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indigi posted:can you just listen to Harvey without reading capital. I don’t want to read capital Just read it, even a slow-reading dumbass like me managed all three volumes in a short period of time. Harvey is a useful supplement chapter-by-chapter but he's not a substitute for just reading it because Harvey isn't the Marx Pope or whatever
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May 18, 2021 16:51
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DirtyRobot posted:Yeah, probably. The fundamentals are strong!
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May 18, 2021 16:54
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Demon Semen posted:Is Harvey’s companion to capital readable by itself? I haven’t read capital in decades and I was thinking about reading it again, but if Harvey’s book is essentially just capital updated in 21st language/context, then should I just read that alone? I think it's readable stand-alone, definitely (and pretty good, too), but I wouldn't really call it an updated Capital -- he drills down on some stuff and skips over other stuff, and generally he makes pretty good choices, but you're still reading Harvey thinking about Marx rather than Marx thinking about capitalism. That said it's not like you won't get a much better understanding of capital out of it and if you like Harvey's writing I say go for it. Also I say try Capital and just skip over the boring parts. Once you get that bolts of cloth can be turned into a jacket with labor you can just skim like fifty pages.
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May 18, 2021 16:58
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Pentecoastal Elites posted:I think it's readable stand-alone, definitely (and pretty good, too), but I wouldn't really call it an updated Capital -- he drills down on some stuff and skips over other stuff, and generally he makes pretty good choices, but you're still reading Harvey thinking about Marx rather than Marx thinking about capitalism. That said it's not like you won't get a much better understanding of capital out of it and if you like Harvey's writing I say go for it. Word. I’ll plan on reading both concurrently.  Been forever since I read capital, and I never read volumes II and III. Should be interesting.I recently began reading marxist stuff again, and anti-duhring by Engels was just fantastic.
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May 18, 2021 17:00
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I'm just picking up Conditions of the Working class, is there any context I need walking into it or are the 17 prefaces on marxists.org enough?
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May 18, 2021 17:17
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Here are some of the cool things about Harvey imo: He actually gives you a sense of why Capital vol 1 is actually stylistically good. Why Marx starts with the commodity and spreads outwards from there, why he uses references to vampires and stuff, why he might repeat himself in the latter chapters, etc. Harvey actually makes you want to read the original and appreciate how Marx deals with some of the communication challenges of what he's trying to say and how Marx knows he might be willfully misunderstood by an unsympathetic reader (i.e., traditional bourgeois economy). Harvey is into geography so he's really into anything that has implications for the organization and logistics of space. A lot of capital is about "time" (the working day, etc.), but it's useful to put some emphasis on the geography, too. The book has both, but I feel like I'd miss more of the geography or "space" stuff reading it on my own, but space is really really important for its implications for imperialism. As above, Harvey obviously gives more recent examples of what Marx is talking about, but he also gives examples from "in between" the 1880s and today, like how/why Henry Ford was so obsessed with regulating the lives of his workers.
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May 18, 2021 17:21
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MeatwadIsGod posted:Just read it, even a slow-reading dumbass like me managed all three volumes in a short period of time. Harvey is a useful supplement chapter-by-chapter but he's not a substitute for just reading it because Harvey isn't the Marx Pope or whatever  but for other booksThe aversion to reading is really weird. If you don't want to read then don't read. Obviously being theory lord isn't everything and at some point you need to actually go out and make a change in the world. Without some sort of theory you end up with people claiming to be antifascists or anarchists who vote for biden and defend the democratic party. Even a smooth brained person like me can see that the world would be better if it's run by dictatorships of the proletariat. AnimeIsTrash has issued a correction as of 17:43 on May 18, 2021 |
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May 18, 2021 17:24
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for reading i recommend just reading The Man Himself, Marx is so fun, he's really witty and sarcastic at times, but sincere and he gets so passionate and disgusted with humanity, especially when he's writing on the capitalists and the immiseration of mankind read the manifesto then check out the economic and philosophic manuscripts of 1844
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May 18, 2021 17:33
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anti-theory "communists" are invariably all actually just socdems, anarchists, or some other flavor of annoying orthodox/anti-revisionist. if in the western hemisphere likely a trot whether they know it or not. dont let that be you..
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May 18, 2021 17:37
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F Stop Fitzgerald posted:anti-theory "communists" are invariably all actually just socdems, anarchists, or some other flavor of annoying orthodox/anti-revisionist. if in the western hemisphere likely a trot whether they know it or not. dont let that be you.. Seems like it's pretty hard to have a labor movement if you're weeding out most of the laborers because they don't like reading 19th century economics books
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May 18, 2021 17:42
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F Stop Fitzgerald posted:anti-theory "communists" are invariably all actually just socdems, anarchists, or some other flavor of annoying orthodox/anti-revisionist. if in the western hemisphere likely a trot whether they know it or not. dont let that be you.. Please go outside you have terminal poster brain
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May 18, 2021 17:45
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F Stop Fitzgerald posted:anti-theory "communists" are invariably all actually just socdems, anarchists, or some other flavor of annoying orthodox/anti-revisionist. if in the western hemisphere likely a trot whether they know it or not. dont let that be you.. idk about that, but all critical thinkers are anti-theory. Theory, including Marxism, is not a valid way of knowing. It is like received wisdom.
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May 18, 2021 17:49
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smarxist posted:for reading i recommend just reading The Man Himself, Marx is so fun, he's really witty and sarcastic at times, but sincere and he gets so passionate and disgusted with humanity, especially when he's writing on the capitalists and the immiseration of mankind  also if you don't want to read which personally I think is fine, this the best shortest video i see that gets at most of the core concepts: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-e8rt8RGjCM of course there's more to it, there's always more to it, the whole goddamn thing spans backwards through german idealism and adam smith and ricardo's labour theory of value and forwards through every person who decided to write about marx afterwards, but that poo poo isn't going to be of interest to most normal people Dreylad has issued a correction as of 17:53 on May 18, 2021 |
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May 18, 2021 17:49
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smarxist posted:for reading i recommend just reading The Man Himself, Marx is so fun, he's really witty and sarcastic at times, but sincere and he gets so passionate and disgusted with humanity, especially when he's writing on the capitalists and the immiseration of mankind yeah the paris manuscripts are a bit tough because they're largely unedited but they're decent. 18th brumaire is good if you don't mind half the thing being basically recaps of every stupid political controversy of the second republic.
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May 18, 2021 17:51
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Reading theory? I'd rather be sucking on some juicy tits instead.
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May 18, 2021 17:51
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Good Soldier Svejk posted:Seems like it's pretty hard to have a labor movement if you're weeding out most of the laborers because they don't like reading 19th century economics books not everyone has to read them. but there is an anti-intellectual tendency among those who want to disregard them completely so that we may flounder about and spend years rediscovering what those who came before already experienced, analyzed, and wrote about
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May 18, 2021 17:55
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AnimeIsTrash posted:Reading theory? I'd rather be sucking on some juicy tits instead. *nods head, whispers under breath* hell yeah, dude
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May 18, 2021 17:55
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Celot posted:idk about that, but all critical thinkers are anti-theory. Theory, including Marxism, is not a valid way of knowing. It is like received wisdom. I'm with Bakhtin in thinking that life is a dialogue and you learn more about the world and yourself by engaging with it and the people in it. Treating Marx/theory as a touchstone is a monologic way of interacting with the world that ignores that 200 years of poo poo has happened since that may better inform ways of engaging with other humans in building a better world for our common happiness.
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May 18, 2021 17:56
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Theory is useful to introducing thinking in specific ways or upon subjects, but it is not a replacement for thinking. More useful I think is discussion.
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May 18, 2021 17:58
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AnimeIsTrash posted:Reading theory? I'd rather be sucking on some juicy tits instead. juicy tits are praxis 
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May 18, 2021 17:58
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smarxist posted:this Marx guy had some good ideas, i'm finding that a lot of his frameworks for analyzing societal phenomena still resonate today 200 years later It’s no good on the whole. He says a lot of stuff that we agree with because we are leftists and it’s our intuition that owners don’t produce poo poo and communism would be good. But these are not scientific or falsifiable things. The framework is also a bad way of viewing the world. If you take as a given that everything is class struggle / material conditions, you get absurd bullshit. Like take ISIS for example. If Marx’s framework were valid, we would expect ISIS to be secular communists. But they’re not just motivated by class struggle, they actually are insane religious nuts. The Marxist lens either results in absurdities or is so vague that it can explain anything and its negation.
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May 18, 2021 17:59
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Good Soldier Svejk posted:Treating Marx/theory as a touchstone is a monologic way of interacting with the world that ignores that 200 years of poo poo has happened since that may better inform ways of engaging with other humans in building a better world for our common happiness. no serious person does this, this version of "theory" only exists of the minds of people who make up every excuse to disregard it.
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May 18, 2021 18:00
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AnimeIsTrash posted:Reading theory? I'd rather be sucking on some juicy tits instead. sure but books are the only one you're able to get your hands on
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May 18, 2021 18:01
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Celot posted:It’s no good on the whole. He says a lot of stuff that we agree with because we are leftists and it’s our intuition that owners don’t produce poo poo and communism would be good. But these are not scientific or falsifiable things. da marx understander
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May 18, 2021 18:01
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Celot posted:The framework is also a bad way of viewing the world. If you take as a given that everything is class struggle / material conditions, you get absurd bullshit. ?????????
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May 18, 2021 18:02
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May 18, 2021 18:02
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smarxist posted:for reading i recommend just reading The Man Himself, Marx is so fun, he's really witty and sarcastic at times, but sincere and he gets so passionate and disgusted with humanity, especially when he's writing on the capitalists and the immiseration of mankind Recently finished Lenin’s book the proletarian revolution and the renegade Karl kautsky and holy poo poo that man was a good writer. He really, really makes you feel such a visceral disgust & revulsion towards frauds like kautsky and what a total bourgeois scam parliamentary democracy is and its institutions altogether
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May 18, 2021 18:03
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Celot posted:It’s no good on the whole. He says a lot of stuff that we agree with because we are leftists and it’s our intuition that owners don’t produce poo poo and communism would be good. But these are not scientific or falsifiable things. lmao
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May 18, 2021 18:04
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The middle east has gotten rid of all class and only has struggles based on religion now. One weird trick Marx didn't expect.
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May 18, 2021 18:04
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as someone who is obviously VERY well informed in middle eastern politics,
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May 18, 2021 18:06
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there is simply no way to explain conflict in the middle east using historical materialism. can't do it. wrap it up marxailures
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May 18, 2021 18:07
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Celot posted:
Wait, why?
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May 18, 2021 18:07
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Islamic Socialists of Iraq and Leninism
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May 18, 2021 18:07
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really queer Christmas posted:The middle east has gotten rid of all class and only has struggles based on religion now. One weird trick Marx didn't expect. Looks like you made up a post to respond to
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May 18, 2021 18:07
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i really do urge people to just read capital itself, together with comrades if possible. it does help to know that marx is writing much of it in a defensive mode such that he's predicting and preemptively disarming bad-faith objections that his liberal contemporaries might have to various points
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May 18, 2021 18:08
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if Marx was right why don’t I have a girlfriend
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May 18, 2021 18:09
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Celot posted:Like take ISIS for example. If Marx’s framework were valid, we would expect ISIS to be secular communists. But they’re not just motivated by class struggle, they actually are insane religious nuts. Religion is actually just the newest evolutionary form of rabies and anyone who tries to explain violence as a result of extreme poverty and oppression is actually dumb.
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May 18, 2021 18:09
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Celot posted:Looks like you made up a post to respond to Celot posted:If Marx’s framework were valid, we would expect ISIS to be secular communists. But they’re not just motivated by class struggle, they actually are insane religious nuts.
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May 18, 2021 18:09
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Greg Legg posted:Wait, why? because establishing an islamic state has nothing to do with responding to material conditions or if it does, then marxism can explain everything and its negation
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May 18, 2021 18:09
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Celot posted:because establishing an islamic state has nothing to do with responding to material conditions ?
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May 18, 2021 18:10
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