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OnimaruXLR posted:Y'know, I realize that Onslaught (the storyline) is about as bad a big bloated dumbass comic event with inexplicably extensive fallout as there ever has been, but I don't think Onslaught (The concept) is irredeemable Well here's a sentence I never imagined writing, but I should really read the X-Men/Micronauts crossover. I imagine it's hard to find though.
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May 21, 2021 10:58
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OnimaruXLR posted:If nothing else, he is way cooler than Knull. This is such an incredibly low bar to clear.
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May 21, 2021 11:56
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Knull would have been an embarrassment as a villain in a single book, but then Marvel editors thought to make a whole crossover about Knull. That's certainly one way of doubling down on the cringe.
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May 21, 2021 11:59
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I keeep meaning to read the 90's x books but I just don't want to have to deal with Onslaught BS. Though I guess this is a good excuse. Is there a good reading order out there?
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May 21, 2021 12:00
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OnimaruXLR posted:Y'know, I realize that Onslaught (the storyline) is about as bad a big bloated dumbass comic event with inexplicably extensive fallout as there ever has been, but I don't think Onslaught (The concept) is irredeemable He looks cool as hell; I remember playing Marvel Vs Capcom and loving the design. He was such an imposing final boss that I was really dissapointed when I learned how bad the storyline actually was. What a waste.
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May 21, 2021 12:06
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Skwirl posted:I keeep meaning to read the 90's x books but I just don't want to have to deal with Onslaught BS. Though I guess this is a good excuse. It depends on how much non-X-Stuff you want to read. When we did it a couple months ago, one of the x-book club guys put together a 35 (!!!) issue list but we pared it down because a lot of it seemed tangentially related. We did this list: Onslaught: X-Men #1 (1996) Uncanny X-Men #335 X-Man #18 Cable #34 Incredible Hulk Vol. 2 #444 Avengers #401 Fantastic Four #415 X-Factor #125 X-Men Vol. 2 #55 Uncanny X-Men #336 X-Factor #126 Cable #35 X-Force #58 X-Man #19 Fantastic Four #416 X-Men Vol. 2 #56 Onslaught: Marvel Universe #1 (1996) Onslaught: Epilogue #1 (1997) There's also a Punisher issue (Vol. 3 #11) that is one of the most ridiculous loving things ever so I guess I recommend that. We also read this: https://continuitynod.com/2019/12/24/inside-marvels-onslaught-epic/ Which gives good background about the original concept vs. what came out. TL;DR is that the original plan was for Onslaught to be ALL Xavier. The years of stress, etc. actually turn him bad and he's supposed to be Dark Xavier. WHICH IS A GOOD STORY! But editorial pulled back and the result was the Charles-Mags mess that makes zero loving sense. After reading through the entire 90s post-Claremont crossovers now (we're on The Twelve and... bluh), I think Onslaught wasn't good but it also was just a big, nonsensical Marvel bullshit crossover. I made the argument that outside of more poor treatment of Magneto as a character, it's mostly inoffensive dumb fun. And having just read the original AoA a bit earlier, I would much rather read Onslaught again than that story. Age of Apocalypse is a story where the writers seemed to go "how do we make all our best characters dumb and bad?" (Generation Next being the big exception.)
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May 21, 2021 13:04
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I remember The Twelve being incredibly boring and anti-climatic, even to young me who had less...discerning taste.
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May 21, 2021 13:16
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nemesis_hub posted:I remember The Twelve being incredibly boring and anti-climatic, even to young me who had less...discerning taste. I had never read any of the Alan Davis run but I think it is being criminally overlooked when people talk about the worst X-periods. Coming in blind, I had no idea how much the loving Skrulls would play in this story. Also, he created what I am insisting is the most offensive x-character of all time.
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May 21, 2021 13:31
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Magneto and Xavier are not individually powerful enough to combine into a significant threat. I can't believe nobody was fired for this blunder.
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May 21, 2021 13:50
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OnimaruXLR posted:If nothing else, he is way cooler than Knull. Nah at a character level Onslaught was worse, from a storytelling perspective Onslaught was worse, and in the macro publishing sense Onslaught was worse because it led to Heroes Reborn which was many orders of magnitude worse and more disruptive than anything involving Knull. It's easy to look back now and say that when there's recency bias regarding Knull. But Knull won't be remembered because it had little consequence and was lame and at least had some good tie-ins. Onslaught was so bad it won't be forgotten for a long time.
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May 21, 2021 14:10
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Yeah, Knull didn't actually change anything about the status quo, it just had a couple issues of seeing a hero deal with a global threat in the tie ins.
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May 21, 2021 14:26
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Skwirl posted:Yeah, Knull didn't actually change anything about the status quo, it just had a couple issues of seeing a hero deal with a global threat in the tie ins. I know retcons aren't forever (because they're retcons) but the whole Knull thing rewrote 616 history and placed a Venom-related character as one of the fundamental characters in the universe which... sucks a lot more than some marketing experiment from 1996 that people mostly remember for Captain America's chest to me. I don't understand hating Heroes Reborn, something that has zero long-term affects on anything and is just mostly dumb. Knull is probably going to be similarly forgotten with time but the stupidity is still very fresh and still is directly related to 616 stuff. Also, on a personal level, I hate how Knull retroactively makes the God Butcher stuff dumber.
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May 21, 2021 14:35
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Plus, Heroes Reborn led to Thunderbolts, which was awesome. Let me know when Knull even indirectly leads to anything good.
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May 21, 2021 14:54
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Angry Salami posted:Plus, Heroes Reborn led to Thunderbolts, which was awesome. Let me know when Knull even indirectly leads to anything good. Black Cat relaunch
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May 21, 2021 14:56
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danbanana posted:I had never read any of the Alan Davis run but I think it is being criminally overlooked when people talk about the worst X-periods. Coming in blind, I had no idea how much the loving Skrulls would play in this story. Also, he created what I am insisting is the most offensive x-character of all time. I'm not gonna debate that but Stacy X has gotta be up there for worst x-character
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May 21, 2021 15:14
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Stacy X could be a really interesting character in better hands. Vindaloo is unambiguously offensive.
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May 21, 2021 15:18
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she was an interesting character during nightcrawler's group therapy session. one good scene is more than vindaloo ever got.
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May 21, 2021 15:20
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Skwirl posted:Black Cat relaunch Yeah but that book was good before Knull showed up? If the argument is that Knull gave Marvel an excuse to bring it back, I guess. rantmo posted:Stacy X could be a really interesting character in better hands. Vindaloo is unambiguously offensive. There's lots of gross x-characters ('sup, Empath) and plenty of ethnic/racial stereotypes, but everything about Vindaloo- created in the late-90s!- is offensive. Every single thing.
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May 21, 2021 15:39
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The Heroes Reborn comics weren't good, but most of those books were in pretty dire places anyway. Tom DeFalco had completely run out of things to say with the Fantastic Four, Iron Man was about toothless rehashed youth drama with Teen Tony, Avengers had Mark Waid gamely trying his best amidst a dire status quo, Thor. Captain America was in an ok place, and Thor was in the middle of a weird and meandering but interesting Messner-Loebs run. The point being tossing those books aside and trying to take a wild stab at something new was not the worst thing in the world, most of them were either stagnant and unreadable or in a quagmire of ill-conceived inherited plot points (even the Messner-Loebs Thor has way more Red Norvell than anyone has ever asked for). That wild stab in the dark wound up producing, in most cases, even worse comics and the idea of farming out the books has always felt like it was doomed to failure but that's a different conversation. Edit: I just started rereading Berserk which is a hefty project on its own, or else I'd propose a group reread of the whole Onslaught enchilada. I've been reading a lot not very good older comics over the course of 2020 and 2021 and I think it's pretty interesting and revealing to chart how character beats go wrong, how plot missteps snowball, how some bad stories poison the well for years while other are immediately forgotten. I think it's a good way, sometimes, to take the pulse of the medium at different times. Brian Woods' abysmal X-Men is bad in an entirely different way from Chuck Austen's, for example, and each is bad in a way that was only possible in their respective moments. Edit 2: Thinking back on the long history of post-mortem interviews and retrospectives on Onslaught, it's striking how many good writers were involved and whose talents were wasted by an event increasingly spurred by editorial fickleness and corporate goading. Mark Waid in particular seems to have had a pretty clear, interesting, and straightforward idea in mind for who Onslaught was and what Onslaught wanted, but the groundwork he was laying got nipped in the bud by Bob Harras and to a lesser extent, allegedly, Scott Lobdell, who wanted to keep Professor X's moral character untarnished. Edit 3: You know what, gently caress it, let's do this. I'll throw up an OP tonight for anybody who wants to read along. How Wonderful! fucked around with this message at 16:58 on May 21, 2021 |
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May 21, 2021 16:38
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wait, are y'all actually reading the comics? i just like to argue online
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May 21, 2021 17:15
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Cloks posted:wait, are y'all actually reading the comics? i just like to argue online
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May 21, 2021 18:02
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How Wonderful! posted:or else I'd propose a group reread of the whole Onslaught enchilada. Wait... How Wonderful! posted:Edit 3: You know what, gently caress it, let's do this. I'll throw up an OP tonight for anybody who wants to read along. WHAT HAVE YOU DONE?!?!?!?
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May 21, 2021 18:24
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I imagine Ewing will use the Knull destroying abillion planets to do stuff in his space books. I mean, he already did it with snarkwar stuff. Knew it was Onslaught. I've never read the original, but an Onslaught who knows the Krakoa plans might be cool. Though it might not be the original since it's orchis i guess?
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May 21, 2021 18:43
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How Wonderful! posted:Edit 2: Thinking back on the long history of post-mortem interviews and retrospectives on Onslaught, it's striking how many good writers were involved and whose talents were wasted by an event increasingly spurred by editorial fickleness and corporate goading. Mark Waid in particular seems to have had a pretty clear, interesting, and straightforward idea in mind for who Onslaught was and what Onslaught wanted, but the groundwork he was laying got nipped in the bud by Bob Harras and to a lesser extent, allegedly, Scott Lobdell, who wanted to keep Professor X's moral character untarnished. I think the Dark Xavier idea is great and simple idea. And I bitch a lot about the character assassination of Magneto after Claremont left but they had a wide open way to bring that back when they introduced the AoA version. A story where Dark Xavier is taken down by a returning Magneto and how that affects things is a slam dunk story. It really sucks that they got cold feet to execute on something like that.
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May 21, 2021 19:02
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X-O posted:Nah at a character level Onslaught was worse, from a storytelling perspective Onslaught was worse, and in the macro publishing sense Onslaught was worse because it led to Heroes Reborn which was many orders of magnitude worse and more disruptive than anything involving Knull. It's easy to look back now and say that when there's recency bias regarding Knull. But Knull won't be remembered because it had little consequence and was lame and at least had some good tie-ins. Onslaught was so bad it won't be forgotten for a long time. this is easy to say now, and not in summer 2022 when Marvel unveils the Infinity Knull crossover, wherein Null sticks the Infinity Gems into his goopey symbiote sword and summons a dragon that looks like Thanos that destroys all of Kree-Skrull space, and is also revealed to be the double secret leader of the machine intelligence that has been set up as the ultimate final boss of the Krakoa era (CYBORG SYMBIOTES)
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May 21, 2021 19:17
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Yeah, I agree entirely. The origin they ultimately settled on wound up being so toothless that it said nothing interesting about either character-- it's just total fluff where we could have had something which, for the mid-90s at least, would have been pretty bold. Anywhere, [url=https://forums.somethingawful.com/showthread.php?threadid=3968346] here's the thread! I'll be kicking it off in earnest tomorrow with X-Men: Prime #1 so if anyone would like to read along that where's we'll be beginning. In spite of how rough and rowdy this event gets down the line, I think Prime is a legitimately nice little one-shot, even if it is an artifact of absolutely spoiled potential, so I think it will be fun to re-examine.
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May 21, 2021 19:18
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Sounds fun, but I’m still in 1986. I’m about to finish the X-Men/Alpha Flight two parter, and then headed back to New Mutants for the slumber party issue, and a long stretch there.
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May 21, 2021 19:51
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Isn't knull a swedish word for fish?
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May 21, 2021 21:19
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OnimaruXLR posted:this is easy to say now, and not in summer 2022 when Marvel unveils the Infinity Knull crossover, wherein Null sticks the Infinity Gems into his goopey symbiote sword and summons a dragon that looks like Thanos that destroys all of Kree-Skrull space, and is also revealed to be the double secret leader of the machine intelligence that has been set up as the ultimate final boss of the Krakoa era (CYBORG SYMBIOTES) What is this garbage. Clearly they would be Techno-Organic / Trachnarchy Symbiotes.
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May 22, 2021 01:37
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I'm ready for more Knull.
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May 22, 2021 01:59
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Happy Noodle Boy posted:I'm ready for more Knull. 
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May 22, 2021 02:19
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Amazing that Soft Serve makes her comic debut on the same page as the Onslaught reveal. 
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May 22, 2021 03:25
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How Wonderful! posted:The Heroes Reborn comics weren't good, but most of those books were in pretty dire places anyway. Tom DeFalco had completely run out of things to say with the Fantastic Four, Iron Man was about toothless rehashed youth drama with Teen Tony, Avengers had Mark Waid gamely trying his best amidst a dire status quo, Thor. Captain America was in an ok place, and Thor was in the middle of a weird and meandering but interesting Messner-Loebs run. The point being tossing those books aside and trying to take a wild stab at something new was not the worst thing in the world, most of them were either stagnant and unreadable or in a quagmire of ill-conceived inherited plot points (even the Messner-Loebs Thor has way more Red Norvell than anyone has ever asked for). That wild stab in the dark wound up producing, in most cases, even worse comics and the idea of farming out the books has always felt like it was doomed to failure but that's a different conversation.
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May 22, 2021 03:48
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Is anyone else reading Dr. Nemesis in Way of X with the voice of Dr. Krieger or is it just me?
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May 22, 2021 05:08
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rantmo posted:Is anyone else reading Dr. Nemesis in Way of X with the voice of Dr. Krieger or is it just me? I am now.
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May 22, 2021 08:37
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since Dr. Nemesis was originally a pulp character from the 40s i always read his voice in a kind of vaguely-Transatlantic accented "radio serial hero" way
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May 22, 2021 08:40
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Alaois posted:since Dr. Nemesis was originally a pulp character from the 40s i always read his voice in a kind of vaguely-Transatlantic accented "radio serial hero" way Wait, what? Do you mean his inspiration or personal history, or was there an actual Dr Nemesis in the 1940s?
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May 22, 2021 08:43
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Dr. Nemesis was created in the 40s. Though his modern character is mostly derivative.
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May 22, 2021 08:51
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Skwirl posted:Wait, what? Dr. Nemesis was an Ace Periodicals character who debuted in 1941 that Marvel owned the rights to and was introduced into the 616 in 1993 in Roy Thomas' Invaders as Doctor Death of the Battle-Axis, and then Matt Fraction brought him back again as Dr. Nemesis in his Uncanny X-Men run.
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May 22, 2021 08:54
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Alaois posted:Dr. Nemesis was an Ace Periodicals character who debuted in 1941 that Marvel owned the rights to and was introduced into the 616 in 1993 in Roy Thomas' Invaders as Doctor Death of the Battle-Axis, and then Matt Fraction brought him back again as Dr. Nemesis in his Uncanny X-Men run. I had no Idea, I thought the Matt Fraction stuff was his first appearance,
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May 22, 2021 08:56
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