovianskans faster!)
|
|
#
?
May 13, 2021 16:44
|
|
|
zonohedron posted:Are Norse-Catholic or Norse-Slovanskian as powerful/flavorful as Norse-Asatru? It would make Rurik's start a lot easier if he just converted religiously and suddenly didn't have a bunch of annoyed Slovianskans (especially since a Slovianskan ruler can culture-convert Slovianskans faster!) That would probably work out, though it might be tough to maintain status as the cultural head early on. If you convert your counties, you could probably maintain it after the culture split event happens (provided I understand how it works).
|
|
#
?
May 13, 2021 17:36
|
|
|
Norse-Asatru is very good if you're going to run Scandi-Elective and go warmongering all day long, which you will because obviously. That lets you avoid the Popular Opinion penalty that would otherwise threaten your vote strength.
|
|
#
?
May 13, 2021 17:41
|
|
|
I figure that in 5 or 6 years, with expansions, every culture will be fleshed out and it'll be a blast. I am thinking of this time as my time to really enjoy the Norse and work on all the achievements, because once other cultures get their moment in the sun I doubt I'll ever go back to Norse.
|
|
#
?
May 13, 2021 17:43
|
|
|
ZombieLenin posted:How hard is a Zoroastrian run in CK3? I really haven’t spent too much time playing the game yet. It's rough early on, it's a lot easier if you start as a vassal. Once you build up a power base (and have enough MaA), it's no more difficult than any other ruler that borders non-coreligionists. I personally like moving down into India, since it's so incredibly wealthy, and movement speeds are much faster than in Persia. e: zonohedron posted:Are Norse-Catholic or Norse-Slovanskian as powerful/flavorful as Norse-Asatru? It would make Rurik's start a lot easier if he just converted religiously and suddenly didn't have a bunch of annoyed Slovianskans (especially since a Slovianskan ruler can culture-convert Slovianskans faster!) It's Norse culture (or rather, the North Germanic culture group) which is so nice, so converting religion won't change that much. You lose out on the Jomsvikings, but since he starts out with the ability to create a kingdom from the start you can always create your own holy order. binge crotching fucked around with this message at 18:04 on May 13, 2021 |
|
#
?
May 13, 2021 18:00
|
|
|
binge crotching posted:It's a shame that Norse culture is so good, because it makes it hard to play anything else. I feel like CK is the one paradox expression of nationalism because they still suck rear end in EU and HOI, but in CK vikings have been king poo poo for like a decade now. Can't complain too much because I secretly wish Harald Hardråde had won at Stamford Bridge because modern english would sound way cooler if it was a west/north germanic hybrid instead of being bad french. We get a bit of cool etymology, like until vs till. Imagine how much cooler everyone would sound. Also, if we're forced to start 1066 before the norman conquest then stop making Williame li Conqueror immediately become modern english after winning, and also make the three AI kings involved not take years to decide the fight.
|
|
#
?
May 15, 2021 11:53
|
|
|
Eh I don’t think it’s nationalism. Vikings have been fetishized for a long time so from a content perspective they make sense. Even though I find the, kind of boring
|
|
#
?
May 15, 2021 12:10
|
|
|
Any way to locate an enemy army during a war? I had a 40k peasant revolt in central europe, and I can't finish it off because one of the 5k stacks sailed off, and I haven't seen it in a year or so. The leader isn't leading it either, so no "Go to location" either. Edit: Nvm I scouted a bit, and it was hiding out in southern Italy. Broken Cog fucked around with this message at 12:38 on May 15, 2021 |
|
#
?
May 15, 2021 12:34
|
|
|
Yeah, nowadays there's some kind of Viking revival. It's hard to put a finger on when and how it appeared. Like early 2000's saw Rome and Fantasy setting revival thanks to Gladiator and Lord of the Rings movies, later you had Pirates of the Caribbean starting a new trend. Vikings are probably all around thanks to the Vikings TV show, but also Marvel Thor series. I saw it most prominently with Assassin's Creed series. A lot of people had no interest in Egypt and Greece settings of previous two games and they're playing AC Valhalla mostly because of setting.
|
|
#
?
May 15, 2021 12:39
|
|
|
Or, and hear me out here, they are expanding on vikings first because they are from Sweden, and that is what they are most familiar with.
|
|
#
?
May 15, 2021 12:43
|
|
|
ilitarist posted:Yeah, nowadays there's some kind of Viking revival. It's hard to put a finger on when and how it appeared. Like early 2000's saw Rome and Fantasy setting revival thanks to Gladiator and Lord of the Rings movies, later you had Pirates of the Caribbean starting a new trend. Vikings are probably all around thanks to the Vikings TV show, but also Marvel Thor series. I saw it most prominently with Assassin's Creed series. A lot of people had no interest in Egypt and Greece settings of previous two games and they're playing AC Valhalla mostly because of setting. Uhtred Ragnarson erasure in this post
|
|
#
?
May 15, 2021 12:47
|
|
|
Being from Sweden wouldn’t make you very familiar with Viking like being from Italy wouldn’t make you very familiar with the Romans:. So no I will not entertain that idea because it’s really dumb
|
|
#
?
May 15, 2021 12:48
|
|
|
CharlestheHammer posted:Being from Sweden wouldn’t make you very familiar with Viking like being from Italy wouldn’t make you very familiar with the Romans:. So no I will not entertain that idea because it’s really dumb
|
|
#
?
May 15, 2021 12:55
|
|
|
I've been playing Halfdan in the viking age start and, uh, am I right in thinking that as long as I have the money, I should field a full stack of Varangian Veterans? Their stats look 
TorakFade fucked around with this message at 13:04 on May 15, 2021 |
|
#
?
May 15, 2021 13:01
|
|
|
Broken Cog posted:Do you really not think countries have more cultural and historical experience with their own region? Depends on the age and connection. The East has very little connection to its Greeks roots as an example. For Swedish nationalism the Baltic empires are much closer and more likely than the Vikings who weren’t even Swedish or Swedish alone
|
|
#
?
May 15, 2021 13:09
|
|
|
A lot of them were just Danes, also known as the Lesser Swamp German. Wait no that's the Dutch
|
|
#
?
May 15, 2021 14:17
|
|
|
ilitarist posted:Yeah, nowadays there's some kind of Viking revival. It's hard to put a finger on when and how it appeared. Like early 2000's saw Rome and Fantasy setting revival thanks to Gladiator and Lord of the Rings movies, later you had Pirates of the Caribbean starting a new trend. Vikings are probably all around thanks to the Vikings TV show, but also Marvel Thor series. I saw it most prominently with Assassin's Creed series. A lot of people had no interest in Egypt and Greece settings of previous two games and they're playing AC Valhalla mostly because of setting. Circa 10 years ago on the internet there was a burning question whether pirates or ninjas are cooler. Some jokers decided that answering Vikings  was the correct answer, and we are now living in the viking age because of them.
|
|
#
?
May 15, 2021 14:17
|
|
|
Also weren't the Viking invasions pretty significant historical events in western European history? Maybe not exactly on par with the Norman invasion but pretty close. I wouldn't be surprised if the future flavor packs "enhance" other such significant things, like the Mongol invasion or the Reconquista. And I hope they do ones outside western Europe too because I should be able to list more.
|
|
#
?
May 15, 2021 15:02
|
|
|
They got around
|
|
#
?
May 15, 2021 15:15
|
|
|
FreudianSlippers posted:They got around And not, as I had assumed, Florida.
|
|
#
?
May 15, 2021 16:20
|
|
|
You’d think it’d be the duchy of chudia up by archangelsk
|
|
#
?
May 15, 2021 19:02
|
|
|
The Chuds were most likely a Finnic tribe (or rather a collection of tribes) essentially proto-Estonians.
|
|
#
?
May 15, 2021 19:25
|
|
|
TorakFade posted:I've been playing Halfdan in the viking age start and, uh, am I right in thinking that as long as I have the money, I should field a full stack of Varangian Veterans? Their stats look I regret not making these, because if you start with a stack of a unit type, and change cultures, you'll keep the stack of that type. So even though I'm in Seville and have been Andalusian culture for over 200 years, I have my early stacks of Bondi and Hirdsmen.
|
|
#
?
May 15, 2021 19:41
|
|
|
|
| # ? May 29, 2024 16:34 |
|
|
CharlestheHammer posted:Being from Sweden wouldn’t make you very familiar with Viking like being from Italy wouldn’t make you very familiar with the Romans:. So no I will not entertain that idea because it’s really dumb Popular interest in Vikings in Sweden has a lot of baggage left over from its romantic nationalist movements.
|
|
#
?
May 15, 2021 23:34
|
|
