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ninjewtsu posted:i like how the tragos floats and we don't see float technology anywhere else in the show It just uses regular Hovercraft technology to do that, it's not using anything particularly fancy to hover
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May 18, 2021 05:19
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ninjewtsu posted:i like how the tragos floats and we don't see float technology anywhere else in the show It was interesting when I noticed that every suit in IBO floats. Makes them move pretty differently from grunts in most other settings.
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May 18, 2021 05:25
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drrockso20 posted:It just uses regular Hovercraft technology to do that, it's not using anything particularly fancy to hover do we see hovercraft technology elsewhere in the show? what is "regular" about hovercraft technology
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May 18, 2021 05:40
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It really exists.
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May 18, 2021 05:43
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ninjewtsu posted:do we see hovercraft technology elsewhere in the show? We can build hovercraft right now in the real world, including very large scale heavy hovercraft. Hell, the Tragos in particular actually looks vaguely like a real life hover vehicle, with a broad base and big skirts. Kanos fucked around with this message at 05:54 on May 18, 2021 |
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May 18, 2021 05:45
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Was it a regular thing in 1995? I didnt realize hovering robots were just a yeah whatever thing
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May 18, 2021 05:49
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ninjewtsu posted:Was it a regular thing in 1995? I didnt realize hovering robots were just a yeah whatever thing https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rYIPAa0Tupc
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May 18, 2021 06:00
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ninjewtsu posted:Was it a regular thing in 1995? I didnt realize hovering robots were just a yeah whatever thing They've been around since the 1950's and been used for military applications since 1961, the Soviets in particular made some huge ones that show the concept would carry over to something Mobile Suit sized pretty easily
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May 18, 2021 06:01
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Neat!
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May 18, 2021 06:02
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ninjewtsu posted:Was it a regular thing in 1995? I didnt realize hovering robots were just a yeah whatever thing Hovercraft have been around for like 50 years. For a while they were a major way of ferrying people across the English Channel, for example! Robots in general aren't a yeah whatever thing but it stands to reason that if we can figure out how to make a big rear end boat hover over land we could probably figure out how to make a big robot do it if there was some advantage to be gained by doing so. They've just fallen out of really common use in real life because they're basically huge maintenance hogs that are prone to damage to the skirts and also have a lot of side problems like being loud as gently caress. efb
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May 18, 2021 06:02
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chiasaur11 posted:It was interesting when I noticed that every suit in IBO floats. Doms have always done the hover skating act since 0079 but they tend to be be exception. Now I won't be able to watch IBO without seeing them zoom around like they have invisible Knightmare Frame roller blades. Something I like about Zeta is how often suits use thrusters while doing land battles. Nemos tend to bunny hop around the battlefield rather than just using their legs and running. Zakus do it a few times in the original show but it feels like more of a Zeta thing that you don't see much elsewhere.
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May 18, 2021 06:52
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Jackie changed ran over a guy with a hovercraft
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May 18, 2021 08:49
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My Tragos is full of eels.
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May 18, 2021 15:28
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Okay, I feel like I'm going down a checklist but I've watched the original 79 series, Origin, Zeta, Char's Counterattack, 08th MS Team, 0080, and 0083. Should I bother going back to watch ZZ or go on to Unicorn and Thunderbolt? I skipped it in my first run through because everything I heard wasn't very encouraging and didn't have much to do with any of the characters from the other series besides Kamille getting his sanity back. Eventually I'll get around to watching Wing again, but really everything I remember about that show is that the models were more fun.
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May 19, 2021 02:12
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Zz is referenced a ton by unicorn, so if you got thru all those other series you should push thru zz.
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May 19, 2021 02:18
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As Nero Danced posted:Okay, I feel like I'm going down a checklist but I've watched the original 79 series, Origin, Zeta, Char's Counterattack, 08th MS Team, 0080, and 0083. Should I bother going back to watch ZZ or go on to Unicorn and Thunderbolt? I skipped it in my first run through because everything I heard wasn't very encouraging and didn't have much to do with any of the characters from the other series besides Kamille getting his sanity back. You can do Thunderbolt now but if you intend to watch both ZZ and Unicorn watch ZZ first since it will make one of the central characters of Unicorn have some good callbacks.
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May 19, 2021 02:18
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As Nero Danced posted:Okay, I feel like I'm going down a checklist but I've watched the original 79 series, Origin, Zeta, Char's Counterattack, 08th MS Team, 0080, and 0083. Should I bother going back to watch ZZ or go on to Unicorn and Thunderbolt? I skipped it in my first run through because everything I heard wasn't very encouraging and didn't have much to do with any of the characters from the other series besides Kamille getting his sanity back. A major character in Unicorn's backstory comes from ZZ, so you might want to see ZZ first, or at least get a primer. Thunderbolt's pretty short, so I'd recommend just watching it whenever.
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May 19, 2021 02:23
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Ok I'll give it a shot this weekend, thanks!
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May 19, 2021 02:23
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Unicorn seems to call back to ZZ more than any other UC Gundam actually, so deff watch it first.
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May 19, 2021 02:46
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I only recently watched the OG UC trilogy myself and frankly ZZ was my favourite of the 3.
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May 19, 2021 03:22
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The thing ZZ has going for it is that It's not Anime.
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May 19, 2021 03:29
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So I've been playing Gundam Breaker 3 a lot lately, I've just been in a gundam mood since watching IBO I guess and I've never really watched Gundam X before and between some idle curiosity in that, and the fact that the Virsago looks a lot like wing's Epyon I've come around to really wanting to see it just to know what's going on in that series. So what's the consensus on it? I never really hear about it; is it just boring and no one talks about it? Or is it bad so people try not to bring it up?
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May 19, 2021 07:21
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It's Good and you're in the cool club if you like it. EDIT: It definitely suffers for being pruned short at the end but there is a lot to like and definitely deserved a full run more than some other 50 episode shows. It also has two of the best opening songs and one of the most baffling hotel lounge singer ending themes too. jackhunter64 fucked around with this message at 07:38 on May 19, 2021 |
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May 19, 2021 07:30
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Arcsquad12 posted:The thing ZZ has going for it is that It's not Anime. It's real life. Also, watching the conclusion to SEED's special editions and the original Gundam's final episodes at the same time. SEED, as expected, does not do well in the comparison. To start, the original Gundam does a better job of making its villains understandable. Gihren is an explicitly stated patricidal Hitler wannabe, but he takes actions that make sense when you consider his character. Char, Kycilia, Degwin, you can understand them as people, even when they're really lovely people. SEED, meanwhile, has its faction leaders just go full genocide, even when it contradicts their other claimed goals. Azreal yells about stopping GENESIS even if it gets his troops killed, but then he turns around and yells for the PLANTs to be nuked instead of using them to stop the death ray aimed at Earth. Meanwhile, Patrick Zala is, well, aiming a death ray at Earth. The point is the cycle of hate, but when the villains are set at 11 from when we first see them, it's hard to feel like it's an escalation instead of the CE just having a lot of people who wake up in the morning going "I want to commit some atrocities." Even the Titans feel more grounded in their atrocities, more like characters than like thematic props. Kira, meanwhile, fails in his role as a thematic counter, even when he's given a slow pitch right over the plate. His duel with Rau (which is just a side thing to Athrun and Cagalli actually trying to save the Earth) revolves around their contrasting views on humanity, with Rau thinking humans are all terrible, while Kira disagrees. One key bit of Rau's view is that Kira will inevitably inspire envy once he's understood, that nothing good can come from his struggles because of his inherent nature. Which is when Flay shows up. Now, again, this is an easy beat. Flay started as someone driven purely by hatred and vengeance, but her relationship with Kira and the crew of the Archangel changed her and made her unable to fit in with Blue Cosmos or the other monsters of the age. She's in the shuttle, and she convinces the pilot to take a shot to save Kira, a coordinator, at the expense of their lives. The fight pivots on Kira having a positive impact, on people being more than their worst impulses. Philosophy as physical force, classic shonen. Only instead, she dies because Kira's incompetent, and her Newtype Ghost shows up to tell Kira he's swell, which makes him angry enough to win without refuting Rau's arguments. (It's telling that his "even so!" isn't presented like Banagher's, a rebuttal in itself. It's basically a concession that Kira's wrong, but he's going to fight anyway.) Kira never does anything to refute Rau. All he does is kill him. Meanwhile, although I like Zala getting shot by one of his own men in theory, the fact that the guy who shot him was dying already takes some of the weight out of it. It also makes the heroic commando raid feel less impressive when the heroes just arrive to find the villain already dying, even if they have to stop Genesis from firing themselves. (Contrast with Char only killing Kycilia since Sayla got through to him in the duel with Amuro.) And I can go on, from aesthetic decisions like the Meteors being bad to the weightlessness of most of the death to the dull fight choreography. SEED is just not as good as the show it mimicked. (Unrelated to SEED, in the final episode of the original Gundam, it's Kai who grabs Sayla and pulls her onto the shuttle. Then she calls him by name, and they stare into each other's eyes for a second. Meanwhile, Sayla can't find Amuro with her Newtype powers, while the orphans can. There's definitely a lot more support for Sayla and Kai than Sayla and Amuro in the original series, which was kind of a surprise when watching it.) Nuebot posted:So I've been playing Gundam Breaker 3 a lot lately, I've just been in a gundam mood since watching IBO I guess and I've never really watched Gundam X before and between some idle curiosity in that, and the fact that the Virsago looks a lot like wing's Epyon I've come around to really wanting to see it just to know what's going on in that series. So what's the consensus on it? I never really hear about it; is it just boring and no one talks about it? Or is it bad so people try not to bring it up? It's... okay. Got cancelled early, flopped in the ratings, model kits sold badly, but it's got likable characters and some people really go for its surprisingly optimistic tone. I was pretty lukewarm on the episodes I saw, but you can do much worse.
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May 19, 2021 07:32
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I'm usually more a fan of the grim and dour gundams, but I'll give it a go. I really dig the Virsago's design so I want some context for that.
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May 19, 2021 08:02
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Nuebot posted:So I've been playing Gundam Breaker 3 a lot lately, I've just been in a gundam mood since watching IBO I guess and I've never really watched Gundam X before and between some idle curiosity in that, and the fact that the Virsago looks a lot like wing's Epyon I've come around to really wanting to see it just to know what's going on in that series. So what's the consensus on it? I never really hear about it; is it just boring and no one talks about it? Or is it bad so people try not to bring it up? I'm mixed on X cause it has some really fun episodes and one of the best romances in the franchise (funny how actually making it a focus of the show will do that) but as mentioned the ending is very abrupt and also I have some issues with its themes.
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May 19, 2021 09:32
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Gaius Marius posted:I gotta say Sally Po is pretty good character for someone I don't remember at all, this is also the first Episode without Relena. Unless you count Heero hallucinating her when he wakes up. Sally never pilots a mobile suit that I recall, but she's always the character I think is the cool female soldier that people think of Noin as and don't see the fuss over Noin personally. Noin might as well be a stalker, and almost everything she does in the show is done not because she thinks it's a good idea, but because she thinks Zechs would want it. Which culminates in her going to stand by Zechs' side while telling him that she's okay with him inciting a huge war if she can be with him. Sally is a much smaller figure in the show, but she's at least her own person and does what she does because she thinks it's a good idea for it's own sake rather than because Wufei (who is the main character she interacts with if I recall), thinks it's a good idea or something. Gaius Marius posted:Zechs is insane. Mueller massacred surrendering soldiers, but I'm rebuilding the Wing so we're pretty much the same level of repulsive Zechs is obviously a Char clone, but one notable difference between Zechs and Char is that while Char wraps himself in the guise of a great person while ultimately being quite petty, Zechs wants to be a bad person but ultimatley isn't and his better nature wins out. When Relena interrupts his duel against Heero in Antarctica, he shouts that he'll show her how ugly war is or something for instance. He was forcing himself to be or become a symbol of everything bad because he thought it necessary to be that in order to achieve something. Which culminates in him leading White Fang in an attempt to incite the largest war in history in order to show everyone else the horror of war. Then the other Gundam pilots defeat him, showing him that he can achieve something without being the awful person he thinks he must be. He probably didn't think he was as bad as Mueller so much as he wanted to think of himself of as bad as Mueller so he could do the things he thought necessary. chiasaur11 posted:Contrast with Char only killing Kycilia since Sayla got through to him in the duel with Amuro. The read I got on that was that Sayla didn't really get through to Char, honestly. When she enters the room and shouts at Amuro and Char to stop, they both either ignore her or just don't hear her at all, and while Char stabs Amuro in the shoulder, Amuro stabs Char in the faceplate of his helmet. At which point the only reason that Char doesn't die is because the tip of the sword breaks off after penetrating the faceplate and instead just grazes his forehead before falling. If it had penetrated even an inch deeper though, it's likely Char would have died. Now he has no weapons left to attack Amuro after failing to kill him with a mobile suit, a gun and a sword while nearly dying in the process. Ultimately I think that's what stopped him. Not that Sayla had been thrown across the room by an explosion to get in the middle of their duel, but that he had just barely escaped death and had nothing left to attack with. Plus, Lalah's ghost spoke to at least Amuro in the midst of all that, and Amuro immediately invokes her name when shouting at Char. It''s possible Char heard her too, but either way I think Sayla was at best just one part of a whole. Plus, I just don't think Char learned anything in that moment. He gave up on revenge against Amuro because of a combination of factors, then literally seconds later he's given the opportunity to kill Kycilia for the vengeance he'd put aside to try and defeat Amuro for 15 or so episodes after coming back into the plot just before Jaburo, and decides he can't pass that opportunity up. So he tells Sayla to forget him, and then goes off to kill Kycilia instead of trying to escape with his sister. chiasaur11 posted:It's... okay. Got cancelled early, flopped in the ratings, model kits sold badly, but it's got likable characters and some people really go for its surprisingly optimistic tone. The show didn't really flop in the ratings. Not originally, at least. It achieved an average of 3.5% ratings share in the Kanto region (i.e. the main region of Japan, which contains Tokyo) for the first 26 episodes, to Gundam Wings 4.3% average share. Which is a downgrade, but not hugely worse and Victory and G both had lower ratings than Wing too, at 3.9% average and 4.1% average respectively. It's timeslot was changed after episode 26 from Friday at 5pm to 6am Saturday morning, at which point the average ratings fell off a cliff to an average 1.2% for the last 10 or so episodes. Which is not remotely surprising, really, given what time it was on. It's known that the reason for the change was because the main broadcaster requested it rather than because Sunrise lost confidence, but the reason why they requested it isn't quite so clear. It is however suspected that it's because Rupert Murdoch was buying out the channel at the time, so they were axing lower rated shows in order to make themselves look better, that Murdoch ordered it after coming in or something along those lines. There's a bit more detail on this page, but we'll probably never know the real reason. What we do know though is that Meijin Kawaguchi clarified in interview that X only had 20% lower gunpla sales than Wing, which isn't even that much worse. He feels they did lose some people due to the similiarity in design language, but that they also pulled back some fans from G among other things. So X was less successful than Wing, but not by a huge margin either in terms or ratings or gunpla. tsob fucked around with this message at 12:37 on May 19, 2021 |
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May 19, 2021 12:23
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Zechs is absolutely a bad person. He's a self-absorbed and extremely stupid psychopath who makes everyone's life worse with revenge plots and trying to be a Great Man who will permanently reshape society. The only difference between him and Treize is that he idolises (a fantasy of) what the Gundam pilots represent as perfect soldiers rather than the nobility of the masses dying in trenches. They're both content to see lots of people die, including themselves, for an idea that never ever had any possibility of being successful.
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May 19, 2021 12:53
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Oh, I agree Zechs is ultimately a bad person and if it came across otherwise then it's just bad wording on my part. Maybe it'd be better to say that Zechs sees bad people as the one who can achieve change, presumably because bad people and organizations killed his family and destroyed his country; so Zechs makes himself a bad person to achieve change. Which absolutely involved doing bad things, and even the worst thing he could imagine i.e. creating a huge war that'd engulf the entire Earthsphere. He was doing it for what seemed noble intentions to himself, but he was still doing it all the same. Which is a bit different to Char. Char was doing bad things for petty reasons, but telling people the reason was noble and good. Zechs was doing bad things for stupid reasons (seriously...using war to make people sick of war?) but acknowledging they were bad while telling people they were for noble reasons to convince himself as much as anyone. As with Char though, Zechs spends a bit of his life fighting for noble purposes and you can see the good person he could be because of that time. Or even reflected in how others treat him while he was in Oz. Char died, but Zechs lived and in living realized the error of his previous viewpoint and was given the chance to become that better person he could be as well as to make some efforts to make up for his past sins. Which he starts doing as a Preventer in Endless Waltz. tsob fucked around with this message at 13:10 on May 19, 2021 |
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May 19, 2021 13:08
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Being a hero of alliance/OZ/specials soldiers isn't a mark in anyone's favour. Crazed military fetishists the lot of them.
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May 19, 2021 13:12
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Nuebot posted:So I've been playing Gundam Breaker 3 a lot lately, I've just been in a gundam mood since watching IBO I guess and I've never really watched Gundam X before and between some idle curiosity in that, and the fact that the Virsago looks a lot like wing's Epyon I've come around to really wanting to see it just to know what's going on in that series. So what's the consensus on it? I never really hear about it; is it just boring and no one talks about it? Or is it bad so people try not to bring it up? Gundam X is very blah. A lot of the designs feel like cheap Wing knock offs (edit: made even worse by the fact it followed Wing as the next Gundam AU), the plot doesn't really find traction until right before its cancelled and the finish is really rushed. The first 20 something episodes are so flavor of the week, annoying recurring do nothing villains, that by time they kinda kick it into gear and it gets potentially interesting, its over because they got cancelled for their bland start. It's a neat setting in so far as AU Gundam goes, but I don't really think it does a very good job of anything if I'm honest. The soundtrack is meh, the fight choreography is meh, the story is again very muddled and aimless for most of the establishing stretch. It's just very mediocre Gundam, entirely skippable imo. ZZ is umm tonally very different. Some folks love the wacky chill space adventures that the first half of the show or so comprises (i didn't and don't especially as a direct follow on to Zeta) and while I think the back half is really good stuff...you gotta get through about 30 episodes of NOT MY GUNDAM before you get to anything of value or meaning to the larger UC narrative. If ZZ had kept the Zeta tone for its entire run time I think what it does have going on could have been the best Gundam, instead you only get about 18-22 episodes of the best Gundam and ~30 something episodes of YMMV. The Notorious ZSB fucked around with this message at 16:08 on May 19, 2021 |
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May 19, 2021 15:46
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The Notorious ZSB posted:Gundam X is very blah. A lot of the designs feel like cheap Wing knock offs (even thought X aired before Wing), the plot doesn't really find traction until right before its cancelled and the finish is really rushed. Just a small correction that X aired after Wing not before. (I also really like some X suits)
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May 19, 2021 15:56
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You could always watch ZZ and skip Unicorn Or at least, skip the last Unicorn movie. It ain't worth it.
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May 19, 2021 16:03
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Sam Sanskrit posted:Just a small correction that X aired after Wing not before. Ah you got me and it makes it worse! I forgot the order, but I guess G Gundam is that first AU and has a bunch of proto wing designs floating around the finale. Maybe it's more notable that SEED took I think big inspiration from the hyper specific load outs of the X Gundam series as a design ethos for the opening 5 suits that get jacked.
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May 19, 2021 16:09
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Shinjobi posted:You could always watch ZZ and skip Unicorn Episode 7 or Narrative? Because former one is eh, but at least comprehensible (if tripping on its face during the ending) while the other one is blah and butchered by the same schizophrenic hackjob editing that killed Twilight Axis.
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May 19, 2021 16:09
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Arcsquad12 posted:Episode 7 or Narrative? Because former one is eh, but at least comprehensible (if tripping on its face during the ending) while the other one is blah and butchered by the same schizophrenic hackjob editing that killed Twilight Axis. Both 7 is disappointing in a big way, Narrative just sucked
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May 19, 2021 16:15
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Shinjobi posted:Both I'm honestly not sure what could have saved the ending to Unicorn. When you set up a literal mystery box like that to drive your plot the reveal is always going to be a letdown from the expectations of your imagination. The fact that the reveal was incredibly stupid on top of being a letdown was just the icing. One thing I did like about the ending, small as it is, is Full Frontal's reaction to the reveal. A broken shell who gave up his humanity to be a symbol realizing his struggle was pointless and then deciding to go "ah gently caress it" is the most relatable and typical Zeon reaction possible. loving space nazi only knew how to fight, in the end.
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May 19, 2021 16:20
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I could have forgiven a lot in Unicorn if it didn't off the only character I found even the slightest bit compelling. Banagher had his moments earlier in the series, then went full bland to finish it up. Agree on the Full Frontal bit, but too little too late by then.
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May 19, 2021 16:31
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Arcsquad12 posted:I'm honestly not sure what could have saved the ending to Unicorn. When you set up a literal mystery box like that to drive your plot the reveal is always going to be a letdown from the expectations of your imagination. The fact that the reveal was incredibly stupid on top of being a letdown was just the icing. Full Frontal didn't give a single solitary poo poo about the box being a literal nothing, since the only value he assigned to it was the fear that it inspired in his enemies. It could have been a tablet that said "pee pee poo poo" 100 times and it wouldn't have made a difference to him because he only cared about it as leverage against the Federation government. He only gives up when he engages in a Nihilism Versus Optimism showdown with Banagher.
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May 19, 2021 17:22
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Honestly, Movie 7's fate was pretty much written already by coming after Movie 5 and 6. The back half of Unicorn is pretty much all downhill, and that's I think the big reason why the ending is flat. I think conceptually movie 7 could be made to work, but not when it comes after two films that only lead into it in the most shallow and trite ways. (The following is spoilered in deference to the one person the conversation who hasn't seen the ending of Unicorn)I like the CONCEPTION of the box. The idea that this big important mystery is ultimately a red herring is a really potent irony that fits alarmingly well with UC Gundam. This box that is talked up by everyone as having so much power in it that whoever knows the revolutionary secret contained within it can change the world, and after having an entire armed conflict over its we open the box and surprise, it's nothing. If you want a metaphor about cycles of hatred, about people fighting each other over an endless chain of slights and cruelties, about how entire generations are born into a conflict that is meaningless to them, then the box is incredibly powerful in that regard because people are LITERALLY fighting over nothing! The problem is that Unicorn is bad in getting its thematic ducks in a row. The setting and the message of Unicorn clash, and as is usual when show and tell fight, show always wins. People joke about Banagher and his "even so", but the whole point is that Banagher is choosing to believe in the possibility of a better future even if it's blind, stupid hope because what else should he do? Unicorn is ultimately about an entire generation of people who inherited nothing good for the previous generation. Banagher alone received a message of hope from his father, nobody else inherited anything good. We have a whole host of cast members who were born after the One-Year War but are STILL fighting it! The Federation and Zeon are fighting each other for, what? The fourth time? The fifth time? Even more if you include side stories? Did they ever STOP fighting? And now everyone is fighting over some box and it turns out that that box is nothing, but it doesn't matter, because it's the Federation and Zeon in the box is just an excuse for people to kill each other all over again. And it is so good as an empty, stupid, sad, pathetic symbol of conflict that it feels hollow when Banagher talks about it as potential for a brighter tomorrow because you can read that line to believe it means that the people who created the Universal Century believed in the potential for a better future. The metaphor here was, and is, Pandora's box and that tiny sliver of hope at the bottom of it, but Banagher's hope is sad and fragile indeed. The real problem with Banagher is that Unicorn is way better at refuting Banagher then it is at supporting him. That's not to say it doesn't try and it's not to say the show actually stands against him. Zinnerman had an incredible story arc, it was poo poo how they got there but Riddhe finally deciding to let go and stop being lovely was cathartic and deserved, and Full Frontal being a completely hollow man who was literally possessed by a ghost from the past who disintegrated when he saw hope makes a really great spokesperson for the cipher that is Zeon after the One-Year War. But the show on the whole is still ultimately cynical about the Universal Century and does a good job showing the tragedy of that setting. There is the idea in here that Banagher influenced all of these people for the better, and that previous heroes did something similar, but the world will be saved person by person, generation by generation, bit by bit. But Unicorn is also bleak. Even putting aside we know what happens in the century after Unicorn, the show still does a better job arguing against Banagher's blind hope than for it. And I'm not totally sure what could have been done to change that and make that hopeful ending feel earned and supported and justified. You would have to change movies 5 and 6 at minimum, you would need to refocus them to more deliberately work to justify Banagher and his position; you would need to show some kind of explicit positive difference even if it's only on the micro scale. And you would need to make them really good. Movie 4 is easily the best Unicorn movie and it's entirely about generations inheriting hate, pointless killing, and sense that there's no way out of this conflict. If movie is 5 and 6 were similarly excellent and show the opposite that would go a long way towards justifying movie 7. And don't kill Marida you idiots. If your show is about hope for a better future then don't turn around and kill the sympathetic Newtype woman.
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May 19, 2021 17:28
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