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Vesi posted:inside EU it kind of makes sense, at least the central areas it can be hard to tell where one country begins on the other hand you really weren't getting across the italian border during their first wave. belgium shutdown the dutch border pretty hardcore too.
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May 25, 2021 12:59
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Vesi posted:inside EU it kind of makes sense, at least the central areas it can be hard to tell where one country begins There's parts of Belgium / Netherlands where the border is an enclave in a town's high street.
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May 25, 2021 12:59
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Nam Taf posted:I love this argument because it implies that there's simply no way to control land borders. Obviously it's not impossible to shut down a land border but it's much harder than a sea border. Collateral Damage fucked around with this message at 13:08 on May 25, 2021 |
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May 25, 2021 13:01
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LimburgLimbo posted:lol I love the slingshot people have done between "wow look at those authoritarian assholes literally locking people in their homes, putting guards at every street corner, and tracking every store you go to! Typical China haha" early in the pandemic to "it's literally impossible that China stopped COVID!" now As of about two weeks ago, Japan's health system was overwhelmed, and it's not the first time during this pandemic. Masks aren't a magic shield, and many Japanese businesses have refused to switch to work from home. Holding Japan up as an example of successful containment doesn't really work, and I'm dubious about claims that China managed it. Aus and New Zealand have low density cities, bad public transport and very high rates of car ownership. Basically I'm saying that all humans everywhere are filthy and if any containment succeeded, it was more due to luck than effective management.
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May 25, 2021 13:32
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Dongsturm posted:I'm dubious about claims that China managed it. This just makes you look either very ignorant or like a reality denying crazy person. There might be remote places where lockdown measures weren’t enforced rigorously and that have high rates of COVID transmission, but that’s effectively being covered up, but I guarantee you COVID was effectively managed in big cities and developed areas of the country.
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May 25, 2021 13:40
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Heithinn Grasida posted:This just makes you look either very ignorant or like a reality denying crazy person. Yeah, you're right. Covid is completely contained in China, Uighurs are volunteering for re-education camps, and China is leading the world in an open and trustworthy government. I'm arguing with the thread wumao, aren't I?
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May 25, 2021 13:53
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BrigadierSensible posted:I have heard vague rumours that Singapore might want to join Aus and NZ in the travel bubble. But lord knows how accurate said rumours are, or when/if it would actually happen Probably true, but not for a long while considering we’re in lockdown 1.5 again. Also each time we attempted to officially start the SG - HK travel bubble, cases went on the upswing lol.
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May 25, 2021 13:55
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Dongsturm posted:I'm arguing with the thread wumao, aren't I? No, you’re not. I’m much softer on China than most posters here, but I despise the CCP’s actions in Xinjiang and I detest their brand of right wing authoritarianism. That said, I live in China. People are not loving dying left and right from COVID. Who knows, the numbers might be much higher than the official numbers that have been released, there might be certain areas where outbreaks are being covered up, but it’s basically been under control since May 2020.
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May 25, 2021 13:58
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Heithinn Grasida posted:No, you’re not. I’m much softer on China than most posters here, but I despise the CCP’s actions in Xinjiang and I detest their brand of right wing authoritarianism. That said, I live in China. People are not loving dying left and right from COVID. Who knows, the numbers might be much higher than the official numbers that have been released, there might be certain areas where outbreaks are being covered up, but it’s basically been under control since May 2020. Fair enough. I appreciate that your area may have good control (or be lucky), but the population density in the big cities makes it almost inevitable that it will spread. Stories about boarding up doors and curfews sound dramatic but they aren't really effective because people will find a way to do what they want regardless, and the authoritarian stuff just means they get good at lieing about it. Possibly corona rates are low because testing positive for it could result in punishment (for violating curfew), so people are careful not to take tests if they think they have it. This has already happened in Australia, so I'm not doing "China bad", I'm doing "China same as everyone else"
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May 25, 2021 14:16
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Dongsturm posted:and I'm dubious about claims that China managed it. I'm in China right now, I've been here non stop since last January, and it's managed it. Beijing, a city of 21 million people, has zero cases. I wear a mask to work and the store, my kids wear masks to school. Apart from that Covid doesn't exist for us. (Except we ain't going back to our home countries in the foreseeable future, but that's not really china's problem).
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May 25, 2021 14:17
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We've discussed this already, it's not actually that conceptually difficult to grasp. China had a hard lockdown enforced at the local neighbourhood level with massive civilian compliance and lots of hi tech surveillance, and that was enough to effectively wipe out covid if you combine it with very strict border quarantine procedures and mass testing whenever you inevitably get a small outbreak here and there. China treats even a single case as a massive problem (see Guangzhou last week). If you are currently flying domestically out of Guangdong province you have to take a mandatory covid test in your arrival city. Because they had one case.
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May 25, 2021 14:19
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SerCypher posted:Politics aside, China has been among the safest places you could go if you are concerned about the virus. Yeah, I didn't factor Covid into that. More along the lines of going to Asia's 2021 equivalent of 1941-era Nazi Germany.
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May 25, 2021 14:31
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Rabelais D posted:We've discussed this already, it's not actually that conceptually difficult to grasp... you inevitably get a small outbreak here and there...they had one case. I think I'm grasping it just fine. Posting "I don't see it therefore it doesn't exist" isn't a convincing argument, because most people posting here have a life situation that allows them to at least partially control their environment. Life for other people is different, which is why there are "inevitable outbreaks".
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May 25, 2021 14:32
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Dongsturm posted:I think I'm grasping it just fine. Posting "I don't see it but my feelings tell me it must be there." isn't really all that convincing either...
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May 25, 2021 14:39
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BrigadierSensible posted:https://twitter.com/JoeXu/status/1396910262494457856 One country's heel is another country's babyface: see the Hart Foundation, Fritz Von Erich, Mussolini, etc.
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May 25, 2021 14:42
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i don't believe the chinese covid data and, let me blow your mind, gently caress america too. sinovac also has terrible rates of efficacy and as we've seen repeatedly throughout this thing, you can massage your numbers if you want to by testing or not testing (i'm looking at you florida and texas and china)quote:People are not loving dying left and right from COVID. covid is real but people aren't dying 'left and right' from this in the US either. 600k out of 330 million is too many though! stellers bae fucked around with this message at 14:45 on May 25, 2021 |
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May 25, 2021 14:42
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Dongsturm posted:As of about two weeks ago, Japan's health system was overwhelmed, and it's not the first time during this pandemic. Japan, with a population 1/3rd that of the US, has *massively* fewer deaths than the US. 12k confirmed *and* excess deaths for available periods are mostly in line with that or *lower* than expected, unlike the US where they’re higher. This is with a high urban population that also largely moves by crowded public transit. And like I said, Japan is not a great example per se, but they’re an example of some place that managed to keep things from spiraling too bad while really doing gently caress all for lockdown. If they had actually done a full lockdown they could probably have almost completely shut down COVID. Dongsturm posted:I think I'm grasping it just fine. This doesn’t even make sense insofar as displaying how China must actually have rampant COVID despite literally every evidence to the contrary - including people literally there and some on whom aren’t the biggest fans of China - saying otherwise. “I’m literally here and see no evince of a massive coverup of rampant deadly disease” is actually a pretty convincing argument. Much more so than “well, uh, I don’t believe u”. Edit: LITERALLY LimburgLimbo fucked around with this message at 14:46 on May 25, 2021 |
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May 25, 2021 14:44
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LimburgLimbo posted:This doesn’t even make sense insofar as displaying how China must actually have rampant COVID despite literally every evidence to the contrary - including people literally there and some on whom aren’t the biggest fans of China - saying otherwise. “I’m literally here and see no evince of a massive coverup of rampant deadly disease” is actually a pretty convincing argument. Much more so than “well, uh, I don’t believe u”. i'm literally in the US and I don't 'see' evidence of covid either?
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May 25, 2021 14:47
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stellers bae posted:i'm literally in the US and I don't 'see' evidence of covid either? Okay then you’re bad at looking
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May 25, 2021 14:51
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Dongsturm posted:I think I'm grasping it just fine. This is exactly the kind of reasoning you get from people in China regarding the US. “Yeah, you think you have more social freedoms, but actually you have less freedom than we do in China — you just don’t know it.” It’s the same kind of reasoning you hear from wumaos and tankless, too — to ignore everything that people actually from or living in a place say and believe what makes you feel righteous about your ideology. The CCP can be assholes on the wrong side of history and still have managed COVID competently after the initial coverup. stellers bae posted:i'm literally in the US and I don't 'see' evidence of covid either? You’re only proving you have no point of comparison.
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May 25, 2021 14:53
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SMEGMA_MAIL posted:Okay then you’re bad at looking you're right, i just realized that the speed bumps in my neighborhood were actually covid corpses
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May 25, 2021 15:38
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What "evidence" would you expect to see? Until the pandemic completely overwhelms the hospitals, there isn't much an average person would notice because people aren't just dropping dead in the streets. I was literally in one of the worst hit countries in the world for a while but nothing looked different unless you worked in a hospital. According to the data, around a dozen people died yesterday. If it was 250 like at the peak, how could I possibly tell unless someone released the real number. That is not to say that china is now actually worse than India and there's a massive coverup of course.
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May 25, 2021 15:42
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I actually love posts like that because it’s like a shibboleth for “never leaves the house”
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May 25, 2021 15:43
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I have relatives in third/fourth tier cities and also out in the rural areas, and last year the lockdowns were serious, enforced, and compliance was high. I have no doubt that Covid was all but eliminated. Are the official numbers accurate? Hell no, but they're not runaway outbreak territory. The CCP'S surveillance setup is perfect for tracking Covid and enforcing lockdowns, and it worked. *Not praising it's intended purpose.
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May 25, 2021 15:48
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I was a medsurg nurse moved to the ICU’s covid unit during the height of the pandemic gently caress you
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May 25, 2021 15:49
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mobby_6kl posted:What "evidence" would you expect to see? Until the pandemic completely overwhelms the hospitals, there isn't much an average person would notice because people aren't just dropping dead in the streets. I'd expect to see all the evidence I saw the last three times there was an outbreak in Beijing: everything non-essential would close, traffic would drop to almost nothing, I'd have to show ID and have my temperature taken at the single open entrance to my neighborhood (all the others being locked). I'd have to fill in several surveys on WeChat about my movements for the last x number of days and scan a QR code with one WeChat mini app and have my temperature checked at the entrance to any indoor space, also show a green code on the other health mini app in WeChat. The streets of my neighborhood would be fogged with disinfectant, all deliveries would go to the main entrance, (you can't actually stop the mighty kuaidi, unless you are willing to use crew served weapons), my kids would begin the slow descent into madness that is online school and my wife would be very happy and bake a shitload.
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May 25, 2021 15:56
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I get that its comforting to think the CCP is bad and also hilariously incompetent in all respects, but sadly that's not the case. The CCP and local governments can be ruthlessly competent when they need to be. They just landed and drove a Rover on mars for example, something only the US has been able to accomplish. China basically did everything a country can possibly do in order to lock down, to the point where kids and pets died of starvation because parents were locked down in different areas. It also turned all its draconian state surveillance and movement controls to the task of identifying and stopping the infected. It's not surprising they got it under control.
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May 25, 2021 17:17
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I don't think its unreasonable to look at the stack of lies and falsehoods that China has deliberately propagated about other aspects of their society and conclude that they can't be trusted to tell the truth about their covid numbers. We only have their word that they told the truth and how trustworthy has that been in the past? China probably does have covid under control but the CCP has built a reputation for lies and general untrustworthiness. If people outside China point to China's history of lies and oppression and say "I don't trust their covid numbers because of their established history" then....that sucks for China but the CCP only has themselves to blame.
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May 25, 2021 17:59
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you can also consider how hard it is to hide people massively getting hospitalized and dying, as you can see in that other authoritarian hellhole, india
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May 25, 2021 18:04
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Grand Fromage posted:What are China tankies? lmao
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May 25, 2021 18:21
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Jeoh posted:you can also consider how hard it is to hide people massively getting hospitalized and dying, as you can see in that other authoritarian hellhole, india I could've sworn I remember seeing articles pointing out exactly that. Something about crematoriums being ran 24/7 back during the early stages of COVID even as official Chinese figures were reporting the situation as under control. I might be confusing the country though, but I definitely remember it was satellite imagery poking holes in an official narrative.
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May 25, 2021 18:52
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HIJK posted:I don't think its unreasonable to look at the stack of lies and falsehoods that China has deliberately propagated about other aspects of their society and conclude that they can't be trusted to tell the truth about their covid numbers. I think it’s reasonable to be skeptical and to consider other factors/evidence when looking at China’s claims. Their numbers for deaths from the initial are also probably not accurate and significant higher (much like in the US research the UofW suggests the true death toll is about twice what’s currently counted, and around 1mm). I think it’s completely unreasonable to ignore *every shred of evidence* that’s there’s no major ongoing outbreaks in China right now, and claim that it’s still rampaging. Based on what? China bad? Democratic governments are the best have no flaws or downsides? The racist assumption that Asians are stupid and incompetent and couldn’t possibly do better than white majority western democracies? Skepticism is always due with claims from authoritarian states but when it comes to controlling disease authoritarian control is *exactly what you want*, because individual shortsighted self-serving actions and what prolong and exacerbate spread.
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May 25, 2021 21:13
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ishikabibble posted:I could've sworn I remember seeing articles pointing out exactly that. Something about crematoriums being ran 24/7 back during the early stages of COVID even as official Chinese figures were reporting the situation as under control. I might be confusing the country though, but I definitely remember it was satellite imagery poking holes in an official narrative. The reason you don’t hear about that anymore is because it was bullshit: https://fullfact.org/health/satellites-wuhan-sulphur-dioxide-coronavirus/ Not familiar with this site per se but I recall when these claims were found to be false and just grabbed something that laid out the evidence; you can check the links in the article for details. Check all the links to the original articles linked in that page too; most 404 as of now, and the ones that still link were updated a couple weeks later to talk about how it was a mistake/hoax that satellite data disproves China’s numbers. This is a good example of the issue with these things though; someone will claim to have solid evidence of some claim, it jives with someone’s presumptions and gets mentally filed under true, meanwhile it gets found to be false and retracted, but far fewer people notice that than the initial false claims. This of course happens constantly, and often by design with Fox News et al. Edit: I meant to say to your credit you personally don’t bring it forth as a sure-thing slam dunk and correctly note it as something your remember but are unsure about, but there’s lots of people who don’t have the wherewithal to do so LimburgLimbo fucked around with this message at 21:51 on May 25, 2021 |
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May 25, 2021 21:26
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I believe that China probably has it mostly under control in the cities. It's the more remote, rural areas I'm dubious about because those places are very poor, have little to no health infrastructure, are corrupt as gently caress, and filled with old people. Even if the Chinese government was earnestly and in good faith trying to find and accurately report cases in those areas I don't think that they could do it. Even getting accurate census data from those places is pretty much impossible.
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May 25, 2021 22:39
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https://www.bbc.com/news/technology-57101248 CCP use AI to surveil Uyghurs for unharmonious facial expressions.
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May 26, 2021 01:59
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A beautiful world with beautiful places to visit
Barudak fucked around with this message at 16:12 on Jun 28, 2021 |
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May 26, 2021 02:02
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Automatic Slim posted:https://www.bbc.com/news/technology-57101248 gently caress that’s bleak
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May 26, 2021 02:04
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Barudak posted:My family in china keeps telling me to only get the China vaccine and not take ones made anywhere else. Good advice, how else is Hauwei and ZTE going to get 5G into the west?
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May 26, 2021 03:00
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mobby_6kl posted:What "evidence" would you expect to see? Until the pandemic completely overwhelms the hospitals, there isn't much an average person would notice because people aren't just dropping dead in the streets. And this was exactly what we did see in China back when everything was absolutely out of control, when the virus first hit. It was impossible to avoid being aware that something very serious was happening, at least in the cities/suburbs. The hospitals were chaos, the population density is high enough that, when people start getting it, you see it (or at least see them getting hauled away.) If you don't see it, people talk and you hear about it. That's just not the case now. In Zhengzhou we did have a case show up recently (maybe 3 months ago or so?) that wasn't really reported on until after (and I remember seriously doubting the official story. It was on of those 'probably came on imported seafood!' kind of things.) But before that pictures of the ambulance, the guys in their big hazmat suits, the blocked off door etc were all over the place, a little bit of panic had started. If it was anything like half the rest of the world, you'd see it in China, people would know. The party will say what it says but people aren't stupid, they talk and word gets out all the time when something big is happening.
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May 26, 2021 03:18
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Yeah I've family who live in Wuhan/surrounding areas and Im pretty dang sure its under control there, even in rural areas. They also actually complied with the government (by force, obv) to not do a goddamn thing for like 2 months.
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May 26, 2021 03:33
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