(Thread IKs:
dead gay comedy forums)
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Ferrinus posted:not for no reason are male engineers the demographic most vulnerable to radicalization into ISIS And that reason is not material conditions either.
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May 18, 2021 21:15
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Celot posted:And that reason is not material conditions either. Yes it is!
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May 18, 2021 21:16
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ram dass in hell posted:Yes it is! Personality is not a material condition. Neither is believing in Islam.
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May 18, 2021 21:17
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Celot posted:Russia went secular. right, because there were actually important differences in material conditions despite similarities. for instance, the west had not been systematically annihilating all of russia's secular, socialist forces for the past five decades, so when the time came for religious and secular forces to fight it out for russia's future the secular forces just had more boots on the ground. "what kind of movements will develop" and "which movement will win" are separate questions, both of which marxism certainly has something to say about, but a similarity in the former does not necessitate a similarity in the latter an idealist conception of history, on the contrary, might claim that ISIS won out in the middle east while the black hundreds lost in russia because islam somehow makes you more fearsome or popular than christianity. this, however, is ridiculous
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May 18, 2021 21:18
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Celot posted:Russia went secular. How are you not getting that in either case, the lower class was taken in by the group promising better living conditions. There is no presupposition that strife is going to result in a religious uprising, it's going to be the people who are getting poo poo on siding with whichever group promises them material improvement (in some cases that's a church, sometimes it's revolutionaries, etc) The pattern of rebellious action holds but the forces which create the lovely conditions are not the same so why would the response be the same?
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May 18, 2021 21:19
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Celot posted:Personality is not a material condition. Neither is believing in Islam. but your socioeconomic stratum and training ARE material conditions. neither engineering nor ISIS are personality quirks
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May 18, 2021 21:19
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this happens every loving time theres a qcs thread
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May 18, 2021 21:20
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engineers are just that way, probably the result of their peculiar brainpan
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May 18, 2021 21:22
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Good Soldier Svejk posted:There is no presupposition that strife is going to result in a religious uprising, it's going to be the people who are getting poo poo on siding with whichever group promises them material improvement (in some cases that's a church, sometimes it's revolutionaries, etc) Material conditions are worse under ISIS than under a colonial government.
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May 18, 2021 21:22
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Ferrinus posted:but your socioeconomic stratum and training ARE material conditions. neither engineering nor ISIS are personality quirks Ah I forgot everything is a material condition, including one’s mental state. What a great theory!
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May 18, 2021 21:23
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what even is this argument? Marxism is a body of work that has been developed by millions of people over centuries, who have all emphasized or tinkered with different laws of motion laid out in Capital in order to build different analytical models that can answer specific political-economic questions (“make predictions” lol). Celot no offense but your understanding of Marx sounds like it came from listening to some deranged post modern grad student rant for a half hour while you were high
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May 18, 2021 21:23
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Never believe that anti-Semites are completely unaware of the absurdity of their replies. They know that their remarks are frivolous, open to challenge. But they are amusing themselves, for it is their adversary who is obliged to use words responsibly, since he believes in words. The anti-Semites have the right to play. They even like to play with discourse for, by giving ridiculous reasons, they discredit the seriousness of their interlocutors. They delight in acting in bad faith, since they seek not to persuade by sound argument but to intimidate and disconcert. If you press them too closely, they will abruptly fall silent, loftily indicating by some phrase that the time for argument is past
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May 18, 2021 21:25
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Celot posted:Ah I forgot everything is a material condition, including one’s mental state. What a great theory! i literally just agreed with you. you said "personality is not a material condition." i said "but [other things] ARE material conditions." so no, not everything is a material condition, and, therefore, not everything is relevant (or at least decisive as opposed to a post-hoc tiebreaker) to the development of class conflict. for instance, whether local religious radicals are christian or muslim does not matter
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May 18, 2021 21:25
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Celot posted:Ah I forgot everything is a material condition, including one’s mental state. What a great theory! it's true, the soul exists in some other realm governed by the four fundamental forces: spleen, bile, idiocy and horny
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May 18, 2021 21:26
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in our heads we have our religion, our reason, our logic, and our libidos. on the stock ticker, we see the material conditions. never the two shall meet
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May 18, 2021 21:27
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Celot you are still yet to explain what makes Russia in 1917 and Iraq/Syria in 2014 comparable. What are the shared material conditions that make them acceptable as a like-for-like comparison to test Marxism's predictive power? Can you see any significant material differences other than the presence of a majority Islamic population between these two situations? You're treating these two wildly divergent historical circumstances as if it's the same thing as performing a chemistry experiment in a laboratory under controlled conditions twice and getting a different result.
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May 18, 2021 21:27
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QUEER FRASIER posted:what even is this argument? Marxism is a body of work that has been developed by millions of people over centuries, who have all emphasized or tinkered with different laws of motion laid out in Capital in order to build different analytical models that can answer specific political-economic questions (“make predictions” lol). Marx lays out some stuff and you either agree with it or you don’t, but you can’t predict anything with it or falsify it. You can use it as a lens to analyze history, and you get some wonky results. The laws of motion are made up. No offense but you guys sound like Biblical literalists or literature analysis people or something, not critical thinkers.
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May 18, 2021 21:27
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Celot posted:Material conditions are worse under ISIS than under a colonial government. That's only a refutation if you think ISIS is an end state
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May 18, 2021 21:27
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You see, you need not know how the clock works, or know its mechanisms, or even know that it has mechanisms at all for it to function What you need to for this clock to work, and I cannot stress this enough, is Marxism
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May 18, 2021 21:28
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vyelkin posted:Celot you are still yet to explain what makes Russia in 1917 and Iraq/Syria in 2014 comparable. What are the shared material conditions that make them acceptable as a like-for-like comparison to test Marxism's predictive power? Can you see any significant material differences other than the presence of a majority Islamic population between these two situations? You're treating these two wildly divergent historical circumstances as if it's the same thing as performing a chemistry experiment in a laboratory under controlled conditions twice and getting a different result. They’re both poor and hosed up by war. I think you can’t make a good prediction based on this.
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May 18, 2021 21:30
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Celot posted:Marx lays out some stuff and you either agree with it or you don’t, but you can’t predict anything with it or falsify it. You can use it as a lens to analyze history, and you get some wonky results. The laws of motion are made up. That's true. A real critical thinker would say that russia in 1917 and iraq in 2013 would end up the same way.
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May 18, 2021 21:30
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mila kunis posted:That's true. A real critical thinker would say that russia in 1917 and iraq in 2013 would end up the same way. Nope.
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May 18, 2021 21:31
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this started funny but ended up pretty tiresome. don't we have a thread ik or something or is it only for enforcing r-word useage
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May 18, 2021 21:32
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Celot posted:They’re both poor and hosed up by war. I think you can’t make a good prediction based on this. you absolutely can. you can predict, for instance, that militant religious movements will gain prominence
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May 18, 2021 21:32
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eh, this one has gone from the "just asking questions" phase to the "I'm not touching you" explicit trolling
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May 18, 2021 21:33
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Celot posted:Marx lays out some stuff and you either agree with it or you don’t, but you can’t predict anything with it or falsify it. You can use it as a lens to analyze history, and you get some wonky results. The laws of motion are made up. there’s like, reams of serious economic literature devoted to proving (or attempting to falsify) Marxist concepts like the tendency of the rate of profit to fall, or the labor theory of value, and using them to understand different political-economic phenomena you’re dumb as hell lol
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May 18, 2021 21:33
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Ferrinus posted:you absolutely can. you can predict, for instance, that militant religious movements will gain prominence Not from material conditions, no. You can predict it from the fact that a large fraction of the people are militant religious fundamentalists.
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May 18, 2021 21:33
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Good Soldier Svejk posted:eh, this one has gone from the "just asking questions" phase to the "I'm not touching you" explicit trolling You’re welcome to post your objections.
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May 18, 2021 21:34
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Celot posted:Not from material conditions, no. You can predict it from the fact that a large fraction of the people are militant religious fundamentalists. incredible
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May 18, 2021 21:34
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what the hell do you think gives fringe factions a foothold if conditions are fine in a country?
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May 18, 2021 21:34
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Good Soldier Svejk posted:what the hell do you think gives fringe factions a foothold if conditions are fine in a country? People being insane.
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May 18, 2021 21:35
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F Stop Fitzgerald posted:incredible Let me guess, people’s religious belief is a material condition. Everything is a material condition, and everything is predicted. Great theory.
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May 18, 2021 21:36
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Celot posted:Not from material conditions, no. You can predict it from the fact that a large fraction of the people are militant religious fundamentalists. well, no. was a "large fraction" of ba'athist iraq militant religious fundamentalists? how about of pre-soviet russia? it's precisely material conditions that allows these already-existing social movements to gain steam, because suddenly the radical social transformations they've been offering all along begin to look appetizing to an increasing fraction of the populace
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May 18, 2021 21:36
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How come marxism didn't predict the Bernie campaign eating poo poo
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May 18, 2021 21:36
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My material conditions are making me the joker baby
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May 18, 2021 21:36
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Celot posted:People being insane. lol
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May 18, 2021 21:36
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I'm glad the mass hysterias across Russia led to revolution in the end
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May 18, 2021 21:37
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Celot posted:People being insane. Nice to know that ISIS was just a result of the disease of the Arab mind
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May 18, 2021 21:37
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Celot posted:They’re both poor and hosed up by war. I think you can’t make a good prediction based on this. well I'm glad to see you've really thought this through
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May 18, 2021 21:37
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Celot posted:People being insane. this is an excellent example of idealist thinking as set out in On Contradiction, and also why ableism is undialectical
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May 18, 2021 21:37
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