The Tenth Life of BSS X-Thread: Get in, Loser! We're Going to Therapy!

The Something Awful Forums > The Finer Arts > BSS: Bisexual Super Son > The Tenth Life of BSS X-Thread: Get in, Loser! We're Going to Therapy!

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Alaois: Feb 7, 2012

sorry correction, Marvel didn't own the rights to him, he entered the public domain

# ? May 22, 2021 08:57

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# ? May 24, 2024 01:16

nemesis_hub: Nov 27, 2006

danbanana posted:

I had never read any of the Alan Davis run but I think it is being criminally overlooked when people talk about the worst X-periods. Coming in blind, I had no idea how much the loving Skrulls would play in this story. Also, he created what I am insisting is the most offensive x-character of all time.

Dude I completely agree. My brother and I used to laugh about how bad that run was and when people would bring up Chuck Austen etc I�d always think sure yes but the Davis run needs to be in contention too. Davis is of course a talented guy so maybe the poor quality of that run was due to editorial interference, which as I understand it, was a big problem in that whole period between Claremont and Morrison.

Which reminds me, I have a soft spot for the truncated Kelly/Seagle era, which no one ever talks about.

# ? May 22, 2021 11:20

Edge & Christian: May 20, 2001; Earth-1145 is truly the best!
A world of singing, magic frogs,
high adventure, no shitposters

This is also one of those weird cases of there being a loose concept of "Man wearing all white and a fedora and a surgical mask who is called Doctor [Something] that has since been established as the same character".

Doctor Nemesis in the handful of Golden Age/Ace Comics appearances is basically your standard Shadow/Batman masked vigilante who by day is a clean cut surgeon and by night is a clean cut vigilante who invented a truth serum to get the truth out of criminals and/or war saboteurs.

Doctor Death was the Roy Thomas adaptation, who claims to have helped build the Human Torch with Phineas Horton and when he didn't receive enough credit decided to ally with Hitler to make sure the Invaders/the United States never join World War II. His plan was to (while flying the Nazi flag) cause an Earthquake to destroy California and then unleash a poison gas attack to kill most of the western half of the country. I'm not sure how what seems like a blatant attack on the United States would keep it from wanting to declare war on Nazi Germany, but I'm not a doctor. Eventually some of the other members of the Battle-Axis who I guess were only Nazi sympathizers/America Firsters turned on him and killed him before he could wipe out half of America.

And then yes, Matt Fraction brought him back as the character who is currently in the X-Books. His personality, speaking style, and his position on Nazis (anti-) are all new to his X-Books appearance, but he does wear all white and a surgical mask in each iteration.

# ? May 22, 2021 12:11

danbanana: Jun 7, 2008; OG Bell's fanboi

nemesis_hub posted:

Which reminds me, I have a soft spot for the truncated Kelly/Seagle era, which no one ever talks about.

Our reading only covered one story from this (Hunt for Xavier) but it's been my favorite thing so far. I googled how long their tenure was and... Way too short is the answer, especially since it was Davis who took over after them.

# ? May 22, 2021 12:45

Dawgstar: Jul 15, 2017

Edge & Christian posted:

All of this is fundamentally correct, but it's worth noting because of how many times this seems to happen to him, Mark Waid took over Avengers with issue #400. Issue #401 was an Onslaught tie-in, and #402 was the final issue before Heroes Reborn. It's not even like his Captain America run that got cut off after ten issues for Heroes Reborn, he really seemed to just being told he can have one of his dream jobs for three issues to do janitorial work between The Crossing and Heroes Reborn.

Was Waid supposed to have a longer X-Men run?

nemesis_hub posted:

Dude I completely agree. My brother and I used to laugh about how bad that run was and when people would bring up Chuck Austen etc I�d always think sure yes but the Davis run needs to be in contention too. Davis is of course a talented guy so maybe the poor quality of that run was due to editorial interference, which as I understand it, was a big problem in that whole period between Claremont and Morrison.

The weird thing with Davis is we know he can write fun books, like his Excalibur run which is probably the book's best.

# ? May 22, 2021 14:10

How Wonderful!: Jul 18, 2006; I only have excellent ideas

He was initially brought in to draw a short run, and was eventually sort of just pressed into writing as well. The impression I have gotten over the years is that for the most part he was being handed plots and told to just get them on paper-- there was an editorial push to tie up longstanding plot-lines which didn't in practice translate into super readable comics.

Here's a little quote from Chris Bachalo about the working relationship between the writers and editorial during the Seagle/Kelly period:

quote:

While Steve Seagle and Joe Kelly were writing the main X-Men books, �the editorial climate at the time was extremely poor,� according to artist Chris Bachalo in Comics Creators On X-Men. �They kept changing story directions from issue to issue. They�d have the meeting, decide on a direction and change their minds a few months later. I think it was all very frustrating for Steve (Seagle) and Joe Kelly, the writers at the time. They were having their differences with the editorial group and I think they got completely burned out after a year. I don�t know if they were fired or if they left, but it was just a horrible situation. And it made drawing the book really difficult. We�d get working on the storyline, and then it would change and go in another direction. Steve�s last issue was also my last issue. To this day, I don�t know why I was moved.�

Chris Claremont commented on the editorial effect on the X-Men books in Wizard #85: �Eleven X-Men books is probably too much because you�re drawing from the same well of characters and events. And the sheer logic of it: I think there are more mutants in the Marvel Universe than there are other superheroes right now. It�s hard to be the downtrodden minority when you outnumber everyone else two-to-one. And also, it used to be that the X-Men were the province of one writer, one editor. Then it became two writers and two editors. Now it�s four or five editors and a half-dozen or more writers. It�s very hard to maintain a consistent tone of focus.�

�Part of me wants to write them all,� Claremont admitted. �Part of me wants to put the whole canon in my pocket, run out the door and come back each month with stories. But my value to the company is in a different direction than that. And I would rather at this point make (Fantastic Four) more exciting and successful than it is than to go back to the X-Men.�

Joe Kelly chiming in:

quote:

X-Men writer Joe Kelly commented on the change of direction and why he left the book in Wizard #90: �If somebody told me from Day One, �We�re going to work out the story and hand it to you, and you just plot it and dialogue it,� I�d have no problem with that, because it�s very up-front. When that evolves over time, it becomes frustrating.�

�Joe (Kelly) and I, along with (editor) Mark Powers, proceeded to produce two detailed, yearlong plans for the two X-books which were filled with interesting stories, sweeping long-range character arcs, shorter stories, one summer �big event� crossover, and enough marketing spikes to make any retailer happy without irritating the fans,� Uncanny X-Men writer Steve Seagle added in Wizard #90. �I was led to believe this plan had been accepted, and proceeded to start laying in the threads of these stories in the issues I was writing. Then all four tires blew out from under our wagonload of good stuff.�

�You never know what it is, but (Editor-In Chief) Bob (Harras) was answering to other people and this was a chaotic time at Marvel,� Seagle continued. �Certainly the redirected lineup � which neither Joe nor I were too happy about � I don�t think that came directly from editorial. I think that came from outside forces, whatever they may be � marketing or people above Bob, or who knows what.�

�Steve and I had a cool, magic thing going, but it wasn�t the kind of magic they were looking for, so what you get is something that falls in between their vision and our vision,� Joe Kelly added. �One of the things we definitely were going to do was split the books up and give each one a definite agenda. My team was going to include Beast running the school with the younger team members � Cannonball, the new guys, and maybe Kitty Pryde. Steve would take the �70s X-Men, which would be more active, with a more focused agenda. Cyclops was going to lead that team, with a very clear dream that was different from Xavier�s.�

�It really started to get troubling when the one character Joe and I both wanted in the book, which was Phoenix, (was something) we really fought for and we were basically told, �No,�� Seagle revealed.

�Phoenix had started expanding her powers,� Kelly added, �and there were going to be characters who had been watching since the Phoenix saga to see if the Phoenix force would return.�

And finally Alan Davis himself:

quote:

�After Kelly and Seagle left X-Men, Bob (Harras) took me aside and asked who I would choose to write it,� Chris Claremont revealed in Comics Creators On X-Men. �I suggested Alan Davis. I remember we asked him to do both books for about six months. That six-month gig turned into two years.�

�Chris Claremont phoned and asked if I�d like to pencil six issues of the X-Men?� Alan Davis recalled in Modern Masters Volume One. �Within about a week and a half of this, I realized there was something going on at Marvel, something political. I still don�t know the full story. It was between Joe Kelly and Mark Powers, and I think Steven Seagle was involved, but I didn�t really have anything to do with him. Only a few weeks after beginning pencilling, Mark Powers phoned and said Joe Kelly and Steven Seagle had quit, and asked if I�d help out by plotting the next issue. I said I would and sent a plot in. Mark phoned and said they really liked the plot and would I plot Uncanny as well? So I said okay, and then it was, �Can you plot next month�s as well?� I said there was no way I could manage to do the dialogue, so I just continued pencilling one and plotting both X-Men titles and suddenly 18 months had passed and I�d pencilled 11 issues and plotted 24 or more. I had sorted out all of the continuity stuff Mark had wanted so all the titles could be integrated � but there were a lot of new writers resisting the new line. More politics!�

�Mark Powers gave me lists of characters and events that had to be introduced or resolved to tie in with other titles,� Alan Davis added. �It was complicated because the other editors and writers didn�t want to play ball. It got very messy. Working on X-Men was my most �professional� writing, in that I was problem-solving rather than coming up with ideas that I would have chosen.�

I don't begrudge him getting paid and under the circumstances I feel like it would be very difficult to actually make great comics. But yeah, they're a pretty dire stretch of issues.

How Wonderful! fucked around with this message at 14:55 on May 22, 2021

# ? May 22, 2021 14:50

Gologle: Apr 15, 2013; The Gologle Posting Experience.

<3

I don't remember anything about Claremont's F4, but that might be because I didn't read it

# ? May 22, 2021 15:06

Dawgstar: Jul 15, 2017

Gologle posted:

I don't remember anything about Claremont's F4, but that might be because I didn't read it

It's all late stage Claremont and not very interesting, although I think that's where we get Valeria Richards from.

# ? May 22, 2021 15:37

Edge & Christian: May 20, 2001; Earth-1145 is truly the best!
A world of singing, magic frogs,
high adventure, no shitposters

Dawgstar posted:

Was Waid supposed to have a longer X-Men run?

Yes and no? From the contemporary announcement/article in Wizard #60:

quote:

Mark Waid -- citing incompatability with fellow writer Scott Lobdell -- has decided to leave the X-Men after a six issue stint.

"It just wasn't working out," Waid said. "Scott Lobdell and I, as it turned out to our mutual horror, are completely incompatible as writers. [...] Scott and I just don't build stories in the same way," said Waid. "We don't look for the same thing in stories, we just have a difference in approach. I think it started to show up about halfway through my run, and it goes increasingly worse. Unfortunately, one of us had to go, and Scott's got a fat contract at Marvel so I left."

"I think I write the plot around characters," explained Lobdell, "whereas [Waid's] tendency is to try and shoehorn characters into the plot."

Lobdell apparently escalated things up to "scathing comments about Waid" in some 1996-1997 interviews I can't find, and the Waid ones I can find mostly just allude to how Waid gave Lobdell his first writing gig in comics when Waid was a DC editor in the late 1980s and how much he regrets that decision. Even though this interview keeps calling him "Scott Lobell", Waid is being circumspect but clearly has hard feelings towards Lobdell/Harras.

I also did not realize until going back to look for more specifics how Waid was brought in after Fabian Nicieza resigned from the X-Men books citing how he felt burnt out and while it was "monetarily rewarding" writing X-Men, it was creatively draining and he wanted to do something he actually enjoyed. Nicieza would later go on to say he was fired for not being a good creative fit with Lobdell and wasn't given any specifics, but was "allowed" to say he was leaving of his own decision.

The ongoing pattern of people (except Lobdell) leaving the X-Books when Bob Harras was running them because they just weren't working out is kind of impressive looking back on it, especially with the knowledge that eventually Harras would end up in power at DC in the 2000s and bring in Lobdell repeatedly there, too.

# ? May 22, 2021 15:55

How Wonderful!: Jul 18, 2006; I only have excellent ideas

Edge & Christian posted:

Yes and no? From the contemporary announcement/article in Wizard #60:

Lobdell apparently escalated things up to "scathing comments about Waid" in some 1996-1997 interviews I can't find, and the Waid ones I can find mostly just allude to how Waid gave Lobdell his first writing gig in comics when Waid was a DC editor in the late 1980s and how much he regrets that decision. Even though this interview keeps calling him "Scott Lobell", Waid is being circumspect but clearly has hard feelings towards Lobdell/Harras.

I was just looking for those interviews, I feel like in the early aughts they were referenced fairly often and I feel like I have to have read them at some point, but yeah, they're weirdly tricky to hunt down in 2021!

# ? May 22, 2021 16:24

Diet Poison: Jan 20, 2008; LICK MY ASS

rantmo posted:

Is anyone else reading Dr. Nemesis in Way of X with the voice of Dr. Krieger or is it just me?

Yes, always have, glad to not be alone in this.

# ? May 22, 2021 16:37

TwoPair: Mar 28, 2010; Pandamn It Feels Good To Be A Gangsta; Grimey Drawer

General X-question: Can mutants have non-mutant kids or are they 100% guaranteed mutants?

# ? May 23, 2021 07:37

Aphrodite: Jun 27, 2006

TwoPair posted:

General X-question: Can mutants have non-mutant kids or are they 100% guaranteed mutants?

Yes. Mystique and Sabretooth�s kid isn�t a mutant.

Quicksilver and Crystal�s daughter too but that one gets complicated with her mother being an inhuman and Quicksilver retconned. At the time, it was said her parents canceled each other out.

It�s canonically very rare.

Aphrodite fucked around with this message at 08:00 on May 23, 2021

# ? May 23, 2021 07:50

Dawgstar: Jul 15, 2017

Aphrodite posted:

Quicksilver and Crystal�s daughter too but that one gets complicated with her mother being an inhuman and Quicksilver retconned. At the time, it was said her parents canceled each other out.

And apparently Luna has powers now. I'm not sure how, I just heard it happened in Slott's FF so my interest in finding out more is less than great.

# ? May 23, 2021 13:14

Edge & Christian: May 20, 2001; Earth-1145 is truly the best!
A world of singing, magic frogs,
high adventure, no shitposters

Dawgstar posted:

And apparently Luna has powers now. I'm not sure how, I just heard it happened in Slott's FF so my interest in finding out more is less than great.

Pietro exposed Luna to the Terrigen Mists in the Son of M mini-series back in 2006, which gave her empathic powers (the ability to sense/alter emotions). I don't believe she's appeared at all in Slott's Fantastic Four.

# ? May 23, 2021 13:29

Codependent Poster: Oct 20, 2003

She was in the last issue

# ? May 23, 2021 17:30

Edge & Christian: May 20, 2001; Earth-1145 is truly the best!
A world of singing, magic frogs,
high adventure, no shitposters

Codependent Poster posted:

She was in the last issue

I had not seen that, and she does mention her powers. I was (I think) misreading the statement as "heard it happened in Slott FF" was a reference to how she got powers, not that they had heard that she had powers by reading a mention of her powers in Slott FF.

# ? May 23, 2021 17:59

Aphrodite: Jun 27, 2006

So is it just that it turns out she's inhuman after all, or...?

# ? May 23, 2021 18:15

Dawgstar: Jul 15, 2017

Aphrodite posted:

So is it just that it turns out she's inhuman after all, or...?

Sort of. Inhuman enough for the Mists to proc her powers, anyway.

# ? May 24, 2021 00:36

Air Skwirl: May 13, 2007; Neither snow nor rain nor heat nor gloom of night stays these couriers from the swift completion of their appointed shitposting.

I never actually read the book where it was retconned that Pietro and Wanda weren't Magneto's kids, what are they if they aren't mutants? Inhumans? something else?

# ? May 24, 2021 02:41

Aphrodite: Jun 27, 2006

Skwirl posted:

I never actually read the book where it was retconned that Pietro and Wanda weren't Magneto's kids, what are they if they aren't mutants? Inhumans? something else?

First it was that the High Evolutionary did it, but it's been re-retconned that Wanda was born with innate magic talent and the High Evolutionary just boosted it.

Quicksilver seems to be entirely a result of High Evolutionary though (or nobody bothered to update his Wikipedia lol.)

So officially Mutate since that's everything that's a human with powers in Marvel.

# ? May 24, 2021 02:49

Gaz-L: Jan 28, 2009

In fairness, that part with Wanda is pretty close to the MCU explanation as well, just with the Mind Stone filling in for ol' Evvy.

# ? May 24, 2021 03:29

Air Skwirl: May 13, 2007; Neither snow nor rain nor heat nor gloom of night stays these couriers from the swift completion of their appointed shitposting.

I honestly suspect in the next 5 years Pietro and Wanda will become Magneto's kids again

# ? May 24, 2021 03:37

gimme the GOD DAMN candy: Jul 1, 2007

it'll happen once krakoa is dead and gone for a while, so probably more like 10 years.

# ? May 24, 2021 12:29

TwoPair: Mar 28, 2010; Pandamn It Feels Good To Be A Gangsta; Grimey Drawer

I really hope not because I really want to see Magneto try to explain to Wanda why he let a bunch of kids be indoctrinated into seeing her as their Satan figure.

# ? May 25, 2021 03:52

OnimaruXLR: Sep 15, 2007; Lurklurklurklurklurk

"Why does no one mention that the only reason I lost control was because you killed Pietro?!"
"Why does no one mention that time Xavier molested Moonstar when they talk about how evil I am? People don't mention a lot of things, Wanda."

# ? May 25, 2021 05:20

Rick: Feb 23, 2004; When I was 17, my father was so stupid, I didn't want to be seen with him in public. When I was 24, I was amazed at how much the old man had learned in just 7 years.

I love the heavily early 90s art references in X-Men #17. It my got me right in the nostalgia.

# ? May 25, 2021 09:04

danbanana: Jun 7, 2008; OG Bell's fanboi

Rick posted:

I love the heavily early 90s art references in X-Men #17. It my got me right in the nostalgia.

Reminder that Brett Booth is a bad person.

https://www.comicsxf.com/2021/01/26/why-comicsxf-is-not-covering-brett-booths-comics/

# ? May 25, 2021 14:37

Protagorean: May 19, 2013; by Azathoth

was anyone else disappointed that when Legion came back, he didn't talk to Proteus (or what passes for speech between two Scots anyways)? or Kevin could have objected to Chuck's justification for breaking "Krakoa Is For All Mutants" because everything Chuck said applies to him as well

# ? May 26, 2021 08:47

Kingtheninja: Jul 29, 2004; "You're the best looking guy here."

Great stuff today, really like new mutants. Also, bring on the inferno.

# ? May 26, 2021 14:34

gimme the GOD DAMN candy: Jul 1, 2007

why does karma still have a prosthetic leg?

# ? May 26, 2021 14:36

Happy Noodle Boy: Jul 3, 2002

Jesus Christ, Charles. Could you try being less of an rear end in a top hat?

# ? May 26, 2021 14:45

Dawgstar: Jul 15, 2017

Happy Noodle Boy posted:

Jesus Christ, Charles. Could you try being less of an rear end in a top hat?

Sure doesn't sound like Charles.

# ? May 26, 2021 14:49

Quotey: Aug 16, 2006; We went out for lunch and then we stopped for some bubble tea.

oh my god oh my god oh my god

we're finally kicking things into gear

the books at the end are Destiny's diaries of future events

# ? May 26, 2021 15:04

danbanana: Jun 7, 2008; OG Bell's fanboi

Quotey posted:

the books at the end are Destiny's diaries of future events

I read that spoiler even though I'm a few weeks behind on books and YESSSSSSSS. The Mystique-related things are 2nd only to Moira in terms of things I want all Krakoa stories to be about.

Also, the original discovery of those (in THE SHATTERING storyline, which sucks) is one of the most anti-climactic things in X-history.

# ? May 26, 2021 15:14

Quotey: Aug 16, 2006; We went out for lunch and then we stopped for some bubble tea.

danbanana posted:

I read that spoiler even though I'm a few weeks behind on books and YESSSSSSSS. The Mystique-related things are 2nd only to Moira in terms of things I want all Krakoa stories to be about.

Also, the original discovery of those (in THE SHATTERING storyline, which sucks) is one of the most anti-climactic things in X-history.

yeah, you're going to love xmen 20 when you get to it then.

Quotey fucked around with this message at 15:29 on May 26, 2021

# ? May 26, 2021 15:18

bobkatt013: Oct 8, 2006; Youâre telling me Peter Parker is ...... Spider-man!?

Protagorean posted:

was anyone else disappointed that when Legion came back, he didn't talk to Proteus (or what passes for speech between two Scots anyways)? or Kevin could have objected to Chuck's justification for breaking "Krakoa Is For All Mutants" because everything Chuck said applies to him as well

He is one of the 5 so he is beyond all the rules

# ? May 26, 2021 18:20