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Haiti being tutorial island would be rad for all the reasons people say, but also because it would piss off the fascists.
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May 26, 2021 11:28
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Gort posted:There's a big difference between, "Do you want to murder thousands Y/N" and "Do you want to murder thousands, by the way if you answer no thousands will die in a civil war and half your military will be destroyed immediately prior to a Nazi invasion Y/N" Only if your big on ends justifies the means
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May 26, 2021 11:33
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Nitrousoxide posted:Haiti being tutorial island would be rad for all the reasons people say, but also because it would piss off the fascists. I like the idea, but they have no iron, they have no coal, they have no pop... Maybe for an advanced tutorial covering diplo/politics or more niche strategies but I don't think you'll be able to do much with them industrially.
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May 26, 2021 11:38
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Sounds like a good way to show off what market groups do now so you can get those goods.
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May 26, 2021 12:02
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All the more reason Paradox games should be decoupled from historical settings, since Paradox routinely fails to grapple with historical atrocities 
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May 26, 2021 13:00
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I really doubt the thinking behind the way the purges work was that Paradox is a hive of Grover Furr acolytes and more like "what if there was a way Trotsky could become leader lol".
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May 26, 2021 13:19
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Zedhe Khoja posted:I really doubt the thinking behind the way the purges work was that Paradox is a hive of Grover Furr acolytes and more like "what if there was a way Trotsky could become leader lol". yeah, and they probably wanted to keep having the purges debuff for the Soviets but somehow introduce a bit of control to it.
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May 26, 2021 13:26
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CharlestheHammer posted:Only if your big on ends justifies the means I feel like "facing imminent invasion from a fascist state which is rapidly remilitarising" is a time where these sorts of arguments have a lot of merit
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May 26, 2021 14:26
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RabidWeasel posted:I feel like "facing imminent invasion from a fascist state which is rapidly remilitarising" is a time where these sorts of arguments have a lot of merit Yeah, those arguments would only have no merit in a dictatorship that proclaims it has no enemies and there's no danger to the state. Sadly we have yet to see a dictatorship like that.
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May 26, 2021 14:43
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RabidWeasel posted:I feel like "facing imminent invasion from a fascist state which is rapidly remilitarising" is a time where these sorts of arguments have a lot of merit Facing imminent invasion by a fascist state wasn't really part of the reasoning of the Great Purge.
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May 26, 2021 14:55
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Gentlemen, please! This is the war mapmode!
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May 26, 2021 15:07
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Randarkman posted:Facing imminent invasion by a fascist state wasn't really part of the reasoning of the Great Purge. This is in the context of "yes there is actually an imminent Trotskyist coup" rather than a historical observation
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May 26, 2021 15:07
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Zedhe Khoja posted:I really doubt the thinking behind the way the purges work was that Paradox is a hive of Grover Furr acolytes and more like "what if there was a way Trotsky could become leader lol".
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May 26, 2021 15:08
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Nitrousoxide posted:It's where the Jan Mayen hyper-empire is centered. We really need a paradox map game set during the Finno-Korean hyperwar of 50,000 BCE.
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May 26, 2021 15:09
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Fascist or occasionally monarchist path is p much always the best in HOI. Did you know that if Hungary invited the Habsburgs back the whole rest of the Empire would've peacefully submitted to hungarian domination? Also Greater Estonia lol
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May 26, 2021 15:10
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Edgar Allen Ho posted:Fascist or occasionally monarchist path is p much always the best in HOI. Did you know that if Hungary invited the Habsburgs back the whole rest of the Empire would've peacefully submitted to hungarian domination? Eh, communist is better in the Balkans because if you rush it down and do it effectively you can get the entire Balkans and even parts of turkey as core territory - effectively making you a great power.
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May 26, 2021 15:14
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Can we take the ww2 war crimes chat to the hoi4 thread or something? We're trying to talk about 19th century war crimes in this thread
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May 26, 2021 15:16
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WW2 war crimes are decidedly gauche, only refined and gentlemanly war crimes itt please
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May 26, 2021 15:18
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It'd be amazing if the new province and state system meant we could draw straight line borders across the map after Great Wars
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May 26, 2021 15:29
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Gibraltar now modeled in appropriate size.
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May 26, 2021 15:35
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AnEdgelord posted:Can we take the ww2 war crimes chat to the hoi4 thread or something? We're trying to talk about 19th century war crimes in this thread Can't wait to play as Belgium, invent Art Nouveau and *checks notes* oh, oh yikes
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May 26, 2021 15:40
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hot cocoa on the couch posted:WW2 war crimes are decidedly gauche, only refined and gentlemanly war crimes itt please I can only get hard when doing war crimes from my dirigible. *adjusts monocle*
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May 26, 2021 15:49
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$4.99 optional cosmetic expansion that adds goggles to everyone's top hats and reskins serf pops into automatons.
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May 26, 2021 15:51
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DrSunshine posted:$4.99 optional cosmetic expansion that adds goggles to everyone's top hats and reskins serf pops into automatons. That's gonna be a day-1 mod, c'mon now! What will take a while is porting over Synthetic Ascension.
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May 26, 2021 15:58
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Vasukhani posted:I wonder what new historical apologia this pdox game will foster Also, the Steam forums of course has someone crying because they removed the uncivilised name and replaced it with something more historical. Some guys are legit mad that places like Japan, Iran or Qing aren't painted as barbarians for *some* reason. Couldn't imagine what.
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May 26, 2021 16:00
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DrSunshine posted:$4.99 optional cosmetic expansion that adds goggles to everyone's top hats and reskins serf pops into automatons. Steampunk expansion would be a 19.99€ minimum.
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May 26, 2021 16:00
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BillBear posted:Won't be worse than the "uncivilised" stuff for virtually all of native Africa and Asia in Vicky 2, which was all sorts of yikes. It's clear Paradox have done plenty of learning and maturing since then, so if anything it'll probably come down to accidentally making ancaps the best form of government or something, which is more funny than anything else. playing as smaller "uncivs" was fun, you could make strong African states and stuff. that said, the it seemed mainly to be defined by if there were white people there, so
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May 26, 2021 16:09
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adhuin posted:Steampunk expansion would be a 19.99€ minimum. Come on board for my Victoria3 -> Stellaris mega campaign.  
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May 26, 2021 16:09
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BillBear posted:Won't be worse than the "uncivilised" stuff for virtually all of native Africa and Asia in Vicky 2, which was all sorts of yikes. It's clear Paradox have done plenty of learning and maturing since then, so if anything it'll probably come down to accidentally making ancaps the best form of government or something, which is more funny than anything else.  I suppose uncivilized is not quite racist enough for the period.
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May 26, 2021 16:12
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DrSunshine posted:Come on board for my Victoria3 -> Stellaris mega campaign. Almost as ancient as Vicky 2, it sill has tiles!
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May 26, 2021 16:13
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BillBear posted:Also, the Steam forums of course has someone crying because they removed the uncivilised name and replaced it with something more historical. Some guys are legit mad that places like Japan, Iran or Qing aren't painted as barbarians for *some* reason. Couldn't imagine what. What'd they replace it with?
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May 26, 2021 16:14
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Clarste posted:What'd they replace it with? Instead of being uncivilized there unrecognized. They play the same as other nations but lack any respect from recognized countries so they can be hosed with without consequence
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May 26, 2021 16:17
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Clarste posted:What'd they replace it with? Unrecognized states. Basically, the powers that be refuse to recognize your country as on the same level as them. Being unrecognized apparently doesn't give you any research penalties like being "uncivilized" like in V2, rather your road to industrialization is now just determined by your starting conditions, like your resources and the education/standard of living of your pops. EDIT: And yeah, the fact that the colonial powers of Europe can beat up on you for no penalty. You can even become a recognized power by defeating one in combat, like in the Russo-Japanese war. I really like this system because it highlights the Eurocentric/colonialist viewpoint.
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May 26, 2021 16:17
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BillBear posted:Won't be worse than the "uncivilised" stuff for virtually all of native Africa and Asia in Vicky 2, which was all sorts of yikes. It's clear Paradox have done plenty of learning and maturing since then, so if anything it'll probably come down to accidentally making ancaps the best form of government or something, which is more funny than anything else. I never really had an issue with "uncivilized" because the framing of the game was very clearly "this is how Europe sees the world", but changing it to "unrecognized" probably does at least make that framing more explicit. A problem people often seem to have with video games (or really, media in general) is that they assume depiction = endorsement, especially when it comes to simulations. Like I don't think Paradox genuinely believe that inventing machine guns to bring civilization to the savages is a good thing, but it is accurate to the way that the colonial powers viewed the world. This is a bit of a tangent but a lot of this probably stems from SimCity and how it was presented as basically just being a plain "city simulator", rather than representing a specific viewpoint (the model it uses came entirely from one book, a book which was not without controversy even at the time), and that sort of thinking has been carried forward to sims in general. If something is not extremely, blatantly satirical or otherwise makes its political motivations clear, people just assume it's meant to be a totally neutral depiction intended to reflect "reality". It's a tricky line to walk because Paradox seems to not like to make their political assumptions too explicit, but maybe they should. It would help avoid a lot of these arguments by at least demonstrating that they have thought about the issue and their reasoning for coming down a particular way in the game itself. Like you could still argue "maybe they shouldn't have done that" but if people were more aware of their reasoning then we at least would not have to just guess as to why they made those decisions and not get a lot of weird baseless speculation like "Paradox believes Stalin was right". There is an interesting blog series that was linked in the general Paradox thread a little while back, written by a history professor that is specifically digging into these political assumptions, which is worth a read: https://acoup.blog/2021/04/30/collections-teaching-paradox-europa-univeralis-iv-part-i-state-of-play/ (that link is to part 1, he's up to part 3 right now). Currently he's on EU4 but he is planning to get to the other games eventually and has specifically mentioned that he's very interested in diving into the framing behind Victoria 2.
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May 26, 2021 16:21
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DrSunshine posted:Unrecognized states. Basically, the powers that be refuse to recognize your country as on the same level as them. Being unrecognized apparently doesn't give you any research penalties like being "uncivilized" like in V2, rather your road to industrialization is now just determined by your starting conditions, like your resources and the education/standard of living of your pops. I really like the idea because it keeps the necessary racism you need to properly simulate the era, while also making it more clear that it's the countries in game being racist assholes.
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May 26, 2021 16:23
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Gaius Marius posted:Modeling the taping rebellion to be remotely close to historical is gonna be a hell of a doing Yeah, it was on a pretty huge scale. Millions died!
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May 26, 2021 16:27
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A question for Wiz: do you plan to do pre-launch Vicky 3 streams with cKnoor, like you did for Stellaris? Those were awesome, and got me to buy the game at launch. If yes, are you guys going to wear top hats?
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May 26, 2021 16:28
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MonsieurChoc posted:Yeah, it was on a pretty huge scale. Millions died! Kind of a random thing but something I would really like to see in Vicky 3 is just an "end of war roundup" where whenever you peace out for whatever reason, you get an overall report showing like, total casualties and economic damage to both sides. Just to really hammer home how many people died for those 10 feet of land. It's been a while since I played it but I think EU4 does something like this?
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May 26, 2021 16:29
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DrSunshine posted:Come on board for my Victoria3 -> Stellaris mega campaign. British being humanoid is a hot take AnoHito posted:I really like the idea because it keeps the necessary racism you need to properly simulate the era, while also making it more clear that it's the countries in game being racist assholes. I think a big issue with "unciv" too was that it posited that Japan in 1840 resembled any other colonial space more than a European state. Unciv wasnt only an external modifier, but effected the very nature of domestic gameplay.
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May 26, 2021 16:29
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Vasukhani posted:I think a big issue with "unciv" too was that it posited that Japan in 1840 resembled any other colonial space more than a European state. Unciv wasnt only an external modifier, but effected the very nature of domestic gameplay. This is something where the "local markets" thing could work really well - since fundamentally the problem all those old nations had was not really that they were just like, arbitrarily worse than everyone else, but that they did not have access to modern technology due to either decisions made by their own heads of state (as in the case of Japan or China and their extremely isolationist trade policies), or that they simply were not recognized as legitimate states capable of making trade agreements and were treated as "terra nullius" free for colonization, like most of Africa. So as an unrecognized nation the main challenge would be "if you can't make it yourself, you can't get it at all". This would still realistically handicap the unrecognized nations, while also still allowing them the potential to catch up by say, investing in their own military tech and just going "we'll just make our own artillery then". Although it seems like it would also make sense that lacking access to certain materials would hinder your technological development - I don't know if they are going to model this but it seems like something that wouldn't be hard to do (i.e. it would be a lot harder to develop new guns if you don't have any models to study. You could still do it, but it's more work).
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May 26, 2021 16:36
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