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the next time you get a new job, you just pretend that you didn't goof a lil and it's like it never happened. you'll be a bit behind where you'd be otherwise but it's not a huge deal. depending on where you're at, if you start a bit behind the curve your increases tend to be bigger until you're ahead of it and then they slow down (at which point you go for promo). you still lose out on a bit but it ain't worth losing sleep over. especially if you learned from it
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May 22, 2021 04:51
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yea I coached myself pretty well and also did a dry run with the recruiter and then when I got in front of the cto *woooooop* that poo poo went out my head and I didn't use the strategies I had worked on, just didn't find the words in that moment to navigate being direct but not specific. Oh well! This is still a big win for mebob dobbs is dead posted:maybe like, a house in sf worth of money. thats why im yellin at you anyways. next time i guess
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May 22, 2021 05:19
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retire 20 years early then
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May 22, 2021 05:30
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i was going to say climate change will make my computer touching job obsolete by retirement age but then did the math and realized 20 years early would be, drat, 10 years from now. ill iterate on this lesson learned in a few years, i appreciate the input, but i already have a deep fomo about how i "hosed" it up (sort of but not really) and im trying to get that intrusive thought from recurring over and over. so to do that, ill charge it to the future and enjoy the now without beating myself up too bad For people looking to step up their programming game, im reading the warthog book (designing data intensive applications) because of the recommendation from this thread and its very good. I have 3 weeks between the end of current job and the new job so my goal is to power through this book in that time, along with doing other productive but self directed stuff in the meantime to keep my mind growing. if you google the book name and github and pdf you'll find some hits for it to read through before you buy ALSO, current job is now hosed - the other lead dev got his offer (from a different place) and dropped their resignation today. so that is two consecutive fridays hosed up for these stupid idiots who let the talent and team they had wither on the vine with terrible leadership. im so looking forward to monday. they just announced the new product manager is starting on monday. GOOD LUCK. judging by their linked in they seem like an actual really good hire, but good luck getting that good product stuff implemented with a mostly junior dev team now lmao KoRMaK fucked around with this message at 05:54 on May 22, 2021 |
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May 22, 2021 05:50
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money is good either way. i have never made the real big figgies, but made more than i need and when i had my then-current angle on my career ground to a halt two years ago i just quit and have mostly been loving around with whatever i like since then. don't have the money to retire (and looks like a proper job in an entirely different direction is now on the horizon again), but the flexibility where i can decide to just not earn any money for a couple of years is pretty sweet.
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May 22, 2021 13:18
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KoRMaK posted:i already have a deep fomo about how i "hosed" it up (sort of but not really) and im trying to get that intrusive thought from recurring over and over. so to do that, ill charge it to the future and enjoy the now without beating myself up too bad also remember that you don’t know for sure how much money you actually left on the table, if any. you might have gotten lucky and nailed their upper limit accidentally. lucky things happen sometimes!
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May 22, 2021 14:32
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ultravoices posted:"we'll have word for you after memorial day weekend!" this is good news. if they knew they didn’t want to hire you they’d just tell you now. they probably have one other candidate they already have scheduled but they feel pretty confident it will be you
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May 22, 2021 14:57
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PIZZA.BAT posted:this is good news. if they knew they didn’t want to hire you they’d just tell you now. they probably have one other candidate they already have scheduled but they feel pretty confident it will be you I know. I did my interviews and assessments ages ago and every follow up has been like this. These people are slow and I knew that going in, just my friends who also are in this hiring cycle (for different positions) are starting to get word and I want to hear back too.
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May 22, 2021 16:07
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bob dobbs is dead posted:in all eventuality, over the course of a career of doin or not doin this, the delta will be like a house worth of money i generally appreciate your posting but you gotta get off this stuff. only in the case of a few very specific companies will this actually be true and the vast majority of people even tangentially related to software won't work anywhere near them i dunno what your situation is, but you come off like a single, 20-something without any obligations except your job. take a second to think about experiences outside your bubble. the strategies that apply for you don't necessarily apply to others and the min/max attitude you seem to have about comp doesn't necessarily resonate with folks who look for non-cash or equity comp like great insurance, 401k match, fsa match, a good commute/remote work, a solid pto setup, job stability, specific tech, etc. the advice to not be the first to give a number and to counter are good, but maybe reel it in a little. figgieland and the situations of those who are attracted to figgieland are tiny in the grand scheme of software employment.
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May 22, 2021 16:19
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the initial salary negotiation is critical because it takes 30 min of your time tops and the return can be 20, 30k/year. yes, outside of figgieland prime, too - and most software employment is in a figgieland, even if its not in figgieland prime or secondus got any other situations in life where you can earn 60k/hour? (bein real fuckin obnoxious when buying a house and car, lol)
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May 22, 2021 16:23
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as a plutocrat school graduate in a hot specialty in a hot field in a hot market, i
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May 22, 2021 16:24
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not everyone else here is a plutocrat school grad but everyone else here is in a hot field in a hot market yes
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May 22, 2021 16:26
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good news for the asp programmers in cedar rapids i guess
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May 22, 2021 16:27
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PCjr sidecar posted:good news for the asp programmers in cedar rapids i guess unironically yes asp programmer range is about 60k to 120k, looks like, on glassdoor anyways, whats wrong w getting something closer to 120k than 60k? bob dobbs is dead fucked around with this message at 16:36 on May 22, 2021 |
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May 22, 2021 16:30
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i mean he’s not wrong. i massively hosed up in negotiating my first two, kind of three, jobs out of school and i’ve only just now climbed out of that pit a decade later. those years of sub-optimal earnings add up on the other hand yeah don’t be one of those people who obsessively min/max and then wake up in their mid forties wondering where their life went i think the big issue that’s often overlooked is that unless you have one hell of a pedigree it’s really REALLY difficult to effectively negotiate when you’re first getting started because you have effectively zero leverage. so if you gently caress up your first negotiation it’s not really that big of a deal because you probably weren’t going to get that much more anyways. once you’re at your first or second job hop though you should be prepared and i’d say the impact becomes that much larger every time you switch jobs my first job out of school there was effectively zero room for negotiation. second job i probably could have swung an additional $5-10k by negotiating. third job i could have swung an additional $20-35k. with my current job i could have easily left about $50k on the table or more if i didn’t know what i was doing on the other hand could i have at any point prostrated myself to the FAANGS, packed up my life to go live in silicon valley, and double or even triple my income? yeah. i didn’t and continue to not consider this because it would effectively end my social life and the things that make me happy. there’s a difference between securing the income you deserve in the lane you want to swim in vs throwing it all away to focus solely on money idk i’m just rambling now
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May 22, 2021 16:37
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if you dont wanna focus solely on money in life, youre better of squeezing the 30 minutes in life that will earn you tens of thousands of bux per hour as hard as you can and then leaving off the rest of the time. cuz thats thirty minutes every like 2-5 years
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May 22, 2021 16:48
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it's worth noting that negotiating at the FAANGS is predicated on you have a competing FAANG (or FAANG-lite) offer -- this is anecdotal to me and the people I know but they won't even entertain negotiations unless you have a competing offer because they know that they're likely already coming in significantly above your existing salary squeezing another 30k (or more) at that level is absolutely do-able but it's something you need to plan out by interviewing a bunch, it's not something you'll get by being difficult on the phone for 30 minutes
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May 22, 2021 16:49
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so i think the best place for the kind of negotiations above are the mid-level type companies who are always going to have trouble finding talent in the backdrop of the large tech co's, you'll have significantly more leverage out the gate with them
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May 22, 2021 16:50
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PIZZA.BAT posted:i mean he’s not wrong. i massively hosed up in negotiating my first two, kind of three, jobs out of school and i’ve only just now climbed out of that pit a decade later. those years of sub-optimal earnings add up they're not wrong at all, just misguided in how they've come to their conclusion and approaching it with an air of absolutism when they're really only certain of their conclusions within the context of their environment there's a huge spectrum of skill, situation, and location that all factor into how you approach comp negotiation and pretending that the process is solved for and doling out advice based on that solution because you've figured it out for the top 95% skill level in sf, when you're either single or without family obligations is navel-gazey at best
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May 22, 2021 16:53
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right, and like half the time all that is mealy mouthed justification for leaving like a house worth of money on the table, amortized over a career, figgieland prime or not, single or not it may be a house in sf worth of money or house in sane housing market worth of money, true bob dobbs is dead fucked around with this message at 17:07 on May 22, 2021 |
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May 22, 2021 16:57
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KoRMaK posted:gently caress I said a number to the CTO and they excitedly got off the call, I should have said a bigger number. Congrats man, I've been there too I'm awful at salary negotiation; even though I've read this thread for years I keep blurting out numbers to the point where my current job literally chuckled at my number and gave me way more. But the thing I do takeaway from this thread (and you maybe did too, idk how often you switch jobs) is that the only major raises you get are from job hopping and you nailed that and got a huge raise, so be happy with that. 5k more would be great but you'll get it and more on your next big move. I regret my screwed up negotiation but never forget that the move netted me a 70k+ raise.
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May 22, 2021 17:01
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bob dobbs is dead posted:right, and like half the time all that is mealy mouthed justification for leaving like a house worth of money on the table, amortized over a career, figgieland prime or not. it's also semi-cautionary the pressures that employers face around recruiting and comp in figgieland for a 20-something, top 10 cs bs is very different than an employer recruiting for a vb.net developer working on access databases in the st louis suburbs pretending that prospective employees should approach interviewing and negotiating exactly the same for both of those cases is naive as hell thankfully folks that are in the latter position aren't in this thread looking at your advice and taking it as gospel but it might be a good idea to think a little bit more about how the rest of the software industry lives and works outside of sf and/or tech majors
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May 22, 2021 17:09
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Blinkz0rz posted:they're not wrong at all, just misguided in how they've come to their conclusion and approaching it with an air of absolutism when they're really only certain of their conclusions within the context of their environment right a few years ago yospos wound up one dude to where he went promote me or i quit to his boss and then they didn’t so he did and then spent six months out of work because qa tester in orlando is not as hot as cloud engineer in figgie-lite lands most of yospos is underpaid. most of yospos should get another job. most of yospos is bad at negotiation. not naming a number first is good guidance generally. all that said, knowing your best alternatives is important
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May 22, 2021 17:09
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i really don't think there is any real disagreement happening here tbqh. ultimatums are certainly bad strategy in general.
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May 22, 2021 17:16
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yeah no one was telling him to quit his job iirc and when he made the post telling us about his ultimatum most people called him an idiot they absolutely wound him up though but tbh if it weren’t for cjs screaming at me for a year straight i would have taken a lot more time to leave my second job than i did
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May 22, 2021 17:32
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bob dobbs is dead posted:right, and like half the time all that is mealy mouthed justification for leaving like a house worth of money on the table, amortized over a career, figgieland prime or not, single or not I think what your advice needs is more context. 20 grand is such a specific number it has to be based on personal experience, so what was the starting salary, what did you talk it up to (guess you'll have to work backwards for the starting) and for what job title? That info is going to give people a lot more context for how to do this in reality because the bump you're going to get is going to be percentage based. You're not going to get a 20k bump on a 50k job, not here anyway.
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May 22, 2021 18:17
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Aramoro posted:I think what your advice needs is more context. 20 grand is such a specific number it has to be based on personal experience, so what was the starting salary, what did you talk it up to (guess you'll have to work backwards for the starting) and for what job title? my salary history is complicated and weird but my current dealio is 170k cash squeezed from 155k initial offer and 75k shares in series b dealio up from 40k in initial offer, who the gently caress knows what they're worth (i value at strike ignoring exercise, but that's not how the one time i got lucky from startup-go-round went lol). by cap table i think thats like 0.2% of company. i got a verbal agreement that they'd whack me for a refresher if they had a big very dilutive round but those are worth the paper they're written on, lol. title goes software eng i agree 20k bump on 50k job isn't happening but there's a lotta not-too-hard ways to.... get better than 50k for a software job. its yospos, i'd be singing a moderately different tune ("ask for 10k, be happy w 5k") in a different forum bob dobbs is dead fucked around with this message at 18:58 on May 22, 2021 |
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May 22, 2021 18:47
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Last two places I've been at we've always left room in the offer for the negotiation regardless of the role. Currently for instance there's the offer, there's the max that HR can counter with, then we can go to the VP of the division for anything above. Last time had to use it was an L7 SDM from Amazon coming over and it was perfectly structured for them to accept it. "Start here, they'll counter to this, and VP can we end up here?" And that's what happened over the 3 rounds.
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May 22, 2021 19:00
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GenJoe posted:it's worth noting that negotiating at the FAANGS is predicated on you have a competing FAANG (or FAANG-lite) offer -- this is anecdotal to me and the people I know but they won't even entertain negotiations unless you have a competing offer because they know that they're likely already coming in significantly above your existing salary This was not true for me at a FAANG in 2013 where, right of of a mediocre school with a 3.0 GPA, I got $+5K SOB and $5k/yr in RSUs by basically asking for it. This may or may not be true in other situations and was for a mech engineering position. I did not have a competing FAANG or a BATNA that was comparable.
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May 22, 2021 19:14
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raminasi posted:also remember that you don’t know for sure how much money you actually left on the table, if any. you might have gotten lucky and nailed their upper limit accidentally. lucky things happen sometimes! this happened with my current job, the recruiter asked during the phone screen what number i expected. i just threw out prior salary + 20%. he's like "yeah we can definitely get you that" and then the offer came in right at that number. i was absolutely convinced i goofed up and left a ton more money on the table. then a few years later some colleagues and i started talking pay and i found out that i was making way more than any of them, turned out the number i threw out in that early call was top of the band
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May 22, 2021 19:30
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CarForumPoster posted:This was not true for me at a FAANG in 2013 where, right of of a mediocre school with a 3.0 GPA, I got $+5K SOB and $5k/yr in RSUs by basically asking for it. This may or may not be true in other situations and was for a mech engineering position. I did not have a competing FAANG or a BATNA that was comparable. I just signed a remote offer with a FAANG-lite and they asked me what number I wanted to see I gave them a number and was told if I was in SF/NYC I could get that but not where I live. A day later they came back with an offer and said this is our best and final offer given your location and pay band for the title, it was like 90% of the number I asked for earlier I can't help but think I could've done better if I brought a competing FAANG offer. But I didn't go on the big interview circuit as I am still pretty convinced that, despite landing a six and a half figgie job, I am bad at what I do and would fail in an impressive manner
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May 22, 2021 19:38
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the real secret is that nobody is actually good at programming
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May 22, 2021 19:41
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bob dobbs is dead posted:my salary history is complicated and weird but my current dealio is 170k cash squeezed from 155k initial offer and 75k shares in series b dealio up from 40k in initial offer, who the gently caress knows what they're worth (i value at strike ignoring exercise, but that's not how the one time i got lucky from startup-go-round went lol). by cap table i think thats like 0.2% of company. i got a verbal agreement that they'd whack me for a refresher if they had a big very dilutive round but those are worth the paper they're written on, lol. title goes software eng sharing context and numbers is important so we and others reading can use it to gauge where they are at, so im down to share. although i hope im not exposing myself KoRMaK fucked around with this message at 19:48 on May 22, 2021 |
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May 22, 2021 19:45
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if i go for the strike valuation, its a small bonus. if i go by what the vcs paid for the last round its like 70% of my comp, after the last rounds dilution and poo poo just absolute lol
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May 22, 2021 19:58
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bob dobbs is dead posted:the real secret is that nobody is actually good at programming hardly a secret
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May 22, 2021 21:34
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anyone ever lol at making >$150k without going to med school and maybe without going to extra school at all literal life saving people make what you make for writing code that is always marching toward obsolescence, often never actually sees the light of prod not arguing against this system its just really somethin EDIT: the 25th percentile of pediatricians is $126k EDIT2: I forgot about drs fellowship prob bringing that number down in a big way, still tho CarForumPoster fucked around with this message at 22:27 on May 22, 2021 |
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May 22, 2021 22:20
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CarForumPoster posted:anyone ever lol at making >$150k without going to med school and maybe without going to extra school at all yea it’s completely and totally hosed society is set up in general that the harder you work or the more important your job, the less you get paid teacher? nurse? cleaner? gtfoh and enjoy your table scraps senior bullshit architect? take all the cash
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May 22, 2021 22:42
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they got their cartel but a counterparty cartel in the hospital admins who gently caress em over, we dont really have a cartel of our own but theres no counterparty cartel anymore after the previous one w jobs and other peeps was broken
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May 22, 2021 22:45
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CarForumPoster posted:anyone ever lol at making >$150k without going to med school and maybe without going to extra school at all I took two cracks at non IT part time undergrad (arts/commerce first time then law) and dropped out both times because my IT salary took off so fast that I'd take a big pay cut when I graduated. this 80% raise is good but you could have done better conversations would be the most ridiculous poo poo people in any other sector. its fine if you wana try to min max from 96th percentile of income to 98th percentile or whatever but keep it in perspective. Trimson Grondag 3 fucked around with this message at 02:19 on May 23, 2021 |
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May 23, 2021 02:12
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i've been having fits of jokerfied laughing at finally busting through 6 figures the last two weeks, personally
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May 23, 2021 02:36
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