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Owlofcreamcheese posted:That feels like it describes a lot of different groups and organizations in palestine but hamas? Hamas seems like a purely bad for everyone organization. It doesn't seem like there would ever be a world they were looked fondly on. It doesn't seem like there would ever be a world they were looked fondly on by Americans, yes, but the Palestinians have more pressing concerns than whether the American authorities supporting Israeli expansion are happy with Palestine's local leadership. Owlofcreamcheese posted:I'm not dodging it. The answer is "any of the many other political groups that does operate or has operated in palestine" Hamas is not some inseparable thing inherent to palestine. It's a recent, regional takeover. It's not some "the only way" for palestine. So which one do you think is capable of establishing popular support among the Palestinian people and providing effective resistance to Israeli expansionism, while also keeping militant groups under control and ruling in a way you find acceptable. Give us an example. I must admit I don't know much about the smaller Palestinian factions, because to my knowledge they're all tiny and unimportant groups with relatively little public support and political influence compared to Hamas and Fatah. The only one that's even on my radar is Islamic Jihad, whom I suspect would be unlikely to meet your standards. One of the biggest lessons to take away from fifty years of US foreign policy is that it doesn't matter how much a group's policies appeal to American sensibilities if they don't have the capability to win public support and govern on their own. You can't just hope to slot the DFLP or the PFLP into Gaza in place of Hamas, because if they were actually able to control Gaza, they wouldn't be so sidelined in the first place. Before you go picking through the minor players to determine which one you think would be the best one to run the Palestinian territories, you need to ask yourself why those minor factions have remained so minor. Obviously, I'm rejecting idealism here, because it often comes down to nothing more than wishful thinking with no actual basis in reality. But you know what? If I could wave a magic wand and cause a single political change in the Palestinian territories for the purpose of improving the lives of the Palestinian people, "removing Hamas" wouldn't even be in my top three choices. It'd be in the list, sure. Considering the relative power balance, removing Israeli dominance over the Palestinian territories would not only do much more to immediately help the Palestinian people, it would also likely reduce Hamas' public support. People are more willing to accept domestic oppression when it's seen as the only effective way to combat far worse foreign oppression.
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May 22, 2021 21:59
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Tweezer Reprise posted:Arabs can vote in Israel if they're citizens. (not nationals, that's a status reserved for Jewish people) I don't think it matters in the same sense it doesn't matter to the underlying structures in the US, but isn't there even an Arab person on the Israel Supreme Court? yeah they're like 20% of the Israeli population (considerably more than the settlers in the west bank, and with much less political power, lol) Israel fairly regularly fucks with their various parties, but eg the Arab List is not banned and Arab Israelis can vote Zedhe Khoja posted:Release Sadat imo, maybe he can off Abbas and the Palestinian left won't just sit on their rear end as their people and country are wiped off the map. I assume you're not talking about hiring a necromancer to bring back the Egyptian guy. oh i see, this dude https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ahmad_Sa%27adat Goatse James Bond fucked around with this message at 23:08 on May 22, 2021 |
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May 22, 2021 22:46
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Cefte posted:It's certainly a more 'open' question than the Bad Business, but the Baghdad bombings of '50-51 are worth taking a look at, if you're not already familiar. I wasn't aware of those, cheers for the heads up. I'll look into it. Tweezer Reprise posted:Arabs can vote in Israel if they're citizens. (not nationals, that's a status reserved for Jewish people) I don't think it matters in the same sense it doesn't matter to the underlying structures in the US, but isn't there even an Arab person on the Israel Supreme Court? The issue is the all the Palestinians in Gaza and the West Bank who can't vote because they're not citizens and can't become one. Afaik there are about 20k Palestinians who live in Eastern Jerusalem and are also Israeli citizens, but if you live in the west bank/gaza there's literally no way you're getting Israeli citizenship.
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May 22, 2021 23:14
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Tweezer Reprise posted:Arabs can vote in Israel if they're citizens. (not nationals, that's a status reserved for Jewish people) I don't think it matters in the same sense it doesn't matter to the underlying structures in the US, but isn't there even an Arab person on the Israel Supreme Court? It's a matter of numbers. If the population of Gaza were given voting rights in Israel, that would more than double the number of Arabs allowed to vote in Israeli elections. And the West Bank has even more non-Jews in it than Israel does. Altogether, those three groups sum up to about 6.6 million people. Contrast that against the 6.9 million Israeli Jews, and it would be virtually impossible to deny them significant political influence without getting pretty openly undemocratic. And that's not even counting the millions of people in the Palestinian diaspora who hope to someday return. Allowing voting rights to a token portion of the Arab population under Israeli control is easy when it's 20% of the population; that's a grouping that can be easily marginalized. If that group became 40% of the population, Israel would go full fascist in an instant to deny them any real influence.
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May 22, 2021 23:35
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Main Paineframe posted:Altogether, those three groups sum up to about 6.6 million people. Contrast that against the 6.9 million Israeli Jews, and it would be virtually impossible to deny them significant political influence without getting pretty openly undemocratic. GETTING openly undemocratic? How is denying the franchise any better than whatever alternative measures could be taken? Also, yes, the Arab Joint List has never been part of a coalition, nor any precursor or splinter parties specifically intended to provide representation for the disenfranchised Arab population. There's pretty clearly a handshake agreement between every party that matters that allying with the AJL or anyone else Arabic on equal terms is prohibited, and it's hard to really imagine them feeling a need to formalize it when it's already the de facto law of the land between all the meaningful political players.
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May 23, 2021 00:04
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Owlofcreamcheese posted:I'm not dodging it. The answer is "any of the many other political groups that does operate or has operated in palestine" Hamas is not some inseparable thing inherent to palestine. It's a recent, regional takeover. It's not some "the only way" for palestine. Haha, you mealy-mouthed oval office. *Edit* I will gladly take a a probe for rightfully calling you out as a disingenuous coward. gently caress off A Terrible Person fucked around with this message at 00:19 on May 23, 2021 |
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May 23, 2021 00:17
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Owlofcreamcheese posted:I'm not dodging it. The answer is "any of the many other political groups that does operate or has operated in palestine" Hamas is not some inseparable thing inherent to palestine. It's a recent, regional takeover. It's not some "the only way" for palestine. The only way forward is to turn tel aviv to glass, inshallah
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May 23, 2021 00:22
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A Terrible Person posted:Haha, you mealy-mouthed oval office. Finally, someone brave enough to call out oocc
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May 23, 2021 00:34
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So what are voting rights for Palestinians in Israel like? How many of them can vote exactly?
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May 23, 2021 00:44
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Miftan posted:The issue is the all the Palestinians in Gaza and the West Bank who can't vote because they're not citizens and can't become one. Afaik there are about 20k Palestinians who live in Eastern Jerusalem and are also Israeli citizens, but if you live in the west bank/gaza there's literally no way you're getting Israeli citizenship. 1. Most Eastern Jerusalem Arab \ Palestinian residents aren't citizens. Over the past decade, more and more of the younger generation has caved in and decided to claim the citizenship that was, in theory, always available to them. Faced with the prospect of tens of thousands new Arab citizens, the Ministry of Interior has used its considerable bureaucratic powers to confuse, delay and deny their applications, with some waiting for over half a decade to receive their citizenship. 2. Also, Gaza \ West Bank residents are the only people in the world who don't get to acquire residence \ citizenship in Israel by marrying an Israel resident \ citizen. In fact, going back to our beloved Ministry of Interior \ other immigration authorities, you can both be a West Bank \ Gaza strip resident for the purpose of denying you legal status in Israel based on your marriage, and not a West Bank \ Gaza strip resident for the purpose of denying your re-entry into these territories after several years spent abroad. punk rebel ecks posted:So what are voting rights for Palestinians in Israel like? How many of them can vote exactly? Despite Bibi consistently blaring that dog siren about Arab citizens votes not be really legitimate, I don't think their right to vote is denied in any meaningful way. You generally have poll locations in even the most remote areas. Not sure about "illegal" villages? Residents, on the other hand, don't get to vote in Knesset elections. See above re: the state maintaining this situation. "Palestinians" in the West Bank and Gaza are not residents or citizens, and don't have a path to residence or citizenship. They don't get to vote in Israeli elections. Xander77 fucked around with this message at 17:53 on Oct 9, 2023 |
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May 23, 2021 00:50
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How do Palestinians gain "citizenship"?
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May 23, 2021 01:23
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Internet Explorer posted:Just in case anyone wanted the full video. I know this was posted 3 days ago but I'm just getting caught up on this thread. Holy gently caress this video is vile.
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May 23, 2021 01:41
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vuk83 posted:Most of the Israeli population are military reservists. Bye some of the justification that Israel uses, that makes most of the Israeli population targets Isn't there a draft or mandatory service for Israeli citizens?
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May 23, 2021 01:45
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punk rebel ecks posted:How do Palestinians gain "citizenship"? As a rule, they don't. But when Israel declared independence, there was an Arab population there (obviously). While some people fled and became refugees, a lot didn't, and those people and their descendants are the Israeli Arabs, and have citizenship. Also, while not Arabs, the Druze of the Golan Heights have the right to claim Israeli citizenship, but a lot of haven't taken it, because they still consider themselves Syrians.
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May 23, 2021 01:46
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Epicurius posted:As a rule, they don't. But when Israel declared independence, there was an Arab population there (obviously). While some people fled and became refugees, a lot didn't, and those people and their descendants are the Israeli Arabs, and have citizenship. So all of the Palestinians that the Isrealis have displaced but still live on the new "Israel" land can't vote or gain citzenship?
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May 23, 2021 01:51
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punk rebel ecks posted:So all of the Palestinians that the Isrealis have displaced but still live on the new "Israel" land can't vote or gain citzenship? Right, instead they get to vote in the completely theoretical Palestinian elections for a government that Israel doesn't recognize the authority of: they haven't even happened lately because Fatah doesn't want to hold them in the West Bank and Hamas winning in Gaza would do nothing to legitimize them for Israel or their allies anyway Edit: and even if Israel chose to extend the franchise to some select Palestinians, it wouldn't matter because all the extant Israeli parties would rather cede power to a criminal than form a functioning government with the Arab Joint List for even just long enough to put him in prison BougieBitch fucked around with this message at 02:14 on May 23, 2021 |
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May 23, 2021 02:11
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punk rebel ecks posted:So all of the Palestinians that the Isrealis have displaced but still live on the new "Israel" land can't vote or gain citzenship? Right. When Israel granted citizenship after the '49 war, it was only to people within those borders, and after the '67 war, they didn't distinguish legally between natives of the West Bank/Gaza, and refugees from Israel. When Jordan annexed the West Bank in '49, they gave people in the West Bank Jordanian citizenship, but then in 1988, Jordan withdrew their claims to the West Bank and removed citizenship from citizens of the West Bank.
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May 23, 2021 02:22
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BougieBitch posted:Right, instead they get to vote in the completely theoretical Palestinian elections for a government that Israel doesn't recognize the authority of: they haven't even happened lately because Fatah doesn't want to hold them in the West Bank and Hamas winning in Gaza would do nothing to legitimize them for Israel or their allies anyway Epicurius posted:Right. When Israel granted citizenship after the '49 war, it was only to people within those borders, and after the '67 war, they didn't distinguish legally between natives of the West Bank/Gaza, and refugees from Israel. When Jordan annexed the West Bank in '49, they gave people in the West Bank Jordanian citizenship, but then in 1988, Jordan withdrew their claims to the West Bank and removed citizenship from citizens of the West Bank. Israel is LITERALLY South Africa.
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May 23, 2021 03:16
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Crosby B. Alfred posted:Isn't there a draft or mandatory service for Israeli citizens? Yes. But if Israel is 'legally justified' in doing obvious war crimes (Collective Punishment, and deliberately attacking Hospitals / Schools are war crimes) because they claim Hamas is using Hospitals and Schools as shields. Then indiscriminately attacking population centers is also 'legally justified' because Israel hides their entire military reserve behind children and the elderly. Infidelicious fucked around with this message at 05:36 on May 23, 2021 |
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May 23, 2021 05:30
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Sorry for the intrusion but what is reason behind the Hamas rocket attacks? Netenyahu seems to be in the fight of his life as his crimes catch up to him, why would they give him a victory that will put all of that at risk?
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May 23, 2021 06:47
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Mehrunes posted:Sorry for the intrusion but what is reason behind the Hamas rocket attacks? Netenyahu seems to be in the fight of his life as his crimes catch up to him, why would they give him a victory that will put all of that at risk? Oh i dont know, Israel is bombing children for the thousandth time and commits Kristallnacht every day? Most Israeli PMs go to jail so whats the difference now?
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May 23, 2021 07:50
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Mehrunes posted:Sorry for the intrusion but what is reason behind the Hamas rocket attacks? Netenyahu seems to be in the fight of his life as his crimes catch up to him, why would they give him a victory that will put all of that at risk? Specifically this time, Israel has been demolishing Palestinian homes in East Jerusalem and building new Israeli ones on top, ethnically cleansing the people who live there, and shot up the Al-Aqsa mosque on the last day of Ramadan (the holiest building on the holiest day), for similar reasons. Bibi had it shot up again as soon as the ceasefire went through. Netanyahu going to jail would be cool, but it doesn't really help Palestine because Israel is not going to elect someone who will do fewer war crimes. Bibi's troubles are all general corruption poo poo, no one is coming at him for being genocidal.
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May 23, 2021 09:02
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Mehrunes posted:Sorry for the intrusion but what is reason behind the Hamas rocket attacks? Netenyahu seems to be in the fight of his life as his crimes catch up to him, why would they give him a victory that will put all of that at risk? If Netanyahu goes to prison how does that help the people living in Gaza? Because nobody who is going to command a majority in this parliament is in favour of ending the blockade, of allowing Gazans the time and resources necessary to begin the long recovery necessary to make Gaza liveable. Nevermind ending the suffering of Palestinians in the West Bank, where Hamas has been gaining crowd as Fatah act more and more like a collaborationist government. Weirdly, Palestinians get pretty mad when the Israelis lob tear gas grenades into the Al-Aqsa Mosque at the same time that Israeli citizens are trying to cleanse an East Jerusalem neighbourhood of its Palestinian residents.
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May 23, 2021 09:36
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People who do want to end the blockade of Gaza consistently get under 20% of MKs and to the best of my knowledge have never been in government.
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May 23, 2021 09:55
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Didn't God set some ground rules for Israel?
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May 23, 2021 10:04
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Miftan posted:People who do want to end the blockade of Gaza consistently get under 20% of MKs and to the best of my knowledge have never been in government. Yeah this is something that I don't think Liberal Zionism can ever reckon with. You can say Bibi's a shithead crook, and yes, it's true, and you can say the government of Israel is bad, and it's also true, but the reality is that the majority of enfranchised Israeli citizens are absolute loving chuds. Much like our own chuds here in the US, you can make a real case that they were shaped into that by powers larger than themselves, but it doesn't change the reality that Israel as currently constituted is never going to elect its way out of fascist ethnocracy
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May 23, 2021 10:44
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TheIncredulousHulk posted:Yeah this is something that I don't think Liberal Zionism can ever reckon with. You can say Bibi's a shithead crook, and yes, it's true, and you can say the government of Israel is bad, and it's also true, but the reality is that the majority of enfranchised Israeli citizens are absolute loving chuds. Much like our own chuds here in the US, you can make a real case that they were shaped into that by powers larger than themselves, but it doesn't change the reality that Israel as currently constituted is never going to elect its way out of fascist ethnocracy Are there any examples of anywhere ever voting itself out of fascism/ethnocentrism without foreign military intervention? Those systems are designed to keep the people on top that way regardless of anything else.
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May 23, 2021 11:01
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Miftan posted:Are there any examples of anywhere ever voting itself out of fascism/ethnocentrism without foreign military intervention? Those systems are designed to keep the people on top that way regardless of anything else. Not that I know of. I don't think Israel is at all unique in that regard
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May 23, 2021 11:04
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Miftan posted:Are there any examples of anywhere ever voting itself out of fascism/ethnocentrism without foreign military intervention? Those systems are designed to keep the people on top that way regardless of anything else. I guess you could say South Africa did something along those lines - with the caveat that it took decades of political pressure, terrorist attacks, and global sanctions to reach a tipping point. And they're still a deeply messed-up society
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May 23, 2021 11:12
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Failed Imagineer posted:I guess you could say South Africa did something along those lines - with the caveat that it took decades of political pressure, terrorist attacks, and global sanctions to reach a tipping point. And they're still a deeply messed-up society They also had significant military intervention from Cuba, didn't they?
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May 23, 2021 11:19
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Only if you wanna include stuff like the 2020 US election in that calculus, I think.
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May 23, 2021 11:19
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Miftan posted:They also had significant military intervention from Cuba, didn't they? Afaik they were both involved in the Angolan civil war but that was "just* a Cold War proxy battle thing Failed Imagineer fucked around with this message at 11:45 on May 23, 2021 |
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May 23, 2021 11:25
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Miftan posted:Are there any examples of anywhere ever voting itself out of fascism/ethnocentrism without foreign military intervention? Those systems are designed to keep the people on top that way regardless of anything else. Not without constant terrorism and foreign pressure to "vote" the fascists out of living, no.
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May 23, 2021 14:06
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Spain did a pretty good job of minimizing violence, maybe the best out-of-fascism transition I can think of. But  And we thought punching fascists was cool
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May 23, 2021 14:11
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Got into a political argument IRL (been a hot minute). Somehow things moved to "isn't life great for Israeli Arabs?" Anyone got a breakdown of differences in municipal expenses, legal Arab town \ villages, "illegal" ones (and why exactly so many are classified as illegal) where and how a Bedouin (for example) may purchase land in Israel etc?
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May 23, 2021 14:50
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punk rebel ecks posted:Israel is LITERALLY South Africa. Yeah, the "Apartheid" in the thread title is not an exaggeration or a rhetorical flourish (neither is the "genocide")
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May 23, 2021 14:57
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BougieBitch posted:GETTING openly undemocratic? How is denying the franchise any better than whatever alternative measures could be taken? Also, yes, the Arab Joint List has never been part of a coalition, nor any precursor or splinter parties specifically intended to provide representation for the disenfranchised Arab population. There's pretty clearly a handshake agreement between every party that matters that allying with the AJL or anyone else Arabic on equal terms is prohibited, and it's hard to really imagine them feeling a need to formalize it when it's already the de facto law of the land between all the meaningful political players. The point is "openly" undemocratic, as opposed to this wink-nudge poo poo where they performatively grant the franchise to a small enough group of Arabs to marginalize. They wouldn't be able to gentlemen's-agreement their way into silently denying the Arab parties coalition opportunities if the Arab parties held 40% of the seats in the Knesset; in that case, they would have to use more explicit and obvious means to deny Palestinians political representation.
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May 23, 2021 16:31
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Xander77 posted:Got into a political argument IRL (been a hot minute). Somehow things moved to "isn't life great for Israeli Arabs?" "Municipal expenses"? Please tell me that wasn't the angle that the person you were talking to went with.
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May 23, 2021 16:54
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Anyone hear about this? Supposedly some Israeli settlement advocates backed by Israeli police stormed Al Aqsa, but I can only find one source on it that I do not recognize.
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May 23, 2021 17:39
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Yawgmoft posted:Anyone hear about this? Supposedly some Israeli settlement advocates backed by Israeli police stormed Al Aqsa, but I can only find one source on it that I do not recognize. Al-Jazeera has it as well. If you're having trouble, though, you might have been using the wrong search terms, because rhetoric varies widely on this stuff and the details get quite muddled. The fact is that stuff like this happens on a pretty regular basis. The thing is that Israeli Jews - including settlers - are generally allowed to visit Al-Aqsa. It's not really a big deal, normally. However, far-right groups often make a point of organizing mass visits to protest the mosque's existence, jeer at Muslims, or just generally pick fights and stir up trouble. When the Israeli police find out about these planned visits, they act quickly to prevent the settlers from provoking violence...by sending in a heavy police presence to guard the settlers, while restricting Palestinian entry and forcibly driving out any Palestinians that are there. Because they're only really interested in protecting Jews and restricting Palestinians, so even when they recognize that the far-right visitors are going to cause trouble, they remove the possibility for trouble by forcing the Palestinians out of the picture so that the troublemakers don't have anyone to fight with. https://www.aljazeera.com/amp/news/2021/5/23/backed-by-israeli-police-jewish-settlers-storm-al-aqsa-compound quote:Dozens of Jewish settlers, flanked by heavily armed Israeli special forces, entered the Al-Aqsa Mosque compound in occupied East Jerusalem in the early morning, further raising tensions hours after Palestinian worshippers were beaten and assaulted by Israeli police, according to the Islamic authority overseeing the site.
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May 23, 2021 18:41
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