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I think the toughest part of getting a handle on Defect is figuring out how much deck bloat you can live with - it's easy to feel like you got a really good orb card from your first or second fight so now you want to be all in on orbs, then not get enough support in the rest of act 1 and you've doomed yourself. There are some really good orb-free attacks in there that might have seen you through if you'd taken them instead of holding out for more orb support. The only thing I'm willing to take as a strong early signal anymore is reprogram - if I can pull that as my first card pick, orbs can gently caress off for the rest of the run I'm all in on reprogram. It's just ludicrously strong with all the discard-to-hand and deck searching Defect can do.
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May 23, 2021 18:30
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Tau Wedel posted:I've been trying to get a handle on the Defect. I'm not sure if it's more powerful than the Ironclad and the Silent overall, but the power is definitely much more unevenly distributed. The entire orb theme is built around cards that are weak on their own but become more useful if you can take advantage of various synergies, and there's cards like Heatsinks and Storm that do nothing unless you can get some more power cards. Don't sleep on cheap block early game. Auto-shields (the one that adds like 14 block if you have none), steam barrier, and even leap can buy you the time it takes to set up. They're perfect for hallways, which may be wear you feel like you're getting worn down. Sure, you could pray for bites or bird faced urn, but that handful of health could also be compensated by some of the relatively powerful blocking cards that defect has access to, even if they don't synergize with the other cards in your deck except as a way to buy some time.
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May 23, 2021 19:02
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One thing that definitely changed the way I play defect is that I rest a lot more on that class. Upgrades aren't nearly as necessary since a Defect will get to the point of winning the fight as long as it can survive the setup.
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May 23, 2021 19:11
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Irony.or.Death posted:I think the toughest part of getting a handle on Defect is figuring out how much deck bloat you can live with - it's easy to feel like you got a really good orb card from your first or second fight so now you want to be all in on orbs, then not get enough support in the rest of act 1 and you've doomed yourself. There are some really good orb-free attacks in there that might have seen you through if you'd taken them instead of holding out for more orb support. I have actually been picking some of the non-orb attacks (Sweeping Beam, Melter and Streamline in particular, and I got some good use out of Sunder in one run), but you're right, I should be more willing to just give up on orbs if I don't get enough support early on. I've been prioritizing cards like Defragment and Consume because focus is so important for orb strategies, but in some runs it would probably have been better to think of orbs as an occasional minor bonus rather than the main strategy. Irony.or.Death posted:The only thing I'm willing to take as a strong early signal anymore is reprogram - if I can pull that as my first card pick, orbs can gently caress off for the rest of the run I'm all in on reprogram. It's just ludicrously strong with all the discard-to-hand and deck searching Defect can do. Makes sense, it's a very blatant "do this thing, not this other thing" kind of card, and strength is obviously powerful with the zero-cost attacks like FTL and Beam Cell. Cpt_Obvious posted:Don't sleep on cheap block early game. Auto-shields (the one that adds like 14 block if you have none), steam barrier, and even leap can buy you the time it takes to set up. They're perfect for hallways, which may be wear you feel like you're getting worn down. Sure, you could pray for bites or bird faced urn, but that handful of health could also be compensated by some of the relatively powerful blocking cards that defect has access to, even if they don't synergize with the other cards in your deck except as a way to buy some time. I'll keep that in mind, thanks. I'm still a bit too focused on picking damage-dealing cards in most of Act 1, because that's what works for the Ironclad and the Silent. I hadn't really been thinking much about Steam Barrier, but now that you mention it it's suddenly obvious to me that it's designed precisely to provide protection while you get your orbs and powers set up. Zero-cost block that gets weaker in the long run. I really should have realized that. WarpedLichen posted:One thing that definitely changed the way I play defect is that I rest a lot more on that class. Upgrades aren't nearly as necessary since a Defect will get to the point of winning the fight as long as it can survive the setup. That makes sense. There's still some cards where I'd want to prioritize upgrading (Defragment and Genetic Algorithm in particular), but I have had some late-game situations where I was at full health but the only upgrades available amounted to 3-4 extra points of damage. I might have been able to rest earlier and still have time to get the important cards upgraded.
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May 23, 2021 19:34
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Tau Wedel posted:That makes sense. There's still some cards where I'd want to prioritize upgrading (Defragment and Genetic Algorithm in particular), but I have had some late-game situations where I was at full health but the only upgrades available amounted to 3-4 extra points of damage. I might have been able to rest earlier and still have time to get the important cards upgraded. Upgrading genetic algorithm is a trap, it doesn't really matter if it blocks for 50 vs 80, it'll do its job regardless. Maybe if you luck out on calipers it'll make a difference but mostly it's overkill.
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May 23, 2021 19:38
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Defect also has amazing shop relics, and if you can snatch up an early Anchor or something that's great too
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May 23, 2021 19:42
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Self Repair is also fantastic since it lets you heal off chip early damage after you're safely set up, and worst case it's still an ok block card (that also synergizes with power builds)
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May 23, 2021 21:10
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I picked this game back up, trying to dissect some of the experience, ideas, and/or balance for a game idea I had which, mechanically, is "staple Library of Ruina's combat mechanics to a roguelike instead of a full-length RPG", and it turns out that I forgot how to play since I'm not getting to the end of Act 2 on these ending attempt runs with Ironclad. Is there any archetypes that work better for clearing the ending or do I just need to hack at it until I absorb enough to play better?
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May 23, 2021 22:26
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AweStriker posted:I picked this game back up, trying to dissect some of the experience, ideas, and/or balance for a game idea I had which, mechanically, is "staple Library of Ruina's combat mechanics to a roguelike instead of a full-length RPG", and it turns out that I forgot how to play since I'm not getting to the end of Act 2 on these ending attempt runs with Ironclad. Is there any archetypes that work better for clearing the ending or do I just need to hack at it until I absorb enough to play better? Post some pics of your run histories (Main Menu, Statistics, Run History), so we have an idea of what you're doing right now. StS isn't really about archetypes, it's about building for your next challenge. In the first 5 floors, you're building to beat the act 1 elites. Mostly via improving your damage. Then you build to beat the act 1 boss. For act 2, you need more defense than you needed for act 1, while also starting to scale your damage up. For act 3's elites you need to be able to deal with high damage minions, and a high hp fight that starts ramping damage hard after some charge up turns. Then you have to deal with the act 3 bosses, which each have their own gimmicks. And eventually you'll have to think about the heart, which has high damage and blocking requirements, while also forcing you to give up a relic and campfire during the earlier acts.
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May 23, 2021 23:42
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Yeah, the "force an archetype" thing is fun and effective when it works, but it often leaves you exposed to fights that you can't reasonably counter. If you watch top streamers play, they'll often take "bad" cards that, at that moment, are what they need to beat an upcoming Gremlin Nob, Slime Boss, or whatever is pending. Once you take the "what is my next challenge and what is the best option I'm being offered to beat it" approach, you'll be more successful. See the recent conversation where instead of forcing an orb block deck, you may take some non-orb block cards because you haven't lucked into the ideal frost orb spam setup yet, and a half-assed frost setup isn't gonna cut it against SLIME CRUSH or other big attacks against you.
Shine fucked around with this message at 23:51 on May 23, 2021 |
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May 23, 2021 23:48
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jetz0r posted:Post some pics of your run histories (Main Menu, Statistics, Run History), so we have an idea of what you're doing right now. I put my last three runs in an imgur album here. I'll keep adding to this as I keep playing. AweStriker fucked around with this message at 04:11 on May 24, 2021 |
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May 24, 2021 04:00
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AweStriker posted:I put my last three runs in an imgur album here. I'll keep adding to this as I keep playing. well, first problem: you've taken Flex on every single run, stop doing that. also Heavy Blade with no strength support other than Flex, twice??? Sword Boomerang and Twin Strike are fine str scaling cards that do decent damage on their own, Heavy Blade is pretty bad when you don't already have lots of +str available. 2x Demon Form is very expensive and almost entirely redundant. it does increase your odds of seeing it early on but not enough to be worth the dead weight imo you seem to be doing a *lot* of resting, it's generally better to play it risky and take upgrades unless you think the health will let you take on an extra elite. especially early on, you usually want to be greedy when you just started and don't have any time invested in the run.
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May 24, 2021 04:20
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AweStriker posted:I put my last three runs in an imgur album here. I'll keep adding to this as I keep playing. I think you'll figure this out as you play but some quick tips: 1. Clash is really bad 2. Flex is usually bad (without card draw or artifact charges) 3. If the boss is Guardian you will want to pick more block cards than you normally would 4. Don't overload on expensive powers, demon form and barricade can easily be curses early on With the really quick deaths, I wouldn't be surprised if you're approaching corridor fights wrong and taking too much damage during the run as well. There's no shame in deciding you can't survive the next elite fight and changing your routing towards a campfire.
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May 24, 2021 04:23
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AweStriker posted:I put my last three runs in an imgur album here. I'll keep adding to this as I keep playing. Hit more campfires and use them to upgrade either Bash or a good attack you picked up early. That will give you the damage you need to kill those elites. A good rule of thumb is that you want three hallway fights and then an upgrade and then an elite as quickly as possible. Shoot for at least two elites and two campfires (plus the one at the end of the act) in the first act.
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May 24, 2021 04:34
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AweStriker posted:I put my last three runs in an imgur album here. I'll keep adding to this as I keep playing. The decks are a little bad, but besides double Demon Form, they're serviceable. You're low on upgrades. But are fighting ~2 elites per an act, so that's good. I think you mostly need to play more and improve you in battle skills. You could check out some streamers like Baalorlord or Jorbs to see how they play through act 1 on the hardest difficulty. Or skim through random pages in this thread, cause we're usually discussing some kind of strategy stuff. Remember not to focus on the wrong things during fights. Only the stats and resources that carry over between battles really matter. Health at end of fight compared to start, gold, cards in your deck, card upgrades, potions, and relics are the things that matter. Health is obviously important, mostly because you lose when it hits 0, but it's also a resource that can be traded (willingly or not) in events and battles for those other resources. You shouldn't waste health, but you also don't need to stay at full health. A lot of enemies get stronger as battles progress, so trying to full block every turn gets progressively harder. It's a smarter strategy to take some full or partial hits early on against the bird cultist in order to kill him before he starts hitting for more than you possibly block. At your Ascension 0 level, you get a full heal after beating the boss of each act. So you want to trade your health for upgrades (campfires) or relics (elites) in a way that leaves you in the best position to beat your current act and bring the most resources into the next act.
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May 24, 2021 09:04
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The way I look at STS is each point on the map is a simple function of what you bring in and what you take out. If you're looking at taking a little extra damage on a turn to get more damage in, you need to think ahead and see if you really need to do it or if you can play an extra turn or two. It doesn't matter what you do inside a fight really, just come out with the best combination of health/potions/gold etc. One of the other ways to improve is to always look at what boss you're facing in the act and shape your goals around that. Different bosses have very different deck requirements to beat. Same goes for key fights in each act, it's really only a few that will decide if a run fails. Birds can either be a free win or a total run killer depending on if you have an answer for them, as a good example.
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May 24, 2021 09:37
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WarpedLichen posted:There's no shame in deciding you can't survive the next elite fight and changing your routing towards a campfire. wtf, yes there is!!
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May 24, 2021 10:06
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jetz0r posted:You could check out some streamers like Baalorlord or Jorbs to see how they play through act 1 on the hardest difficulty. Good advice, but if it's specifically Ironclad help you need then watch Blem1 instead. He's the current A20 streak WR holder, having put together an 11-win run and matching Lifecoach for win% right now. For Silent you can watch RevelationNine, who is playing A20 Silent exclusively now.
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May 24, 2021 10:55
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BurritoJustice posted:The way I look at STS is each point on the map is a simple function of what you bring in and what you take out. If you're looking at taking a little extra damage on a turn to get more damage in, you need to think ahead and see if you really need to do it or if you can play an extra turn or two. It doesn't matter what you do inside a fight really, just come out with the best combination of health/potions/gold etc. I find the biggest run killers are the slaver pack, giant knife, and stone head. Also scale crab if you’re running Silent. Boss wise the only one aside from the heart itself that ever seems to truly kick my rear end is The Champ. If you don’t have enormous burst that you can pull off more than once, good chance he ends.
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May 24, 2021 11:08
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If you have “an answer” for Champ, he’s the easiest. If you don’t have an answer for Champ, you are dead.
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May 24, 2021 13:40
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He's basically just a check for whether your deck has scaling. He doesn't really do much until you get him below half health so even if your scaling is slow or awkward you can still usually win.
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May 24, 2021 13:58
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Tau Wedel posted:I'll keep that in mind, thanks. I'm still a bit too focused on picking damage-dealing cards in most of Act 1, because that's what works for the Ironclad and the Silent. I hadn't really been thinking much about Steam Barrier, but now that you mention it it's suddenly obvious to me that it's designed precisely to provide protection while you get your orbs and powers set up. Zero-cost block that gets weaker in the long run. I really should have realized that. Don't forget that both the guardians and Laughoutloudagain are greatly helped by good blocking.
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May 24, 2021 15:39
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jetz0r posted:The decks are a little bad, but besides double Demon Form, they're serviceable. You're low on upgrades. But are fighting ~2 elites per an act, so that's good. I think you mostly need to play more and improve you in battle skills. I’m on Ascension 1, actually (having unlocked it for everyone not named Watcher years ago). I know enough that more Elites can sometimes be easier than less since you get more relics. As for being short upgrades, that might be a function of me wanting to burn a camp on Recall to grab the key while the battles are easier. Is that a mistake?
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May 24, 2021 15:45
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AweStriker posted:As for being short upgrades, that might be a function of me wanting to burn a camp on Recall to grab the key while the battles are easier. Is that a mistake?
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May 24, 2021 15:53
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^^agreeing with this Typically the red key gets picked up at either the last campfire (floor 49) or your second to last campfire, if you want to have flexibility at the very last one. It's rare to see a top player take the red key before act 3, although it does happen from time to time.
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May 24, 2021 16:01
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Yeah, the only time I see players take Red Key before act 3 is when you have Fusion Hammer, need to path through a campfire and are at full health so there's nothing else useful to do there. In general, Act 3 is a cakewalk compared to Act 1/2 until you get to the boss.
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May 24, 2021 16:12
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The same logic applies to the blue key too. Taking it in act 3 means you're down a relic for half an act, instead of 5/6ths of the game. It's only worth taking it early if you get a relic that does absolutely nothing, like bottles in a deck with no good targets. Bad relics like the boot still matter if you get them in act 1, cheating out every damage you can find is still important before your deck takes off.
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May 24, 2021 16:14
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i like the Downfall mod giving you incentive to get the keys early, as they act as relics once you pay at a campfire to process them
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May 24, 2021 16:20
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Something a lot of people miss is that there is a lot of frontloaded difficulty in StS. You absolutely need to take early damage cards if you want to fight Act 1 elites for instance even if they're not going to be great in the late game because otherwise you'll absolutely lose the damage race vs Lagavulin or Gremlin Nob. Early on you are scraping for every scrap you can get or you'll hit a wall and just die. Act 3 is mostly victory lap stuff until you hit the ultimate challenge of the final boss/Act 4. And if you aren't going for Act 4 and are below Asc. 20 your biggest challenge will almost certainly be the Act 2 boss fight.
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May 24, 2021 16:20
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Thanks for your help with the Defect, everyone. I just had a run where I did get offered Reprogram early and tried not taking orb-related cards, and it worked out to a victory.  More resting definitely helped as well; run history tells me that I rested at six of the eight rest sites I went through. It's an interesting contrast with the Ironclad, where my last victory had me resting at zero of the eight sites I visited.A neat example of the "take what you need" principle being discussed: I was offered a Barrage about midway through Act 1 but didn't take it, since I wasn't playing cards that channel orbs. But I did pick up a Barrage+ in early Act 3. At that point I'd obtained Nuclear Battery from the Act 2 boss so that I always had a Plasma orb hanging around, and since I'd removed Dualcast from my deck I also had the (useless) Lightning orb from Cracked Core. In that situation Barrage+ was a perfectly respectable 12 damage, with strength counting double. I picked up Compile Driver+ for similar reasons; I hadn't found much card draw, so a consistent draw 2 was very useful. It's nice how cards like that can make Cracked Core useful even when you're playing Reprogram.
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May 24, 2021 16:45
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Downfall is cool, but gosh the reverse spire putting guaranteed campfires at the start of act and none before the boss is a big kick in the pants.
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May 24, 2021 18:01
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AweStriker posted:I’m on Ascension 1, actually (having unlocked it for everyone not named Watcher years ago). I know enough that more Elites can sometimes be easier than less since you get more relics. Oh, well, partial healing after bosses doesn't kick in till some time after A10, afair. It's extremely rare that I take the key from the early campfires. Because having an upgrade from act 1 helps you through out the whole run, including your at your weakest point, where you need upgrades the most, act 1. I usually get the keys from campfires and chests as late as possible. Either in the last or second to last ones in act 3. Main exception is if there's a terrible relic in a chest, dumpster juzu bracelet for a key every time.
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May 24, 2021 18:11
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jetz0r posted:Oh, well, partial healing after bosses doesn't kick in till some time after A10, afair. I'll take Juzu in Act 1 because Act 2 has excellent events and lovely hallway fights.
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May 24, 2021 18:40
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Yeah I am baffled by Juzu hate. It's one of my favorite things to see in Act 1.
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May 24, 2021 18:42
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The logic is a.) you don't hit that many fights in ? spots per run (it'll generally happen once or twice per run after the point at which you find bracelet) and b.) the average event isn't that much more beneficial than the average fight. I still take it because I like to imagine turning avocado rat into simplicity/elegance but the odds of that happening are incredibly low.
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May 24, 2021 18:48
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Also while Act 2 has a lot of insanely good events, Acts 1 and 3 are decidedly more mixed and have a lot of guaranteed damage poo poo or ones that are worse than a hallway fight in terms of rewards.
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May 24, 2021 18:55
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Irony.or.Death posted:Yeah I am baffled by Juzu hate. It's one of my favorite things to see in Act 1. Here's the common relic list, pick the ones that are worth skipping in act 1 to get a key. Akabeko Anchor AncientTeaSet ArtofWar BagofMarbles BagofPreparation BloodVial BronzeScales CentennialPuzzle CeramicFish DreamCatcher HappyFlower JuzuBracelet Lantern MawBank MealTicket Nunchaku OddlySmoothStone Omamori Orichalcum PenNib PotionBelt PreservedInsect RegalPillow SmilingMask Strawberry Boot TinyChest ToyOrnithopter Vajra WarPaint Whetstone There's only a few that I would consider skipping then, like Tiny chest, Juzu, ceramic fish, dream catcher, and maw bank. Plus art of war and boot depending on the class/deck.
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May 24, 2021 19:22
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jetz0r posted:the ones that are worth skipping in act 1 to get a key.
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May 24, 2021 19:29
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I have never made a build that made art of war work. I tend to play frontloaded damage builds and just tank hits to the face. I'm also very bad at this game though. It also seems like fate that war paint and whetstone always upgrade my worst cards.
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May 24, 2021 19:29
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Dream Catcher is the only thing on that list I'd regularly skip act 1. Something like Ceramic Fish sucks but I'd rather get a couple hundred gold over the course of the game than gamble on getting something in the act 3 chest that completely turns around the last leg.metachronos posted:I have never made a build that made art of war work. I tend to play frontloaded damage builds and just tank hits to the face. I'm also very bad at this game though. I don't like to build around Art of War, I just view it as insurance against lovely draws.
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May 24, 2021 19:30
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