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Buckwheat Sings posted:They did for a bit. That's why you ended up with all this esports junk. Blizzard hasn't been too smart as of late as there's been a slow brain drain over the years. that's fair. I'm strictly a quickmatch player so all of that crap seems like a pointless waste of time to me  guess I am too much of a scrub.
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May 16, 2021 20:58
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cmdrk posted:given all of that, I can't imagine HOTS is all that beyond #3 or #4 as far as player counts go, with League and Dota 2 taking the top two spots. rando internet site suggests SMITE and Arena of Valor are more popular than HOTS - are they at all worth trying? Oh yeah, HOTS is super behind in the rankings despite having superior core mechanics. Of course, that could change with enough promotion and/or investment, but that's just... unlikely.
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May 17, 2021 00:48
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I honestly think part of it is that what appears to be superior core mechanics is not the same for everyone. Some people like the level of personal responsibility and choice that DOTA/Smite/League offer, and they're not wrong to do so. HotS fits well in the mix, and it should be more popular, but at its heart it's the simplified MOBA, for good or bad, and as much as I adore some of the fun stuff in it (Cho'Gall, Deathwing, Ragnaros) it absolutely needed to lean more into that wildness if it wanted to stand out. I especially think a lot of the non-standout HotS champs are really boring/simple, and that's fine but it feels less interesting to me. DotA 2 is huge because it has a lot of things to do and learn and you straight up get every hero for free.
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May 17, 2021 05:13
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I want a company that isnt blizzard to make a big move with a big marketing push that also is willing to innovate on the moba formula. Last hitting is such a pain and shared team xp, objectives, and multiple maps are incredibly good ideas too. If there was any option besides HOTS I'd probably jump ship but literally every other moba is entirely wrapped up in the stupid legacy bullshit. And it's cool that people enjoy the stupid legacy bullshit, I understand why people like last hitting even if it's a disgusting game mechanic for me. I just wish that there were other options for me.
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May 17, 2021 17:55
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I miss the "indie" mobas like awesomenauts and especially super monday night combat. I want another one of those, but with a decent number of people playing and hopefully developers that aren't so desperate they turn the game into a bitcoin miner (SMNC suffered a fate far more ignoble than it deserved)
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May 17, 2021 17:58
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The best thing about dota as a support player is the lack of healbotting and warding being so important. I much prefer supporting in dota vs hots but everything else is just worse.
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May 18, 2021 11:36
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For giggles I loaded up the DOTA wiki to see what the hero designs were like these days and I'm just... blown away by how much poo poo there is. Apparently at some point Talents were added, plus a special ability upgrade item that's a lesser version of Scepter. If you're going to steal that much poo poo from HOTS, why not go whole hog and trash the entire Item Shop instead of just stacking on top of leveling and build orders? So much of DOTA seems to be complexity for the sake of it.
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May 18, 2021 12:21
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Because it creates choices that let you choose how to play beyond just picking your hero at the start, additionally the talents work drastically differently in DotA to Heroes of the Storm. You pick 1 at level 10, 15, 20 and 25, and then at levels 26-29 you get the talents you did not previously pick. Sometimes people like complexity, that's not an odd thing to enjoy. Especially when it creates room for self-expression in build order and playstyle. Especially when build orders are not really a thing in DotA the same way they are in League, in League items are largely stat-sticks, in DotA items are ways to work around what your opponent is doing (admittedly a lot of that amounts to knowing what you want to build and why, but it's not the same thing and there's a lot of nuance to some of the choices in that system).
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May 18, 2021 12:43
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I was under the impression that DOTA still required you to choose what abilities to level (or not level), what items to buy, and what item recipes to build. Or has that changed? Also, I don't mean to knock complexity as a gameplay feature, I'm just a zealot for elegant design and accessibility. Obviously DOTA is doing something right given its success, I'm just a crotchety old man who wants designs to be Built Right™.
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May 18, 2021 12:49
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DOTA seems to be one of these things that works well in spite of all its old legacy nonsense. Denying makes zero sense in any kind of in-world way and I kind of hate it, but it adds another method and motivation to get an edge over the other team which I think is worth something.
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May 18, 2021 13:13
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Kith posted:I was under the impression that DOTA still required you to choose what abilities to level (or not level), what items to buy, and what item recipes to build. Or has that changed? DotA still has ability choices yes, and items (recipes just being pay a bit more to complete a better more efficient item). It's just that each of those has kind of been streamlined a bit. There's no "traps" anymore, although there's obviously optimal options. Especially the items have continuously had additions and changes to make them more accessible (but still requiring thought). The only truly archaic and bad mechanic in it still is denying in my opinion, which even then is meant to create moments of micro-responsibility and skill-expression and create reasons to pay attention in lane to your opponent beyond when they try and touch you. They've removed a lot of the other jankiness like what attack modifiers stack or don't stack, how stats work, some of the weirder or more macro intensive items. Ultimately, all the big moba (Smite/League/DotA/HotS) have their own charm and value, and I wouldn't want any of them to be redesigned to match the others. Although personally I prefer DotA to the others even if I don't have the time to play it as much these days. As a game designer, elegant design isn't always the same as simple or accessible design, and there's no such thing as "Built Right" for everyone, although there's definitely "Built Wrong" such that nobody enjoys it. DotA also arguably has some of the simplest designs for heroes, what with some having multiple passives (Skeleton King, Spectre) who don't require as much focus to learn, which I think is part of why the item systems can be complex. A lot of the actual hero learning is less intensive unless you're crazy and pick like, Meepo or Invoker. Ultimately I'd argue the secret to DotA Success is that a) it's the oldest and has a massive legacy, b) every hero is free from the start and the entire game is literally free to play in the true sense of the word, c) it's broad and deep in a way that several of it's competitors are not, it has a wealth of learning and discovery to be had, so those who wish to deep dive into a game are happiest with DotA, and relatedly d) it has by far the most variety in how heroes feel to play, even with HotS having stuff like Abuthur and Ragnaros and Deathwing a lot of the HotS champions are either MobA classics or really boring and basic (Garrosh springs to mind, where he was so basic people complained he wasn't Garrosh). If every HotS hero was Ragnaros/Abathur/Murky levels of clever and interesting design, it might not have been popular still, but I bet it would've made more of an impression. Lord_Magmar fucked around with this message at 13:51 on May 18, 2021 |
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May 18, 2021 13:44
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As long as we're contemplating the ifs-and-whats of the various MOBAs, the map and forced teamfight mechanics of HotS are a big turnoff to some. In LoL and DotA your skill can make a huge difference if you want to get out there and loan wolf. A lone wolf in HotS is less impactful and generally only helps to solo push/absorb minion XP when away from the map mechanics and team fights. I think some people dislike the way team fights and playing the map goals are necessary to win HotS matches. All that being said, it's really true that HotS occupies a unique place in the market with its approachability, simplification of leveling, emphasis on teamfights enforced through objective play, and simplification of the overall game curve with the rejection of legacy mechanics. It's odd that it isn't more popular. I think indeed Blizzard should have leaned into the weirdness of its overall design aesthetic to emphasis separation from other MOBAs. More characters doing more whacky stuff, and more maps with wild and diverse objectives. As was stated above there are characters in HotS that really stand out as unique, characters that are recognizable representations of classic MOBA archetypes, and a whole bunch of characters that are just sort of bland. It feels like Blizzard focused more on expanding the roster rather than coming up with new mechanics or weird interactions between characters. I also think the maps could be expanded with little or no effort, even though HotS has some pretty good variety as is. I just feel like losing some objectives are absolutely crippling (Ravenlord, badly outstripped on the Zerg map) while others are just kind of annoying (Temple Guardians, Nukes). They're hardly balanced, so why not go nuts? I think we could use more maps where losing the objective creates a massive swing like the Ravenlord. Make the objective stop the enemy from spawning two waves of minions while all of their structures take 2x damage from heroes. Make another objective where your own node spawns double minions while the enemy spawns 1/2. Design space is wide open here and if you make a BIG mistake with regard to balance you can always pull the map or go back and massively retune it and it's not going to make people nearly as mad as when you pull/rework the characters.
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May 18, 2021 13:46
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I realized last night my dream is for the HotS team to break away from Blizz and make "HotS, But Better" with a good engine and complete freedom.
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May 18, 2021 13:50
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Pedestrian Xing posted:I realized last night my dream is for the HotS team to break away from Blizz and make "HotS, But Better" with a good engine and complete freedom. This won't happen because the original HotS team doesn't work there, anymore.
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May 18, 2021 13:52
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Also realistically a huge part of the draw and hype of HotS was getting to see your favourite Blizzard character translated into something entirely unique and weird and cool to play. Which is part of the failure of Garrosh (he's extremely generic) and possibly Whitemane (she's not generic, but she doesn't do any of the things people remember her for either). I think this is also probably the biggest reason the Overwatch Heroes are a mistake for the most part. There's nothing you can do in the much more weighty and decision based MOBA/RTS screen to make it feel like you're getting to play an FPS character. Tracer suffers from this the most imo.
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May 18, 2021 13:54
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Garrosh is not generic (and certainly wasn't before his Q change). Generic doesn't get you a 90% ban rate for months. He's a really good translation of his personality but people interpreted his role in WoW as some kind of a badass so objected to it.
No Wave fucked around with this message at 13:59 on May 18, 2021 |
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May 18, 2021 13:57
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No Wave posted:Garrosh is not generic (and certainly wasn't before his Q change). He's a really good translation of his personality but people interpreted his role in WoW as some kind of a badass so objected to it. There is nothing Garrosh does that couldn't be done by any Orc in terms of aesthetic or mechanics. There is no tie in to either his industrialisation of the Horde or his actions in his actual Raid Boss (Heart of Y'shaarj, Ransacking Pandaria). His trait is from Hearthstone and is the guy in zero actual armour gaining armour. He's a poor translation of what people were expecting from Garrosh Hellscream. He's generically an Orc, not generically a MOBA Hero, his kit is fine, it just isn't very much what you expect from the character he is and what he's famous for.
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May 18, 2021 13:59
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Garrosh in HOTS is just a generic meathead rear end in a top hat who throws people around. I could put the exact same statline and kit on Cairne Bloodhoof and all I'd need to change are the tooltips and icons. Hell, I could probably keep the model animations, too.
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May 18, 2021 14:04
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Kalko posted:Back in alpha Blizzard introduced the Artifacts system, which was a grindy way to customize a hero outside the game similar to LoL's runes (a game I had never played at the time). I remember reading about Artifacts with a sinking feeling, which thankfully was short-lived because there was a huge backlash and they cancelled the idea almost immediately. HotS dodged a bullet that day, and it was one of the early signs for me that this was going to be A Good Game.
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May 18, 2021 14:08
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Lord_Magmar posted:DotA still has ability choices yes, and items (recipes just being pay a bit more to complete a better more efficient item). It's just that each of those has kind of been streamlined a bit. There's no "traps" anymore, although there's obviously optimal options. Especially the items have continuously had additions and changes to make them more accessible (but still requiring thought). Trust me, I'm well aware that there's no "Built Right" for everyone. Everyone's got different tastes and interests and needs and so on and so forth. Again, I was just being a crotchety old man and bitching because it's not the way I would've done it. That said: I don't think that DOTA needs to be completely simple, I just feel that the build system could be streamlined. When you've got Ability Level Orders and multiple Item Shops and Recipe Crafting and Item Build Orders and Talents and special Talent-esque items that work for some characters but not others, I just start thinking about how all of that can be condensed into one or two systems instead of having six or seven levels of complexity stacked on top of each other for a game whose individual matches last for at least half an hour. Lord_Magmar posted:Ultimately I'd argue the secret to DotA Success is that a) it's the oldest and has a massive legacy, b) every hero is free from the start and the entire game is literally free to play in the true sense of the word, c) it's broad and deep in a way that several of it's competitors are not, it has a wealth of learning and discovery to be had, so those who wish to deep dive into a game are happiest with DotA, and relatedly d) it has by far the most variety in how heroes feel to play, even with HotS having stuff like Abuthur and Ragnaros and Deathwing a lot of the HotS champions are either MobA classics or really boring and basic (Garrosh springs to mind, where he was so basic people complained he wasn't Garrosh). I like a lot of HOTS's simple heroes, though. For better or for worse, HOTS is extremely easy to get into because it has so many characters that are straightforward to pick up and play. Out of curiosity though, what DOTA heroes do you feel fit your threshold for "interesting" designs? Invoker is a given, I imagine.
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May 18, 2021 14:33
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Kith posted:Trust me, I'm well aware that there's no "Built Right" for everyone. Everyone's got different tastes and interests and needs and so on and so forth. Again, I was just being a crotchety old man and bitching because it's not the way I would've done it. My response is that the special items actually do work for everyone now, Aghanim's Scepter and Aghanim's Shard are straight up everyone has one, but their value is fairly different between heroes and sometimes what they provide is very specific and unique for specific and unique situations. Which is what a lot of this boils down to, yes DotA has a lot of systems for power increase (talents and ability choices are actually the same system, because the way talents work is you can pick one instead of levelling an ability and generally the orders are fairly simple max one then the next then the next and pick a talent when you can). The entire Item System becomes a fairly rote thing after some practice. Importantly, this is all built on the design principle of each thing being it's own type of power or angle of approach. Your hero is the same every game, you have the same abilities and talents, you can choose to level them in different ways to control where you want your power in a game but you'll always end up at max level with everything the hero can do by default. They're the "starter level". The items then are on top of that as a way to express what you might need or want in a game, some characters have item builds that are very necessary for them to do their job (mostly carries) and the complexity for that is dropped as a result, or their are characters who are built around managing the item system to the fullest (Tinker for example) who focus almost all their complexity into their itemisation. Neutral Items (4 of each tier, can be discovered after specific global time points) are basically just to add randomness to the game, as well as reward efficient map control and farming. That's, pretty much it. 3 layers of complexity, although each layer can be in of itself a fairly heavy thing to consider. Realistically the only one you'll spend much time thinking about is items, so it's as much memory as it is understanding. There's only 2 item shops right now, one is the standard and one is the special, most items only require stuff from the standard but the best often have one or multiple components from the special. This is to incentivise keeping map control and access to your secondary shop, or lock your opponent from accessing theirs. Basically, whilst it seems overly complex from the outside, it's mostly just a learning curve, and not one you realistically need to engage with to have fun. Every hero has a pre-suggested ability order and item order in game now (based on what is popular). I think the issue is you're increasing the number of systems by separating out parts of the systems. When realistically there's 3 systems, levelling (ability orders/talent choices), gold/shopping (items, recipes/combining), and neutral items (which is largely random anyway). Also part of it is in fact that the games last half an hour if not more. DotA is slow, it's long, a lot of that allows room for players to make decisions about the complex systems with no pressure. Compared to League or HotS where fights are fast and deadly and there's very little time to think between fights because the games are designed to get people to just keep fighting. Team fighting in Heroes of the Storm might be up to 80% of a match, whereas in DotA it's closer to 40-50% thanks to the size of the map and the general gameplay speed. Kith posted:I like a lot of HOTS's simple heroes, though. For better or for worse, HOTS is extremely easy to get into because it has so many characters that are straightforward to pick up and play. Invoker, obviously, because how he works is almost wholly unique for the genre and creates an incredibly varied hero, probably the only one in DotA I'd truly say has to think long and hard about his ability order. Meepo, because his whole control a multitude of clones who each have exactly the same abilities and strengths and weaknesses and all of them die if you gently caress up the micro once. Rubick for the sheer versatility of his spell-steal variant (other games have similar abilities, but none with the level of mastery that Rubick can showcase). Morphling who can now be any hero in the game with his ultimate. Techies, whose entire gameplay is entirely unique for the genre too. A lot of them aren't quite to the level of the Heroes of the Storm interesting though. I cannot think of anything close to Cho'gall or Deathwing in any other MOBA, and when I say Heroes of the Storm needed to lean into it's interesting and unique designs they're the examples I'm mostly speaking of. Heroes of the Storm is about playing as these blizzard characters you know and love, the game should be built around the blizzard characters getting to do their unique and cool things (which is why I'm not a fan of Garrosh/Whitemane). Lord_Magmar fucked around with this message at 14:52 on May 18, 2021 |
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May 18, 2021 14:49
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Lord_Magmar posted:My response is that the special items actually do work for everyone now Lord_Magmar posted:Invoker, obviously, because how he works is almost wholly unique for the genre and creates an incredibly varied hero, probably the only one in DotA I'd truly say has to think long and hard about his ability order. Meepo, because his whole control a multitude of clones who each have exactly the same abilities and strengths and weaknesses and all of them die if you gently caress up the micro once. Rubick for the sheer versatility of his spell-steal variant (other games have similar abilities, but none with the level of mastery that Rubick can showcase). Morphling who can now be any hero in the game with his ultimate. Techies, whose entire gameplay is entirely unique for the genre too.
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May 18, 2021 15:02
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It definitely feels like a lot of heroes suffer from “who would fit this kit?” design instead of “what kit would fit this hero?” Introducing nexus heroes is possibly one solution they tried for that but that had its own issues. Stitches, butcher, Deckard are a few that come to mind as well-inspired heroes that just really fit what you think they’d be.
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May 18, 2021 15:13
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Deckard is so fun because sometimes I hit 20 and start playing to cast as many lorenados as possible instead of winning
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May 18, 2021 15:44
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Deckard's kit is literally memes.
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May 18, 2021 15:51
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No Wave posted:The best hots kits are literally memes. Ftfy
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May 18, 2021 16:05
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I basically only lurk around here but catching up with the thread and I can't anymore with all this Garrosh disrespect  Also, I haven't really followed the PTR news, there's a long maintenance going right now, has there been word if we're seeing the Live patch today?
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May 18, 2021 17:23
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No Wave posted:Deckard's kit is literally memes. you say that like it's a bad thing Issakhar posted:I basically only lurk around here but catching up with the thread and I can't anymore with all this Garrosh disrespect i'm sorry that garrosh's kit can be stapled to pretty much anyone with muscles instead of him getting something cool + interesting like kel'thuzad or illidan or abathur or deckard cain or Issakhar posted:Also, I haven't really followed the PTR news, there's a long maintenance going right now, has there been word if we're seeing the Live patch today? patches usually happen on tuesdays or thursdays. PTR patch notes went out last tuesday, so it stands to reason that PTR goes live a week later
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May 18, 2021 17:24
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Garrosh is the most famous WoW warrior, it makes complete sense to give him a wow warrior kit and to have him serve as the representative for that class (given that it suits his personality).
No Wave fucked around with this message at 17:31 on May 18, 2021 |
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May 18, 2021 17:27
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No Wave posted:Garrosh is the most famous WoW warrior, it makes complete sense to give him a wow warrior kit and to have him serve as the representative for that class (given that it suits his personality). Kith posted:i'm sorry that garrosh's kit can be stapled to pretty much anyone with muscles
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May 18, 2021 17:34
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Hogger has the perfect kit. Fite me.
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May 18, 2021 17:39
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No Wave posted:Garrosh is the most famous WoW warrior, it makes complete sense to give him a wow warrior kit and to have him serve as the representative for that class (given that it suits his personality). Him being a Warrior is only notable because he's the Hearthstone Warrior character. Literally everything else about his character is much more interesting or worth using in his kit besides the most basic of big strong meathead stuff. Especially when Varian is equally as famous, a Warrior, and straight up chooses between all three warrior specs. In fact literally the only thing in Garrosh's kit even vaguely inspired by Warriors from WoW is his bloodthirst, everything else is just generic big guy smash and throw. Garrosh is notable for being a tactician, and a strategist beyond most Orcs ever achieve. It's his intelligence that makes him deadly, not his strength (the strength helps of course). He had the will to over-power the heart of an old god. There is so much more to him than big strong guy smash and throw. Edit: If you want the most memorable WoW character who is memorable for being a Warrior and an Orc it's Saurfang anyway, who has memetic levels of warrior badass cred and can cleave the sky with a single blow (memetically). I mean it'd still be a moderately awkward fit because Varok Saurfang absolutely deserves Darius/Axe ult, but he'd make sense with Garrosh's kit. Lord_Magmar fucked around with this message at 17:51 on May 18, 2021 |
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May 18, 2021 17:45
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Should we even expect another hero after Hogger, considering how HotS is now run by a tiny team? I could maybe see them doing a character based on a class from Diablo IV... but after that, why would they put any more work into this game?
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May 18, 2021 17:50
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ErrEff posted:Should we even expect another hero after Hogger, considering how HotS is now run by a tiny team? Honestly, yeah. It might only be one a year but we'll get more over time.
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May 18, 2021 17:52
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Raven Lord will be the next hero
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May 18, 2021 18:05
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Half of Dracula posted:Deckard is so fun because sometimes I hit 20 and start playing to cast as many lorenados as possible instead of winning Instead of winning? Whatever could you mean? 4 simultaneous lorenados IS winning.
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May 18, 2021 18:11
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Fried Watermelon posted:Raven Lord will be the next hero Considering the massive amounts of whining over Qhira, I don't think they'll ever do this.  Patch is up and doing it's thing, as well as a video about the skins.
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May 18, 2021 18:15
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Karma Guard posted:Considering the massive amounts of whining over Qhira, I don't think they'll ever do this. There was whining over Qhira? Why am I certain it was 90% thinly-veiled racism?
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May 18, 2021 18:19
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Garrosh rules eat my butt 
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May 18, 2021 18:20
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Macaluso posted:Garrosh rules eat my butt Garrosh the character does rule, that's the argument being made. His character rules, his kit has nothing to do with that character.
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May 18, 2021 18:30
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