Israel/Palestine

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(Thread IKs: Main Paineframe, Irony Be My Shield, punishedkissinger)

Greg12: Apr 22, 2020

Herstory Begins Now posted:

I look forward to seeing what you have to back this up

https://www.state.gov/u-s-security-cooperation-with-saudi-arabia/

# ? May 19, 2021 16:57

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# ? May 10, 2024 10:20

Gaj: Apr 30, 2006

If the Palestinian population of East Jerusalem keep getting pushed out and replaced with Jewish settlers, where does that leave the Al-Aqsa mosque? It would obviously be cut off from the majority of the Palestinian population and the West Bank proper. Does this basically entail a drastic reduction in Muslim visitation, and therefor increased control by Israeli authorities?

Gaj fucked around with this message at 19:12 on May 19, 2021

# ? May 19, 2021 19:09

Rushputin: Jul 19, 2007; Intense, but quick to finish

If Israel keeps getting its way, I assume there's going to be a "random fire" or something down the line.

:smith:

# ? May 19, 2021 19:19

Count Roland: Oct 6, 2013

Gaj posted:

If the Palestinian population of East Jerusalem keep getting pushed out and replaced with Jewish settlers, where does that leave the Al-Aqsa mosque? It would obviously be cut off from the majority of the Palestinian population and the West Bank proper. Does this basically entail a drastic reduction in Muslim visitation, and therefor increased control by Israeli authorities?

I think the overall trend is for more overt Israeli control. What this means for Muslim visitation would depend on the circumstances at the time.

# ? May 19, 2021 19:28

shades of blue: Sep 27, 2012

I feel like strict restrictions on visiting the al-Aqsa mosque would very quickly lead to either a third Intifada or make any rebellion much, much worse.

# ? May 19, 2021 19:41

Infidelicious: Apr 9, 2013

Sampatrick posted:

I feel like strict restrictions on visiting the al-Aqsa mosque would very quickly lead to either a third Intifada or make any rebellion much, much worse.

Thus giving Israel carte blanche to kill 'insurgents' and forcibly relocate their relatives into the West Bank and Gaza, for security reasons.

# ? May 19, 2021 19:48

Neurolimal: Nov 3, 2012

Both the C-SPAM and this D&D thread have been (rightfully) pessimistic about what's happening right now, but I think this article is a surprisingly negative (as in skeptical of Israel's power, Haaretz has always been willing to be critical of its state) with regards to this most recent barrage.

This Is Israel�s Most Failed and Pointless Gaza Operation Ever. It Must End Now

quote:

As of its ninth day, Operation Guardian of the Walls in Gaza has turned into Israel�s most failed and pointless border war ever, even when measured against the tough competition from the champion league of the Second Lebanon War, and Operations Pillar of Defense, Cast Lead and Protective Edge in Gaza. We have been witness to a serious military and diplomatic failure that has exposed major deficiencies in the army�s preparations and performance and in the leadership of a confused and helpless government.

Instead of wasting time in a useless effort to create an �image of victory� while causing death and destruction in Gaza and upending lives to Israel, Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu must stop now and agree to a cease-fire -- and hope that the failure will be forgotten by public opinion as quickly as the Mount Meron disaster. In a more perfect world, it would be proper to add here �and order a thorough house cleaning of the Israel Defense Forces.� But criminal defendant Netanyahu, who is fighting to keep his official residence on Balfour Street, has neither the authority nor the political power to lead such a needed change.

These are the biggest problems revealed so far in preparations for and conduct of the war:

1. Israel had focused its attention militarily over the last decade on the �campaign between the wars� in the north and the struggle with Iran. Gaza was regarded as a secondary front that could be dealt with through economic measures � by Qatar�s funding of Hamas with Israeli backing; by a certain easing of the Gaza blockade, such as allowing building materials in; and by the (justifiable) investment in defensive measures, first and foremost Iron Dome and the underground tunnel barrier on the Gaza border, which has proven itself by frustrating attempts by Hamas to penetrate Israel by land and minimizing harm to border communities.

Hamas was viewed as a bad neighbor, but one that was weak and isolated. The one issue that interested Israeli public opinion was the periodic debate over the return of Israeli prisoners and the bodies of soldiers.

As far as we know, no intelligence official warned that Hamas could with a small effort escape the cage Israel had put it into and emerge at the head of the Palestinian struggle for al-Aqsa, as well as widening the rift between Israel and the new administration of President Joe Biden.

2. Due to the intelligence failure in estimating Hamas� intentions and abilities, a tactical intelligence failure ensured: The military hadn�t amassed enough quality targets in Gaza whose destruction could have caused the collapse of Hamas� willingness and ability to attack Israel�s home front. The air force has hit many targets that Hamas will have to rebuild, but that hasn�t been enough. The flight hours and ammunition expended by the military have an economic cost, just like Hamas� tunnels and rockets. As Gen. Israel Tal once wrote: �When strategy is derived from tactics, battles are won and wars are lost.�

You can feed the public with news broadcasts arrogantly talking about �the painful blows we�ve delivered to Hamas� and showcase the pilot who killed an Islamic Jihad commander � while forgetting that this was an advanced fighter jet with precision armaments attacking an apartment building � as a modern-day version of Judah the Maccabee or Meir Har-Zion. But all these layers of makeup can�t cover up the truth: The military has no idea how to paralyze Hamas� forces and throw it off balance. Destroying its tunnels with powerful bombs revealed Israel�s strategic capabilities without causing any substantive damage to the enemy�s fighting abilities.

Assuming 100, 200 or even 300 fighters were killed, would this bring down Hamas rule? Or its command and control systems? Or its ability to fire rockets at Israel? The shrinking number of quality targets is evident in the growing number of civilian casualties as the campaign has continued.

3. A year of the coronavirus inured the Israel public to closed schools, empty streets and a shuttered airport. It has demonstrated resilience in the face of rockets from Gaza, as it did in the face of a pandemic from China. Instead, the public trauma has focused on the collapse of coexistence between Jews and Arabs inside Israel more than it has on the external conflict. Nevertheless, Hamas has severely damaged the fabric of life in Tel Aviv and the south, and the military doesn�t appear capable of stopping it after a week and a half of firing.

4. Israel�s land forces have been consigned to the marginal role of deceiving and confusing the enemy into descending into tunnels in the hopes of trapping them through airstrikes. Even this doesn�t seem to have succeeded � large numbers of Hamas fighters were not inside the tunnels that were bombed.

It�s good that no one has been contemplating a real ground operation in Gaza, which would lead to heavy losses. Israel has no goals that would justify such an operation like that, and this time there aren�t calls to �go in� and invade Gaza, even from the far right of the political map. In any case, the fear is that the land forces aren�t aren�t capable of entering the fray and are unprepared for combat.

5. It is worthwhile recalling the words of the angry prophet, Maj. Gen. (res.) Yitzhak Brik, the sharpest critic of the army brass in recent years, who warned that the next war would be fought on the home front, that Israel had no answer to attacks involving thousands of missiles, and that its land forces aren�t able to fight.

Brik was talking about a future war with Hezbollah, whose fighting power is much greater than that of Hamas. But the current conflict should be seen as a taste of what is to come, and it doesn�t look good. Iron Dome has brought down the great majority of rockets and has saved many lives, but it has struggled to cope with concentrated barrages. The Israeli home front has never been hit by such a quantity of weapons. Ashkelon has turned into a ghost town, and homes without shelters have been abandoned. But all of this is tiny compared to what Hezbollah is capable of doing.

In the face of such limited achievements, Netanyahu would do well to stop now and hand Biden a small achievement by calling the immediate cease-fire that the president has been seeking. There�s no reason in continuing to pound away at the Gaza sandbag while bringing life in Israel�s south and center to a standstill. Fixing the military, it seems, will have to wait till Israel has new leadership.

It seems to me like Netanyahu is desperate to have a victory out of this, but i'm not sure if there is one; even with figures that are most assuredly inflated and projected their declared damage to Hamas seems rather pathetic. Hamas has declared that they've months of missile stockpiles & have demonstrated the ability to hit at Israel's core. They are remaining steadfast in their ceasefire conditions (stop incursions on the Al-Aqsa mosque, do not evict palestinians in Jerusalem) which Netanyahu absolutely cannot accept without looking like he's lost, and the classic Israel tactic of leveling every civilian utility has taken far greater public scrutiny than ever before.

He's successfully broken up this latest opposition coalition attempt, but how does he finish this stunt without looking impotent to the right?

All they can really do is make Gaza citizens more miserable, and while that might get their rocks off it doesn't achieve much.

Neurolimal fucked around with this message at 20:43 on May 19, 2021

# ? May 19, 2021 20:40

Herstory Begins Now: Aug 5, 2003; Can't post for 14 hours!

Mind_Taker posted:

https://www.al-monitor.com/originals/2021/04/congress-presses-biden-administration-answers-yemen-war

So again, what substantive actions has the Biden administration taken to actually reverse the US�s military aid to Saudi Arabia and to help end the war in Yemen? It�s nothing but platitudes and lip-service without the action to back it up. It�s the same poo poo Obama and Democrats (and Trump for that matter) did with the war in Afghanistan: promising to end the war on the campaign trail but not actually ending it in any meaningful way when in power.

If the Biden administration can�t even bother to follow up with meaningful details about this then I don�t have faith that anything has really changed. Anything can be classified as a �defensive war.� It�s mindless nonsense.

You linked an article that says almost entirely that dems are conducting oversight to make sure that biden's policies of not providing support to KSA are being followed and that they are specifically pushing to get the blockade lightened and removed. The difference in practical terms is we've gone from actively, directly fighting yemen to arguing now whether allowing (not even paying for, just permitting) mechanics is support (and imo yeah gently caress the ksa's airforce).

none of that is even remotely in the same ballpark as "Biden also ended US support for Saudi-led �offensive� war efforts in Yemen and surprise! It�s just as bad now as ever and we�re still helping the Saudis just as much as before!" which is just :rolleyes:

This is a continuation of the earlier debate over what constitutes defensive support and it's coming up entirely because congressional dems are conducting oversight to make sure that the policy is actually being implemented.

anyways poo poo in yemen is still plenty hosed and above all the blockade needs to end yesterday, obviously all support defensive or offensive should be withheld from the saudis (and israel, too) and the oversight to make sure that happens needs to be forthcoming and with teeth and i am convinced there are ways to make that point without weird equivocating hyperbole.

btw some more detail here:
https://www.vox.com/2021/4/27/22403579/biden-saudi-yemen-war-pentagon
tldr; american technicians appear to still be working on planes under military cooperation policies, dem oversight is pissed, calling this basically offensive support which imo it is and it should be ended.

Greg12 posted:

https://www.state.gov/u-s-security-cooperation-with-saudi-arabia/

Might want to check the date on this

Herstory Begins Now fucked around with this message at 21:05 on May 19, 2021

# ? May 19, 2021 20:58

FlamingLiberal: Jan 18, 2009; Would you like to play a game?

I see this Gaza operation as a positive for Bibi, if for no other reason than it cemented his power

# ? May 19, 2021 21:12

Mind_Taker: May 7, 2007

Herstory Begins Now posted:

You linked an article that says almost entirely that dems are conducting oversight to make sure that biden's policies of not providing support to KSA are being followed and that they are specifically pushing to get the blockade lightened and removed. The difference in practical terms is we've gone from actively, directly fighting yemen to arguing now whether allowing (not even paying for, just permitting) mechanics is support (and imo yeah gently caress the ksa's airforce).

none of that is even remotely in the same ballpark as "Biden also ended US support for Saudi-led �offensive� war efforts in Yemen and surprise! It�s just as bad now as ever and we�re still helping the Saudis just as much as before!" which is just This is a continuation of the earlier debate over what constitutes defensive support and it's coming up entirely because congressional dems are conducting oversight to make sure that the policy is actually being implemented.

anyways poo poo in yemen is still plenty hosed and above all the blockade needs to end yesterday, obviously all support defensive or offensive should be withheld from the saudis (and israel, too) and the oversight to make sure that happens needs to be forthcoming and with teeth and i am convinced there are ways to make that point without weird equivocating hyperbole.

btw some more detail here:
https://www.vox.com/2021/4/27/22403579/biden-saudi-yemen-war-pentagon
tldr; american technicians appear to still be working on planes under military cooperation policies, dem oversight is pissed, calling this basically offensive support which imo it is and it should be ended.

Might want to check the date on this

The Congressional Democrats who actually give a poo poo about this issue are frustrated because they aren't getting any answers:

https://jacobinmag.com/2021/04/crisis-yemen-saudi-united-states-arms-sales-starvation

quote:

The administration has indicated it wants to broker a ceasefire with the help of the UN. But behind the scenes, it has continued arms sales to Saudi Arabia as well as the UAE, which is currently supporting militia fighters fighting for independence from the Hadi government.

Earlier this month, nearly eighty Democratic lawmakers sent a letter to Biden urging the government to adopt a more aggressive approach to end the blockade. Then, two weeks ago, a bipartisan group of lawmakers sent a similar letter to Secretary of State Antony Blinken.

�Ending this practice will boost Yemen�s economy, de-escalate the conflict, and prevent this humanitarian catastrophe from worsening � all important U.S. objectives,� read the Blinken letter.

But at the House foreign affairs subcommittee hearing on the matter this week, Lenderking, Biden�s Yemen envoy, made clear that the administration�s biggest concern wasn�t the devastating Saudi blockade, but instead a current Houthi offensive in the country�s oil-rich region of Ma�rib � the last Hadi stronghold in northern Yemen.

Lenderking called the Houthi incursion in the area, which experts say could deliver a decisive blow against the Hadi government in exile, the �single biggest threat to peace efforts� and warned it was having �devastating humanitarian consequences.�

Lenderking added that, �If we do not stop the fighting in Ma�rib now, it will trigger a wave of even greater fighting and instability,� and he called on the international community and regional actors like Oman to take steps to stop the offensive.

Lenderking did not answer questions at the hearings about US support for coalition military operations that many say are prolonging the country�s suffering.

So again where is the proof that things are actually changing? All that has happened is that the Biden administration made a statement that they are going to end support for offensive operations. That contains no substance, no detail. And nothing has been provided to Congress. The bare minimum that they have done has returned Yemen to the status quo of the middle of the Trump administration.

https://citationsneeded.medium.com/episode-133-the-art-of-fake-ending-wars-16f2edd313db

quote:

Shireen Al-Adeimi: Yeah, so first thing to remember is that Biden�s administration began by undoing a lot of the harm that was done by the Trump administration toward the end of the Trump administration and so some of those things that should have never happened in the first place, like Trump cutting all USAID to Northern Yemen, where the Houthis rule, and where 70 or 80 percent of the population live, them designating the Houthis as terrorists and so Trump had passed the FTO designation, you know, and it went into effect a day before Biden took office and he reversed that and that was, by the way, the shortest reversal ever. The shortest time before this was two years. So we were really worried that this designation would go through, and then it would just go through this bureaucratic nightmare to reverse it and it would essentially spell genocide in northern Yemen, because no US organization would be able to legally operate in northern Yemen and deliver aid. So that reversal, thankfully, took place right away. The weapon sales that the Trump administration was trying to push through the Emiratis got paused and reviewed. So all of these things seemed like they were movements forward but really, they were just kind of getting us back to status quo and then in addition to that, the Biden administration announced that they were ending offensive operations in the war in Yemen and they said they stopped intelligence sharing. What that means, of course, is that we actually have no idea. There�s no way to verify this. There has not been transparency, the bombing has escalated, the blockade has been tightened and so the reality on the ground for Yemenis is actually much worse the last couple of months and my sense is that the US continues to support the Saudi-led coalition. We just don�t know right now.

In the absence of evidence of substantial change, the correct assumption is to assume that nothing is changed, given Biden's and the Democratic Party's decades of promoting US empire.

# ? May 19, 2021 21:20

Gatts: Jan 2, 2001; Goodnight Moon; Nap Ghost

FlamingLiberal posted:

I see this Gaza operation as a positive for Bibi, if for no other reason than it cemented his power

Well that would be the point given the struggle to form govt.

# ? May 19, 2021 21:38

Neurolimal: Nov 3, 2012

Obviously that has succeeded, talks have broken down and unless I'm forgetting anything Israel will be heading into a new election, but how long will it remain an advantage? Are the israelis going to get tired of the sirens and the qassams and the declaration that the IDF have totally inflicted a new crippling blow against Hamas? Will that fatigue settle in before or after the next elections results?

I get that the people in the illegal settlements are wingnuts accustomed to getting into fights/burning crops/hiding in shelters, but how much of an appetite does Tel-Aviv have for rockets and sirens and bunkers?

# ? May 19, 2021 21:53

Tweezer Reprise: Aug 6, 2013; It hasn't got six strings, but it's a lot of fun.

I imagine the real question is whether enough people blame that on the Israeli government, or on who the Israel government has told them to blame it on. It seems, at the moment, that it's likely the latter.

# ? May 19, 2021 21:54

OctaMurk: Jun 21, 2013

The rockets make people afraid and Netanyahu is a good politician who can turn fear into votes. I think whether the conflict is short or long its good for him. Protective Edge lasted over a month.

# ? May 19, 2021 21:57

Nebalebadingdong: Jun 30, 2005; i made a video game.
why not give it a try!?

general public reaction and press (in the US anyway) seems somewhat less pro-Israel this time around

# ? May 19, 2021 21:57

Herstory Begins Now: Aug 5, 2003; Can't post for 14 hours!

Mind_Taker posted:

The Congressional Democrats who actually give a poo poo about this issue are frustrated because they aren't getting any answers:

https://jacobinmag.com/2021/04/crisis-yemen-saudi-united-states-arms-sales-starvation

So again where is the proof that things are actually changing? All that has happened is that the Biden administration made a statement that they are going to end support for offensive operations. That contains no substance, no detail. And nothing has been provided to Congress. The bare minimum that they have done has returned Yemen to the status quo of the middle of the Trump administration.

https://citationsneeded.medium.com/episode-133-the-art-of-fake-ending-wars-16f2edd313db

In the absence of evidence of substantial change, the correct assumption is to assume that nothing is changed, given Biden's and the Democratic Party's decades of promoting US empire.

you know that no dem in the house or senate voted against the end american support for KSA. It's one of the very few things the dems have actually been meaningfully unified on.

quote:

The bare minimum that they have done has returned Yemen to the status quo of the middle of the Trump administration.

This makes no sense. the status quo then was US actively launching attacks against yemen directly and providing unlimited support to KSA and UAE? The status quo doesn't even remotely resemble that. btw the arms sale mentioned in the jacobin article is for a trump era deal with a 2025 delivery, so selling that as an ongoing act of arming them is some pretty poor journalism.

The hosed up thing currently is that KSA remains able to blockade yemen unilaterally.

# ? May 19, 2021 21:58

Internet Explorer: Jun 1, 2005

https://twitter.com/SenSanders/status/1395131322067263489

# ? May 19, 2021 22:44

Leon Sumbitches: Mar 27, 2010; Dr. Leon Adoso Sumbitches (prounounced soom-'beh-cheh) (born January 21, 1935) is heir to the legendary Adoso family oil fortune.

Nebalebadingdong posted:

general public reaction and press (in the US anyway) seems somewhat less pro-Israel this time around

Guess it depends which general public you speak to

https://twitter.com/peterdaou/status/1393234576659697672?s=20

E: didn't see you specifically said in the US

# ? May 19, 2021 22:50

Madkal: Feb 11, 2008; Can't post for 3 days!; Fallen Rib

Leon Sumbitches posted:

Guess it depends which general public you speak to

https://twitter.com/peterdaou/status/1393234576659697672?s=20

E: didn't see you specifically said in the US

Using these guys to speak for all Israelis is like using MAGA chuds be representatives of all Americans.

# ? May 19, 2021 22:52

Thom12255: Feb 23, 2013; WHERE THE FUCK IS MY MONEY

Madkal posted:

Using these guys to speak for all Israelis is like using MAGA chuds be representatives of all Americans.

Looking up Abby Martin (https://www.twitter.com/AbbyMartin) it's pretty clear she probably only showed one side of the story in that video for her own reasons. Still sucks that those people exist but it's not unique to Israel.

# ? May 19, 2021 23:01

Failed Imagineer: Sep 22, 2018

Madkal posted:

Using these guys to speak for all Israelis is like using MAGA chuds be representatives of all Americans.

More like using MAGA chuds to represent all of Alabama - sure it's a generalisation, but...

# ? May 19, 2021 23:10

Conspiratiorist: Nov 12, 2015; 17th Separate Kryvyi Rih Tank Brigade named after Konstantin Pestushko
Look to my coming on the first light of the ~~fifth~~ ~~sixth~~ some day

MAGA chuds are a third of Americans, plus another third of centrists who tacitly endorse them.

# ? May 19, 2021 23:14

Nucleic Acids: Apr 10, 2007

Thom12255 posted:

Looking up Abby Martin (https://www.twitter.com/AbbyMartin) it's pretty clear she probably only showed one side of the story in that video for her own reasons. Still sucks that those people exist but it's not unique to Israel.

No, it is actually incredibly loving widespread among Israeli society, people like him are basically the majority at this point. The society has shifted so far to the right it has broken completely, if it was actually put together at any point.

# ? May 19, 2021 23:16

TheDoublePivot: Feb 27, 2013

Thom12255 posted:

Looking up Abby Martin (https://www.twitter.com/AbbyMartin) it's pretty clear she probably only showed one side of the story in that video for her own reasons. Still sucks that those people exist but it's not unique to Israel.

What were her reasons would you say?

# ? May 19, 2021 23:38

Leon Sumbitches: Mar 27, 2010; Dr. Leon Adoso Sumbitches (prounounced soom-'beh-cheh) (born January 21, 1935) is heir to the legendary Adoso family oil fortune.

Thom12255 posted:

Looking up Abby Martin (https://www.twitter.com/AbbyMartin) it's pretty clear she probably only showed one side of the story in that video for her own reasons. Still sucks that those people exist but it's not unique to Israel.

https://twitter.com/EmpireFiles/status/1393224042073640960?s=20

"To clarify something about this video for the doubters: These are not cherry-picked. We spent hours in Jerusalem interviewing random people on the street—young & old, religious & secular, Israeli born & US born—ALL of them made it in the full video. All of them sounded like this."

# ? May 20, 2021 00:03

Internet Explorer: Jun 1, 2005

Just in case anyone wanted the full video.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lFoxL3sOAio

# ? May 20, 2021 00:17

Judakel: Jul 29, 2004; Can't post for 9 years!

Herstory Begins Now posted:

I look forward to seeing what you have to back this up

"defensive help only"

# ? May 20, 2021 00:38

Lassitude: Oct 21, 2003

I felt Louis Theroux's documentary on "ultra Zionism" helped me appreciate how problematic the settler issue is.

https://vimeo.com/102569427

# ? May 20, 2021 00:49

America Inc.: Nov 22, 2013; I plan to live forever, of course, but barring that I'd settle for a couple thousand years. Even 500 would be pretty nice.

Leon Sumbitches posted:

https://twitter.com/EmpireFiles/status/1393224042073640960?s=20

"To clarify something about this video for the doubters: These are not cherry-picked. We spent hours in Jerusalem interviewing random people on the street—young & old, religious & secular, Israeli born & US born—ALL of them made it in the full video. All of them sounded like this."

The tweet below that one:
https://twitter.com/EmpireFiles/status/1391870440671354882

Is reminding me of how police apologists talk about shootings in the US. They're either coming up with excuses to justify murder of innocent and unarmed people, or they're coming up with conspiracy theories to shift blame onto the victims. Holy poo poo, "self-genocide" is one of the most insane fascistic terms I've ever heard.

# ? May 20, 2021 01:01

Jaxyon: Mar 7, 2016; Can't post for 3 days!

Man how evil can you get? Just forcing those poor troops to kill children.

Monstrous.

:rolleyes:

# ? May 20, 2021 01:05

Moongrave: Jun 19, 2004; Finally Living Rent Free

Madkal posted:

Using these guys to speak for all Israelis is like using MAGA chuds be representatives of all Americans.

loving lmao my dude

I got bad news for you and how the world views Americans and how they speak about other people/countries

# ? May 20, 2021 02:01

Main Paineframe: Oct 27, 2010

Neurolimal posted:

Both the C-SPAM and this D&D thread have been (rightfully) pessimistic about what's happening right now, but I think this article is a surprisingly negative (as in skeptical of Israel's power, Haaretz has always been willing to be critical of its state) with regards to this most recent barrage.

This Is Israel’s Most Failed and Pointless Gaza Operation Ever. It Must End Now

It seems to me like Netanyahu is desperate to have a victory out of this, but i'm not sure if there is one; even with figures that are most assuredly inflated and projected their declared damage to Hamas seems rather pathetic. Hamas has declared that they've months of missile stockpiles & have demonstrated the ability to hit at Israel's core. They are remaining steadfast in their ceasefire conditions (stop incursions on the Al-Aqsa mosque, do not evict palestinians in Jerusalem) which Netanyahu absolutely cannot accept without looking like he's lost, and the classic Israel tactic of leveling every civilian utility has taken far greater public scrutiny than ever before.

He's successfully broken up this latest opposition coalition attempt, but how does he finish this stunt without looking impotent to the right?

All they can really do is make Gaza citizens more miserable, and while that might get their rocks off it doesn't achieve much.

This is par for the course - the previous Gaza invasions had the same problems and led to the same kind of sentiments. There's simply no way a real military victory can be attained against Hamas using only a limited ground invasion backed up by airstrikes. But looking for that completely misses the point - just having the war is enough to get the radical right energized and get the centrists pivoting rightward.

So far, it hasn't been fatal to his political schemes. Even if Netanyahu ends the war looking weak, just having the war at all brings more than enough benefit to counterbalance that. It's not like the people shouting that Bibi didn't bomb Hamas hard enough are gonna turn around and vote for the left.

# ? May 20, 2021 02:10

Jaxyon: Mar 7, 2016; Can't post for 3 days!

Exactly.

Nobody in Israeli politics is trying to win this conflict. It's political red meat.

Just with a huge body count.

# ? May 20, 2021 02:14

Dapper_Swindler: Feb 14, 2012; Im glad my instant dislike in you has been validated again and again.

Neurolimal posted:

Both the C-SPAM and this D&D thread have been (rightfully) pessimistic about what's happening right now, but I think this article is a surprisingly negative (as in skeptical of Israel's power, Haaretz has always been willing to be critical of its state) with regards to this most recent barrage.

This Is Israel�s Most Failed and Pointless Gaza Operation Ever. It Must End Now

It seems to me like Netanyahu is desperate to have a victory out of this, but i'm not sure if there is one; even with figures that are most assuredly inflated and projected their declared damage to Hamas seems rather pathetic. Hamas has declared that they've months of missile stockpiles & have demonstrated the ability to hit at Israel's core. They are remaining steadfast in their ceasefire conditions (stop incursions on the Al-Aqsa mosque, do not evict palestinians in Jerusalem) which Netanyahu absolutely cannot accept without looking like he's lost, and the classic Israel tactic of leveling every civilian utility has taken far greater public scrutiny than ever before.

He's successfully broken up this latest opposition coalition attempt, but how does he finish this stunt without looking impotent to the right?

All they can really do is make Gaza citizens more miserable, and while that might get their rocks off it doesn't achieve much.

yeah, they created a situation that they can't really win without ripping the mask off so much that indifferent Americans might actually turn against them. they want a perpetual boogieman enemies to "fight" forever but they also want to basicaly genocide faster than the "gradual" one thats on going. but they invade fully, then IDF will probably lose way way more then they find "acceptible" and the game is "no longer fun".

Internet Explorer posted:

https://twitter.com/SenSanders/status/1395131322067263489

good, least someone loving is.

Jaxyon posted:

Exactly.

Nobody in Israeli politics is trying to win this conflict. It's political red meat.

Just with a huge body count.

sure but i think they will hit the problem the GOP has. the true believers will take charge because folks like bibi made them into a ladder and pulled it up with him. because to those assholes, its no longer a hosed up cynical "red meat" issue, its a true and real policy and that makes me worried for the future.

Dapper_Swindler fucked around with this message at 02:24 on May 20, 2021

# ? May 20, 2021 02:20

Jam Band Death Cult: Feb 29, 2008; I'm Very Glad I'm Going To Be An Earl

Is it just me or English-language Haaretz is trash? Like, this guy:

https://twitter.com/AnshelPfeffer/status/1395089310542663680

# ? May 20, 2021 02:49

JBP: Feb 16, 2017; You've got to know, to understand,
Baby, take me by my hand,
I'll lead you to the promised land.

Conspiratiorist posted:

MAGA chuds are a third of Americans, plus another third of centrists who tacitly endorse them.

How come Trump didn't win 66% of the votes?

# ? May 20, 2021 03:02

Dapper_Swindler: Feb 14, 2012; Im glad my instant dislike in you has been validated again and again.

Conspiratiorist posted:

MAGA chuds are a third of Americans, plus another third of centrists who tacitly endorse them.

its more the centrists/moderates (i mean johnny and jane Q moderat voters not federal level politicians) don't know jack poo poo about Israel or Palestine and probably take Israel's side because thats who they hear the most about from media and history and poo poo. its ignorance mixed with indifference because most people don't have time to study it or etc. especially since right now, no moderate voters are clamoring for any kinda of FP changes or whatever. folks like my aunts and my dad care about taxes and infrastructure stuff more and don't know the first thing about the conflict.

# ? May 20, 2021 03:11

JBP: Feb 16, 2017; You've got to know, to understand,
Baby, take me by my hand,
I'll lead you to the promised land.

Dapper_Swindler posted:

its more the centrists/moderates (i mean johnny and jane Q moderat voters not federal level politicians) don't know jack poo poo about Israel or Palestine and probably take Israel's side because thats who they hear the most about from media and history and poo poo. its ignorance mixed with indifference because most people don't have time to study it or etc. especially since right now, no moderate voters are clamoring for any kinda of FP changes or whatever. folks like my aunts and my dad care about taxes and infrastructure stuff more and don't know the first thing about the conflict.

Idk what the American numbers look like, but it's interesting in Australia that more people support Palestine. That being said it's like 6% Israel, 12% Palestine and the rest are don't know.

# ? May 20, 2021 03:19

Dapper_Swindler: Feb 14, 2012; Im glad my instant dislike in you has been validated again and again.

JBP posted:

Idk what the American numbers look like, but it's interesting in Australia that more people support Palestine. That being said it's like 6% Israel, 12% Palestine and the rest are don't know.

its still a plurality for israel, though the majority seems to be sympathetic towards both.

# ? May 20, 2021 03:23

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# ? May 10, 2024 10:20

A Terrible Person: Jan 8, 2012; The Dance of Friendship; Fun Shoe

rscott posted:

https://twitter.com/justinbaragona/status/1394717086543486979?s=19
lol an Joe Biden can go get hosed with this patronizing bullshit

"Hyuck, hyuck; your family doesn't live in Gaza so your statements of concern are a lie.

"Also, I will refuse to mention Settler activity in the West Bank. All things are cool and normal right now, even ALL the warcrimes. Bombing Gaza is cool and good and I won't be attacking your family directly, so you should join us. Otherwise you're an anti-semite who's family should die."

# ? May 20, 2021 03:31

The Something Awful Forums > Discussion > Debate & Discussion > Israel/Palestine

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