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I don't know why I'm having so much trouble grokking the V5 creation rules. There's just something about the various parts of it that seem "off" to me and I just can't quite put my finger on it. Some of it might be from me trying to make a more established/competent PC than they expect you to. Just wanna play a Ravnos narcosaint-to-be man...
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May 15, 2021 16:44
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I'm not a huge fan of how V5 relies so much on amalgam disciplines. It does a good job of reducing the amount of disciplines to keep track of, but it has the effect of constraining character concept options. Like, RAW you can't play a starting Tzimsce with Vicissitude. If you want your Tzimsce to ever learn Vicissitude, you need to give him Protean and Dominate, which disincentivizes you from putting anything into Animalism.
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May 15, 2021 17:04
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pospysyl posted:Like, RAW you can't play a starting Tzimsce with Vicissitude.
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May 15, 2021 17:21
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pospysyl posted:I'm not a huge fan of how V5 relies so much on amalgam disciplines. It does a good job of reducing the amount of disciplines to keep track of, but it has the effect of constraining character concept options. Like, RAW you can't play a starting Tzimsce with Vicissitude. If you want your Tzimsce to ever learn Vicissitude, you need to give him Protean and Dominate, which disincentivizes you from putting anything into Animalism. I was avoiding V5 because I thought what I'd heard about the lore was asinine but this is way, way worse.
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May 15, 2021 17:27
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pospysyl posted:I'm not a huge fan of how V5 relies so much on amalgam disciplines. It does a good job of reducing the amount of disciplines to keep track of, but it has the effect of constraining character concept options. Like, RAW you can't play a starting Tzimsce with Vicissitude. If you want your Tzimsce to ever learn Vicissitude, you need to give him Protean and Dominate, which disincentivizes you from putting anything into Animalism. As a non-V5 player, It sounds like the old combo discipline with a twist, except now it's mandatory if you want any cool clan-only powers.
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May 15, 2021 17:34
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That post is either wrong or misleading, any Tzimisce at any starting generation can easily get the baseline Vicissitude, even without spending the bonus XP you get for starting as Neonate or higher. All fleshcrafting falls under Protean and has a prerequisite of the Vicissitude ability. Vicissitude is a Protean 2 skill amalagm with Dominate 2. Character creation gives you 3 dots to spend on your disciplines, and your Predator type gives you a fourth dot to a specific discipline (depending on your predator type). That's 4 dots to take 2 in Dominate, 1 in Protean, and the fourth in Vicissitude. I agree that it disincentivizes you from taking Animalism, but Dominate is way more useful (arguably essential) for fleshcrafting, if you want to play a Tzim and not fleshcraft what are you even doing. You can always just take normal Protean dots if you really want.
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May 15, 2021 17:35
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GNU Order posted:I agree that it disincentivizes you from taking Animalism animalism being garbage for like 20 years is actually what disincentivizes from taking animalism really like the amalgams tbh because its neat making unorthodox poo poo like an illusionist ventrue or whatever
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May 15, 2021 17:38
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pospysyl posted:I'm not a huge fan of how V5 relies so much on amalgam disciplines. It does a good job of reducing the amount of disciplines to keep track of, but it has the effect of constraining character concept options. Like, RAW you can't play a starting Tzimsce with Vicissitude. If you want your Tzimsce to ever learn Vicissitude, you need to give him Protean and Dominate, which disincentivizes you from putting anything into Animalism. That's flat-out wrong? Vicissitude is a level 2 Protean Discipline that requires 2 dots in Dominate. Three of the dots you get for free at character creation (2 in one Discipline and 1 in the other), the fourth you get for picking a predator type. (Free dot in Protean if you pick Blood Leech, Farmer or Roadside Killer; free dot in Dominate if you pick Cleaver, Extortionist or Scene Queen). e: yeah what they said
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May 15, 2021 17:41
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GNU Order posted:That post is either wrong or misleading, any Tzimisce at any starting generation can easily get the baseline Vicissitude, even without spending the bonus XP you get for starting as Neonate or higher. You're right, I missed the predator type bonus, but my broader point that it constrains your conceptual choices still stands. Rather than committing one one or two discipline dots to Vicissitude, you need to commit literally all four, plus the associated predator type bonuses.
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May 15, 2021 17:44
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ElNarez posted:That's flat-out wrong? Vicissitude is a level 2 Protean Discipline that requires 2 dots in Dominate. Three of the dots you get for free at character creation (2 in one Discipline and 1 in the other), the fourth you get for picking a predator type. (Free dot in Protean if you pick Blood Leech, Farmer or Roadside Killer; free dot in Dominate if you pick Cleaver, Extortionist or Scene Queen). There's also a really good Dominate predator type buried in Cult of the Blood Gods, Extortionist, that was perfect for the Tzim I'm currently playing quote:The extortionist likes to force their victims to bleed for them. Ostensibly, the extortionist acquires blood in exchange for services such as security or surveillance, but as many times as the need for protection is real, it is just as often a fiction engineered to make the deal feel acceptable Would be nice if the character creation stuff was collected in one place but I imagine that's in the works
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May 15, 2021 17:46
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blood gods is great but it's organized like dogshit and there are disciplines/rituals all over the goddamn book
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May 15, 2021 17:47
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I actually really like V5's model of having a core set of "umbrella" disciplines within which there are a few weird or niche powers more easily accessible to some clans than others, like how what used to be Dementation is now a really hosed up way to use Dominate. Obviously, this can create situations where a given special power has so many prereqs that it's cumbersome to try to start with, but that's a quantitative rather than a qualitative fix.
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May 15, 2021 17:48
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Can a Tremere still summon flames then fail the rhotschreckt roll and run screaming from their own flames?
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May 15, 2021 17:52
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pospysyl posted:You're right, I missed the predator type bonus, but my broader point that it constrains your conceptual choices still stands. Rather than committing one one or two discipline dots to Vicissitude, you need to commit literally all four, plus the associated predator type bonuses. Sure but Vicissitude is pretty powerful by comparison, and the tradeoff is you either get Mesmerize and the ability to turn yourself into a siege engine, or you can talk to stray cats I would like a couple more Predator types but I don't think having your starting Discipline spread basically decided by the nature of your bloodline is the biggest sin in tabletop design, especially for the unique weird clans in the Companion
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May 15, 2021 17:53
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The V5 Companion also introduces Domitor's Favor at Dominate 2, which is basically about making your Renfields extra Renfieldy
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May 15, 2021 17:57
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The real problem here is that going 2/2 is flatly worse than going 3/1.
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May 15, 2021 17:57
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Kurieg posted:Can a Tremere still summon flames then fail the rhotschreckt roll and run screaming from their own flames? They actually brought Lure of Flames back via the Blood Gods book! It's not stupid overpowered like previous versions and it's relegated to a line of rituals. The first level gives you a bonus to fire-frenzy checks Ferrinus posted:The real problem here is that going 2/2 is flatly worse than going 3/1. Honestly I think this depends on the kind of character you're making and the disciplines being taken. I've run 2/2 before and I never really felt like I was getting jobbed or missing something.
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May 15, 2021 18:02
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Sour Diesel posted:They actually brought Lure of Flames back via the Blood Gods book! It's not stupid overpowered like previous versions and it's relegated to a line of rituals. The first level gives you a bonus to fire-frenzy checks You were missing 5 XP.
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May 15, 2021 18:18
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Ferrinus posted:You were missing 5 XP. In this case we’re talking about amalgams, and I don’t think pure math makes the argument valid because Vicissitude is much stronger than the average 2 dot discipline. That’s the reason why they’re amalgams, it’s not necessarily to restrict abilities to certain bloodlines, they’re designed to carry that cost E- and actually specifically with vicissitude you can save on XP for both yourself and your teammates by moving physical dots around to cheaply min max high levels of strength or dex GNU Order fucked around with this message at 19:04 on May 15, 2021 |
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May 15, 2021 19:00
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GNU Order posted:In this case we’re talking about amalgams, and I don’t think pure math makes the argument valid because Vicissitude is much stronger than the average 2 dot discipline. That’s the reason why they’re amalgams, it’s not necessarily to restrict abilities to certain bloodlines, they’re designed to carry that cost Yes, but if you're willing to wait a few sessions then you'll have all the exact same advantages but also 5 extra XP worth of Dominate.
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May 15, 2021 19:21
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Ferrinus posted:Yes, but if you're willing to wait a few sessions then you'll have all the exact same advantages but also 5 extra XP worth of Dominate. Ok cool then do that?
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May 15, 2021 19:27
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... are things really so loving tight in 5th Edition that 5xp is enough to squabble over? I was thinking, like, Fortitude 1 (from Roadside Killer since he'd have been nomadic before the game starts) and then either Animalism or Obfuscate 2 and Presence 1, depending on if i want Chimeristry or a coyote buddy. *edit* And lemme tell ya Chimeristry and the higher fata morgana is kinda underwhelming RAW. citybeatnik fucked around with this message at 19:35 on May 15, 2021 |
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May 15, 2021 19:30
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"is it really that bad?" is not and never has been a salient response to "this is kind of lovely game design" ultimately none of it is "that bad" because it's just a game. but that's not the question; the question is "does this add anything to game? does this optimization puzzle with a single correct answer contribute anything positive?" like as a designer you could just not do the thing that sucks and adds nothing to the game. it's not that high of a burden.
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May 15, 2021 19:33
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citybeatnik posted:... are things really so loving tight in 5th Edition that 5xp is enough to squabble over? lol no, and in fact this is like the 3rd time that there's been argument over the way you allocate dots on character creation in V5 ITT and how you're technically missing out on 5xp (3 sessions max). If you don't care about being hyper optimized then you should just take whatever you think will be fun Personally I love having pet familiars in tabletops plus they can be a free meal in a pinch GNU Order fucked around with this message at 19:39 on May 15, 2021 |
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May 15, 2021 19:37
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Nawh it's not a response it's a question. I've been meh about this system - it's a follow up to our 1940s/1960/1980 LA game that's in its final decade - but i can't tell if me not liking it comes from just not wanting something new. I mean i'm really only looking at Ravnos now due to their Bane which is bad rear end.
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May 15, 2021 19:43
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GNU Order posted:lol no, and in fact this is like the 3rd time that there's been argument over the way you allocate dots on character creation in V5 ITT and how you're technically missing out on 5xp (3 sessions max). If you don't care about being hyper optimized then you should just take whatever you think will be fun I'm pretty sure it is actually 5 sessions max. But why flush even 3 sessions' XP down the toilet? You're supposed to want XP, right? Which is why there are a bunch of game mechanics that specifically reward XP for both in-game and out-of-game actions conducive to gameplay?
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May 15, 2021 19:51
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Ferrinus posted:I'm pretty sure it is actually 5 sessions max. But why flush even 3 sessions' XP down the toilet? You're supposed to want XP, right? Which is why there are a bunch of game mechanics that specifically reward XP for both in-game and out-of-game actions conducive to gameplay? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stanford_marshmallow_experiment I'm an impatient child who wants to have fun now and build the character I want to play now e- also if you don't like it just house rule and give the character who went 2-2 a bonus xp every session until they're caught up. As a player I don't care at all about being optimized, XP is a mechanic for making my character stronger and the point of playing tabletops is to tell fun stories with my friends, you don't even need the mechanic of XP to accomplish this, who care. I like that predator type gives out a Discipline dot because it's an opinionated design choice instead of just giving every character like 50 XP and telling them to spend it however they want GNU Order fucked around with this message at 20:02 on May 15, 2021 |
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May 15, 2021 19:54
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Sour Diesel posted:animalism being garbage for like 20 years is actually what disincentivizes from taking animalism The first couple of levels of Animalism are great since they're free to use- what vampire can't find a use for animals that take orders, including Doordash for animal blood if you're in a pinch?
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May 15, 2021 19:56
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GNU Order posted:https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stanford_marshmallow_experiment Which is why the game as written does you such a disservice! If the writers really cared about you they'd have Predator Style just give you 15 discipline XP or something.
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May 15, 2021 20:02
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I admire V5's 'everybody in the coterie is the same generation' take.
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May 15, 2021 20:14
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BP/XP splits are never a good idea in a world of scaling costs but I guess it wouldn't be true to the spirit of a 30-year-old game to think about That Dragon, Math for even half a second when designing a new edition.
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May 15, 2021 20:15
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Chernobyl Peace Prize posted:BP/XP splits are never a good idea in a world of scaling costs but I guess it wouldn't be true to the spirit of a 30-year-old game to think about That Dragon, Math for even half a second when designing a new edition. They did, though! They literally did! The specialist/generalist skill dot arrays check out! It drives me up the wall.
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May 15, 2021 20:22
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I've been looking at historical era games lately. How does Requiem for Rome hold up? Does it need an update? I really don't see a lot of players interested in it but people also tell me it's good. I feel like I'm getting mixed reviews
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May 18, 2021 19:18
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To go along with Amalgm chat - i'm a little confused by the wording. Do they take up one discipline rank's powers or both?
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May 18, 2021 19:26
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citybeatnik posted:To go along with Amalgm chat - i'm a little confused by the wording. Do they take up one discipline rank's powers or both? As I can determine they're just that slot's power - Vicissitude is Protean 2's slot - but you also need Dominate 2 to be able to take it.
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May 18, 2021 19:40
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Idrin posted:I've been looking at historical era games lately. How does Requiem for Rome hold up? Does it need an update? I really don't see a lot of players interested in it but people also tell me it's good. I feel like I'm getting mixed reviews I read it recently-ish, and I thought it was great. It's very heavy on in-universe explanation, which might not be your cup of tea. But it's mostly very gameable. You'll probably need to fiddle with the clan weaknesses if you want to run it in 2e, but it's been long enough I can't offer any specific commentary off the top of my head. Other than that I'd think you could use it as-is.
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May 18, 2021 20:38
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Dawgstar posted:As I can determine they're just that slot's power - Vicissitude is Protean 2's slot - but you also need Dominate 2 to be able to take it. That's what i thought too but the wording of "For the purpose of type and other classification these powers count as belonging to both disciplines" confused me. Does that just mean that powers that let you resist Presence let you resist, say, Serpent's Gaze even though it's a Protean power?
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May 18, 2021 20:58
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citybeatnik posted:That's what i thought too but the wording of "For the purpose of type and other classification these powers count as belonging to both disciplines" confused me. Does that just mean that powers that let you resist Presence let you resist, say, Serpent's Gaze even though it's a Protean power? And it matters for resonance boosts to disciplines. Vicissitude can get a boost via Dominate or Protean sources. That makes herd management easier for tzimisce - they just need phlegmatic resonance to boost (most of) 2 disciplines.
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May 18, 2021 23:30
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citybeatnik posted:That's what i thought too but the wording of "For the purpose of type and other classification these powers count as belonging to both disciplines" confused me. Does that just mean that powers that let you resist Presence let you resist, say, Serpent's Gaze even though it's a Protean power? As far as I can tell, yes. (Although it makes sense in that case as Serpent's Gaze is very Presence-focused.) Haven't seen anywhere that says you don't get to take the prereq power as normal.
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May 18, 2021 23:55
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Has anyone run a play by post over discord? My normal group has been using facebook but every day zucc makes things more and more inconvenient. Enough of them are afraid of the forums old reputation to get accounts here, plus not having an automatic notification of a new post means they need to actively check a thread. So i'm trying discord and looking for tips on how to organize posts and make things readable.
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May 19, 2021 02:56
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